Football FAO Scouse

[Raven]

 

[Scouse]

Gah. Just looked it up. Kinda knew it wasn't going to be a congratulatory pint. I'd forgotten all about it tbfh.

Been saying it for ages. We've lost a good manager

 

[Ch3tan]

Bull shit scouse, rafa destroyed the team in the last year, he was a vindictive bastard who was as much to blame as the owners, everyone else can see this.

Hodgson really can't do much with what you've got left, the sooner liverpool fans realise you need 2 years plus new owners to rebuild the better.

 

[DaGaffer]

Wasn't wildly impressed with United's defending either. We're shipping too many goals. The rock solid defence of 2 years ago is a happy memory unfortunately.

 

[Scouse]

Bull shit scouse, rafa destroyed the team in the last year, he was a vindictive bastard who was as much to blame as the owners, everyone else can see this.

Everyone else who only understands anything about Liverpool because of what they read in the papers you mean?

I disagree, as would many reds fans who follow the team week in/out.

The press was always on Rafa's back (make a change to the team? fergie could (and did), but not rafa. don't score enough goals? in 08/9 we scored 9 more goals than the next nearest - chelski, utd, arsenal and had a better goal difference than anyone).

He was attempting to set himself up as a new shankly - real control over the club including transfer policy etc. It was fractious and terribly misrepresented in the press. That said, he was always fighting a losing battle against the owners and this has been reflected in the fact that we've made money in the last few transfer windows...

Never really had a problem with his tactics. Over the years, for me, he got it right.

With the loss of mascherano but the addition of Joe Cole, and a couple of others (signed for free or peanuts) - fitting into into the "problem" area for liverpool (according to the press, anyway) you'd think we could field at least a strong a team and definately a much more attacking one.

The result?

Actually, screw the results. It's the performances which have been so disappointing. We're awful at the moment. I've not seen a glimpse of anything good from us this season - and, right now, it seems like it's the tactics Hodgeson's employing that are at fault.

 

[cHodAX]

Wasn't wildly impressed with United's defending either. We're shipping too many goals. The rock solid defence of 2 years ago is a happy memory unfortunately.

Right back is a massive issue now, we don't have a single player in that postition who is even close to being a world class 'defender'. The left side will be fine when Evra gets his head straight, Ferdinand worries me much more as his game seems to have slipped a couple of levels in the space of 12 months and I am getting the feeling he won't reach his best again until he gets a new contract. Personally I would ship him out at the end of the season and either rotate Smalling/Evans in or spend £20 million and buy someone really good.

 

[Scouse]

Personally I would ship him out at the end of the season and either rotate Smalling/Evans in or spend £20 million and buy someone really good.

Life's as a Utd fan eh? Ship out your 30 million defender and match Liverpool's record spend on an outfield player for a replacement defender.

Fergie's an ace manager. Never again will I have a pop at him simply because United's success came at precisely the same time that the football league 1st division morphed into the moneybags Premier League. It's just coincidence I tells ya!

 

[cHodAX]

Life's as a Utd fan eh? Ship out your 30 million defender and match Liverpool's record spend on an outfield player for a replacement defender.

Fergie's an ace manager. Never again will I have a pop at him simply because United's success came at precisely the same time that the football league 1st division morphed into the moneybags Premier League. It's just coincidence I tells ya!

Explain Giggs, Sharpe, Beckham, Scholes, Butt, Neville, Neville, Brown. They were the stalwarts of our league winning sides during the last two decades and cost us nothing!

 

[Scouse]

That's a list of 8 players, one of which is Phil Neville, the other of which is Wes Brown!

So, six players in 20 years won you the league eh? I stand corrected. Bet you never spent anything

 

[cHodAX]

That's a list of 8 players, one of which is Phil Neville, the other of which is Wes Brown!

So, six players in 20 years won you the league eh? I stand corrected. Bet you never spent anything

Obviously the truth is somewhere in between dumbass!

Just remember, your club spent more bringing players in than United in the last 5 years and how many trophies did it win you? It isn't always what you spend but how you spend. Rafa consistently bought shit with an occasional good signing thrown in.

 

[Scouse]

Not getting into that argument again!

And Utd still suck cock

 

[Raven]

Aquilani

 

[Scouse]

Aquilani

Alonso, Mascherano, Reina, Torres.

Juan Sebastian Veron?

 

[cHodAX]

Robbie Keane. How much did you lose on him?

Now watch this for a list...


• Josemi – £2m
• Antonio Nunez - Part-ex
• Luis Garcia - £6m
• Momo Sissoko - £5.3m
• Sebastian Leto - £1.85m
• Gabriel Palletta - £2m
• Bolo Zenden – free but sizeable wages
• Fernando Morientes - £8m and big wages
• Robbie Fowler – free but big wages
• Craig Bellamy - £6.5m
• Jermaine Pennant - £6.7m
• Mark Gonzalez - £1.5m
• Ryan Babel - £11.5m
• Scott Carson - £750,000
• Lucas Leiva - £6m
• Andriy Voronin – free but crap
• Diego Cavalieri - £3m
• Robbie Keane - £20.3m
• Andrea Dossena - £7m
• Philipp Degen – free and crap
• Albert Riera – £8m
• Alberto Aquilani - £20m and out on loan to get his wages off the books
• Sotirios Kyrgiakos - £1.5m

There are loads of other names you won't recognise either, guys that he brought in that drew wages and just rotted away in the reserves.

