Most overpowered stealther poll:

[Haldar]

Using a slasher in offhand while thrust specced would not be the same as using 2 weapons with low LA spec as DW doesn't affect offhand damage.

wrong.

if u are 50 th/18 dw spec, and using thrust/slash, u'll swing for good damage with low variance with mainhand and for fairly low damage with huge variance with offhand, dual swing is not guaranteed

if SB is 50 axe/18 la spec, he'll swing for medium damage with low variance with mainhand and for low damage with huge variance with offhand, dual swing is guaranteed (thus mainhand dmg is medium compared from good for infi).

Hroft you might want to go view your medical record about your VNBoard postings.

muhahahaha, that one amuses me!



once i asked on hibbie rogue board - which spec will be better for me in a long run -- 50 sw 42cs 34 stl 31 env or 47 sw 46cs 34 stl 31 env or 42 sw 50cs 34 stl 31 env. Hibbies didnt answer, but belth came and accused me with overpoweredness with being able to spec too high with sw and cs -- while typical ns goes 39/44. he never saw that i am RR6 and all skills +11 and put nothing to LA...

ok, enough laughing...asp coding awaits...

 

[hammers]

Originally posted by donttouchpoopy



For my next trick I will be producing an equally biased list for why infils are underpowered - its easy enough to do.

well ?

 

[belth]

Originally posted by Hroft[BC]
if u are 50 th/18 dw spec, and using thrust/slash, u'll swing for good damage with low variance with mainhand and for fairly low damage with huge variance with offhand, dual swing is not guaranteed

if SB is 50 axe/18 la spec, he'll swing for medium damage with low variance with mainhand and for low damage with huge variance with offhand, dual swing is guaranteed (thus mainhand dmg is medium compared from good for infi).

I don't see DW affecting offhand damage there...

Originally posted by Hroft[BC]
once i asked on hibbie rogue board - which spec will be better for me in a long run -- 50 sw 42cs 34 stl 31 env or 47 sw 46cs 34 stl 31 env or 42 sw 50cs 34 stl 31 env. Hibbies didnt answer, but belth came and accused me with overpoweredness with being able to spec too high with sw and cs -- while typical ns goes 39/44. he never saw that i am RR6 and all skills +11 and put nothing to LA...

Ah, the time Celts were able to be NS. I fully answered in the belief you were asking for NS template - it's the hibbie rogue boards afterall isn't it? And people make the mistake of putting another realms weapon-specs name instead of the proper one in their templates quite often so I ignored that. How many times I've seen a middie mean Slash when they've written Sword, a hibbie mean Thrust with Pierce, an alb mean Blunt with Crush.

Did you click on the wrong forums or something when making that post?

+celt bladeshade>other assassins

 

[Haldar]

1.
calculation.
equal weapons, equal delays.
weapon base damage is 100.

50 th/18 dw infi.
coz spec is 50, he's doing 100-150% of damage, 125 avg
chance to swing offhand:
25%+0.68*18=37.24%
total damage per swing is
125+125*0.3724=171.55

50 ax/18 LA SB
axe spec is 50, he's doing 100-150% of damage, 125 avg
LA spec is 18, thus
at spec 1 dmg is 25%-125%
at spec (2/3 of lvl = 34) dmg is 75%-125%
this means that at spec 18 dmg will be 49%-125%, 87 avg.
125+87 dmg = 212 base dmg.
total damage per swing due to LA mechanics = 212*(0.625+18*0.0034)=145,4744.

got my point now?

now, if i redo the math for 50ax/50LA and 50 th/50 dw, i'll get
59% swing chance for dw and 198.75 dmg per swing for infi
and the same 198.75 dmg for SB.

the only thing that keeps LA better than DW (for a little bit) is a more reliable selfhaste effect when styling. With unstyled swings DW>LA.

2.
afaik in that time celt NSs were removed already, but i may be wrong. but why starting a whine if u saw me asking for a template for RR6 (!) and mentions swords (yes swords, not blades)? And i did it on hibbie board bcoz there were almost zero critblades on Midgard forum.....

 

[belth]

Originally posted by Hroft[BC]
2.
afaik in that time celt NSs were removed already, but i may be wrong. but why starting a whine if u saw me asking for a template for RR6 (!) and mentions swords (yes swords, not blades)? And i did it on hibbie board bcoz there were almost zero critblades on Midgard forum.....

They weren't. Why ask for a SB template on NS boards... That's a new one.

You forgot to add the effects of haste btw.

 

[BidAccount]

Interesting hroft.

What happens if the SB drops weapon spec and increases LA spec? For same points spent can it match/exceed the 50/18 thrust/dw model. How does a 44/x or 39/x model stack up?

 

[Haldar]

Originally posted by belth

You forgot to add the effects of haste btw.

look better im my post above.

the only thing that keeps LA better than DW (for a little bit) is a more reliable selfhaste effect when styling. With unstyled swings DW>LA.

 

[Haldar]

Originally posted by donttouchpoopy
Interesting hroft.

What happens if the SB drops weapon spec and increases LA spec? For same points spent can it match/exceed the 50/18 thrust/dw model. How does a 44/x or 39/x model stack up?

infi who trained 50 th/18 dw spent 1444 pts on it. there are 2 sensible (in terms of style achieved) ax/LA templates which fit in this req -- 44/29 (1423 used) and 39/36 (1444 used).

all internal results are rounded to 1st digit after comma.

from 1 to 2/3 spec (34) lower end of dmg is increased linearry, from 25-125% to 75-125%, thus i assume that this growth is lower dmg end is ~1.5% (1.5*33=49).

from 2/3 spec to full spec (34 to 50) dmg is increased lineary, from 75-125% to 100-150%. thus i assume that this growth of lower and higher dmg ends is ~1.5% per level of spec (1.5%*16=24).

this means that
at 44 axe dmg will be in 90%-140% range, 115 avg.
at 39 axe dmg will be in 82.5%-132.5% range, 107.5 avg.

at 29 LA dmg will be in 67-125% range, 96 avg
at 36 LA dmg will be in 78-128% range, 103 avg

1st case: 211 dmg total, adjusted for LA mech: 152.6796 dmg
2nd case: 210.5 dmg total, adjusted for LA mech: 157.3277 dmg

this math leads to beleif that 38axe/37 LA will be best spec damage wise, with 1442 pts used. Yes, if we do calculations..

ax range - 81-131%, 106 avg
LA range - 79.5-129.5%, 104.5 avg
210.5 dmg total, 158.0434 dmg adjusted for LA mech.

this dmg is still 7.87% lower than 50th/18dw one, and i'm not mentioning WS issue here (as WS is a factor in bypassing enemy parry/block/evade) and availability of supposedly good highlvl styles .

 

[BidAccount]

The weaponskill difference is exacerbated by lack of a str/dex line, and I think thats a reasonable request by the SB community. On a comparable line the difference between 50 and 44/39 is in the region of 40-80 points (my last comparison was with a luri NS - higher dex quick means probably less than these figures).

I wonder how much of that 7.87% is compensated for by the permanent haste effect - I'm not sure howyou'd measure this.

Your figures look interesting, and would seem to indicate a small percentage increase for LA mechanics would not be out of line.

 

[Haldar]

even if we had str/dex weapons, WS of 50 weapspec would be greater than WS of 38, 39 or 44 weapspec.

now i have thought this matter over again and came to 1st approximate conclusion about LA, DW and selfhaste.


1. for unstyled swings, DW is better than LA unless Axe spec = LA spec = Thrust spec = DW spec (Thrust, Axe and DW are just pointers to respective weapon lines of realms - it may be slash, sword and CD)
2. for styled swings, the picture is unclear -- it depends on style used (growth rate), qui of assasin, and weapons used.


think i'll do calculations for RL examples too...but later.

 

[)nick(]

When I still played my infil I was overpowered. Good NS' were tougher but there weren't many of them around.

 

[athenea]

Posted by cernos.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Infiltrators are far from impossible to beat but as it currently stands DF will happen pretty much every fight with a thrust Infi. No purge = /release. Any battle between supposed equals that requires one player to have Purge available is nonsense game balance.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

that not nice yes, but like alb fg against savage mid fg need have available sos bof x2 and moc to had any chance,and that are worse coz affect whole game.

engage JH without RAs up = /release in less than 1 min. (with RAs maybe u can get some kills first ).