All in all, a massive amount of failures in a 5 year period. Rotten signing policy, rotten players.

 

[Wazzerphuk]

It's the sheer amount of very, very average players he signed on high wages that were never going to get a play. A similar thing in his staff setup, too many people doing too little on too high wages.

Roy's had to make big changes because Rafa had the management abilities of a spoon. He was an ok coach, but an awful manager. If you can't grasp the difference, it's no wonder you support Liverpool.

 

[Scouse]

Keane was signed by Rick Parry - and that cost him his job.

Rafa didn't get to buy his first choice players - the transfer policy at t'pool was to buy these "average" players and sell them on for a profit. The profits were then supposed to be ploughed back into the club for first-choice player purchaces. But they weren't.

Roy hasn't made big changes. He's not had the cash to do so. We made money in the transfer window (again). His tactical acumen seems lacking at the moment - and his selections show a lack of ambition IMO.

Basically, we're doing shit with a very slightly improved team.


Edit: Oh, and looking down that list, there's a load of not great players bought at a bargain price.

 

[gohan]

Keane was signed by Rick Parry - and that cost him his job.

Rafa didn't get to buy his first choice players - the transfer policy at t'pool was to buy these "average" players and sell them on for a profit. The profits were then supposed to be ploughed back into the club for first-choice player purchaces. But they weren't.

Roy hasn't made big changes. He's not had the cash to do so. We made money in the transfer window (again). His tactical acumen seems lacking at the moment - and his selections show a lack of ambition IMO.

Basically, we're doing shit with a very slightly improved team.


Edit: Oh, and looking down that list, there's a load of not great players bought at a bargain price.

and sold for less or givern away for free after playing a handfull of games on 50k a week



ye fucking ace transfer policy

 

[cHodAX]

Yep, the wages are the key, 10's of millions of pounds wasted on average and sometimes below average players. If you look at Liverpool's financial results for the last 5 years you will see exactly what I mean, profits being held back by massive staff costs and 60 odd players drawing wages of whom only about 15 were viable first teamers. Money pissed away, no arguements.

 

[Scouse]

Tell me honestly cHodAX. Have you actually read Liverpool's accounts? You're talking like you have. I imagine that'd make for some pretty boring reading for someone who doesn't support the club.

It's a damn sight more than I've done. And it being my club too eh?

 

[cHodAX]

Tell me honestly cHodAX. Have you actually read Liverpool's accounts? You're talking like you have. I imagine that'd make for some pretty boring reading for someone who doesn't support the club.

It's a damn sight more than I've done. And it being my club too eh?

I always keep an eye out for football financials bud, honestly. I haven't analysed them to the finer details, didn't really have to because the numbers were healthy enough for a few years when they were doing well in the CL. As I said, the years Liverpool were in profit they were still missing out on bigger profits (hence more investment) because Rafa had allowed the squad to become bloated with alot of very mediocre players. For every good player he bought there were 4-5 who were shockers.

 

[Scouse]

Most of the players were on sensible wages. Young players. Sold at profit.

But yep -I'm not denying there were a lot of shockers. Lots. However, it's more about Rafa not being able to buy first-choice players when he wanted to and having to be active in the market to generate that profit.

Alonso was cheap as chips. Sold at more than 20m profit. Hell, even Torres wasn't prolific before he came here. Everyone was "looking" at him, but nobody had even had a proper sniff. And at 20 million (our record signing) he now looks like a bargain - but that was no means certain at the time.

Mascherano was warming the bench at West Ham. Curbishley wasn't playing him. Not even a look in. Rafa single-handedly rescued his career and made him the best defensive midfielder in the world. He made captain of Argentina and now at Barca.

Under him we made CL Final (twice), CL Semi's (twice). FA Cup. League Cup. Europa League Semi. Came 2nd to Utd with only 2 losses all season, a record points haul in the PL (for us) and scoring more goals than any other team.

Last season we had our two biggest players out for most of the season and a big signing (who was supposed to be recovered from injury by the beginning of October) injured for most of the season too. This is on the back of a profit during the transfer window when any sensible owners in the world would have made that final investment, bought the first-choice striker and winger he was after and let him have a go.

Instead we had to make do with Ngog. 1.5 million. He'll go at a big profit. We'd have had Chamakh (or however you spell it) if Rafa had stayed too. On a free, of course.

Yep. He was shit Rafa.

 

[gohan]

Most of the players were on sensible wages. Young players. Sold at profit.

But yep -I'm not denying there were a lot of shockers. Lots. However, it's more about Rafa not being able to buy first-choice players when he wanted to and having to be active in the market to generate that profit.

Alonso was cheap as chips. Sold at more than 20m profit. Hell, even Torres wasn't prolific before he came here. Everyone was "looking" at him, but nobody had even had a proper sniff. And at 20 million (our record signing) he now looks like a bargain - but that was no means certain at the time.

Mascherano was warming the bench at West Ham. Curbishley wasn't playing him. Not even a look in. Rafa single-handedly rescued his career and made him the best defensive midfielder in the world. He made captain of Argentina and now at Barca.

Under him we made CL Final (twice), CL Semi's (twice). FA Cup. League Cup. Europa League Semi. Came 2nd to Utd with only 2 losses all season, a record points haul in the PL (for us) and scoring more goals than any other team.

Last season we had our two biggest players out for most of the season and a big signing (who was supposed to be recovered from injury by the beginning of October) injured for most of the season too. This is on the back of a profit during the transfer window when any sensible owners in the world would have made that final investment, bought the first-choice striker and winger he was after and let him have a go.

Instead we had to make do with Ngog. 1.5 million. He'll go at a big profit. We'd have had Chamakh (or however you spell it) if Rafa had stayed too. On a free, of course.

Yep. He was shit Rafa.

alonso was £16million and getting about 70k a week for 5 years thats another 17.5million we got 30 million for him so we "rented" his services for 3.5 million which is good but not a profit

masherano we sold at a loss before you even take wages into account

and ngog would have been sold this summer if he wasn't demanding such hig wages (obviously getting paid alot at pool) so after 4 years on say 30k a week we need 7.5million to break even......



also for every sisoko we make 3million profit on thiers a robbie keane or peter crouch we lose 5 million on



i lost fiath in rafa's managial ability when he played 6 defenders 2 defensive midfields 1 attacking midfield and a lone striker v stoke i think it was

 

[Scouse]

I can't say much about that apart from I totally disagree with your assessment, your figures and your approach.

 

[ramathorn]

alonso was £16million and getting about 70k a week for 5 years thats another 17.5million we got 30 million for him so we "rented" his services for 3.5 million which is good but not a profit

masherano we sold at a loss before you even take wages into account

and ngog would have been sold this summer if he wasn't demanding such hig wages (obviously getting paid alot at pool) so after 4 years on say 30k a week we need 7.5million to break even......



also for every sisoko we make 3million profit on thiers a robbie keane or peter crouch we lose 5 million on



i lost fiath in rafa's managial ability when he played 6 defenders 2 defensive midfields 1 attacking midfield and a lone striker v stoke i think it was

agree with almost everything you say apart from factoring peoples wages into transfer fee's. you're paying them a wage for the service they provide you, that has to be an amount that you feel that service is worth from the outset. You cant when you go to sell that player assume that you are going to recoup all their wages aswell as that has already been paid for by service (or lack thereof for most of liverpools players).

But yes, rafa was a shit manager for liverpool, i do think he has managerial ability and a place in football though, what he did at valencia for example was brilliant. that he won the champions league the first season he had houllier's team then dismantled the team that gave him that success and replaced them with lesser players (for the most part) says a lot i think.

 

[Wazzerphuk]

How a club should be run: Football365 | Premier League | Arsenal News | ARSENAL POST IMPRESSIVE FIGURES

It's so fucking easy, it's hilarious how clubs like Liverpool can't understand the basics of how a business needs to work. Yes, Liverpool is a business, like all professional football clubs.

 

[Scouse]

It's so fucking easy, it's hilarious how clubs like Liverpool can't understand the basics of how a business needs to work. Yes, Liverpool is a business, like all professional football clubs.

Actually we're making record profits now that Parry's been given the heave ho.

The problem is the debt that the Yanks bought the club with.

 

[Wazzerphuk]

Record profits mean nothing if all they're doing is going straight into a black hole.

 

[Scouse]

Record profits mean nothing if all they're doing is going straight into a black hole.

Yep. It's not as if we love 'em either you know.

I thought people'd give Rafa some kudos for fighting against the board so hard. I daresay if Hodgeson'd been there the horrible details would only be coming out about now.

Say what you like about him, but he stood his ground and fought for his principles - and those principles were firmly behind the club.

If you're looking for a reason so many fans feel stung by his loss, you don't have to look much further than that.

 

[Wazzerphuk]

His principles were signing average players on high wages that he never really intended to play.

Like it or not, he's part of the problem you're in now. He didn't cause it, but he should be held up to his responsibilities and not blindly defended. Yes, he fought the board, but he didn't do himself or you many favours at all.

Liverpool fans generally fall in two groups: those like you that defend him, and those that are glad to be rid of him. It's pretty much 50-50 in my experience, which goes to show the matter isn't as black and white as some fans would like to make out.

 

[Raven]

Record profits mean nothing if all they're doing is going straight into a black hole.

That's not the clubs fault, its the new owners fault. A football club is much more than just the current owners.