 

[Powahhh]

Originally posted by noaim
http://vnboards.ign.com/message.asp?topic=54360051&replies=265

Buh-bye to all the infils soon when they get 'fixed'.

hm compare infil on low RRs ?
imo NSs are much more overpowered than infil on the long run
against other rogues ofc
about the nrf thing i hope infils nerfed after the savage nerf
at least infils do not come on normal grps do they ?
and about the 90% of players play grp rvr and not stealther wars
atm the rvr is so fucked up with the hybrid that has tank ras....savage

 

[BidAccount]

1. You're talking about a poll where they can't even spell infiltrator, and is being voted on by a bunch of retarded sulking yank SB players. Yes thats reliable!

2. Nerf infiltrators - how?

Reduce or remove dragonfang is the usual suggestion - well its a balanced stun in the scale of things, but a small reduction will make little difference. Remove it and most infils will go slash, and that'll hurt SBs even more.

Reduce spec points is the second suggestion. Well this will have minimal effect - you'll see most infils with a few points less in CS/DW, and some in weapon spec (if it was to drop I'd consider going slash so would take to 39 or 44). With SC and RAs the effect is minimal - plus the deal is 2.2 and toys (dds, 2 handers, hits). Unless of course you want to lose those to equalise.

Infils aren't overpowered. Damage levels are comparable with other assassins (hroft has some valid points with his LA mathematics that may justify a very small increment). Its just that a significant proportion of fotm ex SBs are so used to being overpowered tat normal mode is too much of a challenge for them.

 

[Haldar]

if Mythic takes balance road, then imo

1. Dfang should be put as 2nd style in chain
2. AP should be stripped from NSs. It simply do not fit into assasin concept.
3. SBs should get a lot of improvements i mentioned earlier.

Now, if they chose 'nerf' road...the 1st thing that comes to mind is a flat-out reduction of growth rates for Infi/NS only, or puttng them on caster dmg/hp table, or whatever....they can do numerous things u know....

now, which road will be better for a good of the game? Imo 2nd will be better as imo assasins arent supposed to be that numerous.

but this is not for me to decide.

 

[Nazghul-]

Originally posted by donttouchpoopy
2. Nerf infiltrators - how?

Reduce or remove dragonfang is the usual suggestion - well its a balanced stun in the scale of things, but a small reduction will make little difference. Remove it and most infils will go slash, and that'll hurt SBs even more.

Tell me poo why are 95% of all infils thrust if going slash would hurt sb's even more?

 

[Aybabtu]

Originally posted by Nazghul-
Tell me poo why are 95% of all infils thrust if going slash would hurt sb's even more?

Cos thrust has Dragon Fang but crappy dmg and if Dragon fang was removed there would be no reason to spec thrust thus everyone would be slash and since SB's have slash weak armor(?) they would suffer getting hit harder

 

[BidAccount]

Placing assassins (and it would have to be blanket - not just NS/Infils) would make little sense. The complaints are not to do with assassin hits.

Actually most of the complaints are from those who lack knowledge, or just the plain thick. I rolled an assassin to learn how they worked - and do you know what? Since I've played one not one of my other characters has been jumped by a solo assassin (OK one or two have been pack attacked, but thats hard to defend against).

I don't see assassins as overpowered tbh, but perhaps thats because I understand a little about them and have learnt (edit learning still ) their strengths and weakneses. But then I'm constantly surprised to see people solo in the frontier, sitting at mgs, walking down pathways, standing still for prolonged periods without protection(or afk even!). I still bump into new hunters camping the mg hills with camo down 9in fact I like them - do it more please)

Nerfs should be justified, and LA was more powerful than it should have been - thats unarguable. Savages are going to have a hard time justifying their current status. But infils aren't the ubergodly class people think they are - you're seeing a lot of people /level and try them out right now, but I believe fewer than 1% of those will stay long term in the rvr endgame.

(Edit - there is one area that should go. Buffbots)

 

[noaim]

Originally posted by donttouchpoopy

Nerfs should be justified, and LA was more powerful than it should have been - thats unarguable. Savages are going to have a hard time justifying their current status. But infils aren't the ubergodly class people think they are - you're seeing a lot of people /level and try them out right now, but I believe fewer than 1% of those will stay long term in the rvr endgame.

Go look at VN boards. It's just the other way around there. The crowd yells 'nerf the infs' while the savager-haters are a minority. I can pretty much guarantee you that Infiltrators will see a nerf long before a savage will even suspect a nerf. I aint gonna repeat my point of view all over again, if you want to know how i feel, scroll upp in this thread, but once again, mythic nerf/balance according to the whiners at the US boards, the whiners at BW got slim to none priority.