Fact Hey @scouse what do u think about weight after watching this

[Moriath]

@Scouse

Obesity: How Prejudiced Is the NHS?

Here is a lot more to weight and laziness. And overeating than you claimed. Also there is a cost effective way to battle it that isnt being use.

 

[Scouse]

Got bored at fifteen minutes because, typical of the beeb, the show was drip feeding facts and figures at an agonisingly slow rate.

Anyway the long and short of it is that NICE says the NHS should offer weight loss surgery, at the cost of £6000/patient to loads more people as it will save money in the long run.

I fully agree. And if patients ask for it then the NHS has to assess in line with NICE recommendations.

But I do wish those fat fucks would do something about their own weight rather than burning up six thousand pounds that could be spent elsewhere. Yes, it's difficult but as a country we're newly fat - and that's not because we've all magically inherited a fat gene in the past 30 years that makes us incapable of policing our own weight or wolfing down shite in quantities that clearly are doing us harm.

I, personally, would triple the cost of unhealthy foods by law and plough that cash back into the NHS - the people who eat/drink it most would thetefore be paying for their own treatment whilst people who make the obviously more difficult choice to take serious responsibility for their diet and weight would benefit too.

 

[Moriath]

If you bothered to watch the rest it showed the fact that doing something about it is both genetic and so e thing that most people who are obese want to heppen.

But because of people in the care giving comunity being bias towards them this is not happening.

Sorry you couldnt watch something that is exaserbating your prejedice.

1 in 1200 people who are over the obese rankand are male will get to a normal weight.

1 in 700 ish women

This isnt because they dont want to it is because their physiology and pyschology prevent them from doing it.

Just because you maybe the 1 doesnt mean that everyone is the same as you.

Not saying they need help with the weight if they dont want it. But here are a lot of reasons than just being lazy and eating too much. Its more complex

 

[Scouse]

1 in 1200 eh?

I'm awesome me

 

[Scouse]

This isnt because they dont want to it is because their physiology and pyschology prevent them from doing it.

Watched nearly all of it - philipa, severely obese, packet of biscuits in the background.

I get it. I'm totally in favour of weight loss surgery - never haven't been. It's cost effective. Never had a problem with it - and that is what the program is about - making an argument for increased access to that surgery. I don't see how anyone can really have a problem with that.


Watching the program I see stupid people whining and, I can't help but be honest, I don't like stupid people. Never have. And the link between low IQ and being overweight is well-established.

Like a lot of things - what I'd really like to see to fix this is better education. But as food education generally gets delivered in the home that seems untenable. So we're back to punitive unhealthy food taxes - make "bad food" so expensive that thick people don't choose to keep stuffing their maws with it.

We live in an obesogenic environment and some humans aren't intellectually equipped to deal with it. Fair enough - we didn't evolve to deal with the world we currently live in (and, rightly, we're not going to go all Darwin on fat people). So we change the environment rather than punish them via the NHS.

That way nobody loses out on choice, people can still eat what they want to eat and drink what they want to drink. But a 1.75 litre bottle of coke, which contains 189 grams of sugar - 207% of the daily intake, would go from £1.50 to £4.50 or (as idiots amazingly buy) 24 packs of 330ml cans, which contain 35grams of sugar each - near 8 litres of coke, for fucking six quid - would be £18 quid.

Sensible people, who would have a can once in a blue moon, wouldn't notice the hit in their pocket. Stupid people, who drink (at least) a can a day, would either slow their consumption or be paying towards the cost of their own medical treatment.


If we want fair capitalism - that's fair and non-judgemental.

 

[BloodOmen]

I wanted to avoid this thread, I really did. Mainly because of bellends like Raven taking the piss because they simply don't understand what mental illness can lead to. I've never really been totally open about my mental illness but because this thread touched a nerve I'm going to be brutally open about it.

This is late 80's-early 90's, I honestly can't remember exactly when this was (one on the left is my brother, I'm the one on the right)



This is me, top, third from the left



Basically the year I left school, take note of the red mark on my face, it plays a fairly significant role in my life from here on out.



This is after school, around when I started college doing performing arts with my 2 sisters, my niece and my grandfather (who was like a dad to me, WW2 veteran and very strict role model)



This is just after I met my wife. This is before the anxiety problems started to set in.

After this it was pretty much a downward spiral, I started to feel very self conscience about my birthmark, I went from being full time employed to basically being a leech, sucking state benefits to get from day to day.

This was taken shortly after my first child was born in 2011



Already the weight is clearly piling on. I weighed about 24-25 stone in that picture.

Today, I weigh about 35 stone. I dunno, i guess what I'm saying is, being a fat cunt isn't always by choice.

Mine was Anxiety -> which goes hand in hand with depression -> which goes hand in hand with low self-esteem, it's a vicious downward spiral and a very hard one to get out of.

 

[Raven]

Afraid I am going to need a source there chap. I have never knowingly taken the piss out of someone for a true mental illness, Just @Scouse now and again because unfunny Sheldon is tiresome. Having a wife that has suffered serious depression and anxiety in the past (nearly to the point of being unable to leave the house) and having to constantly try and reassure and build her up her over years, she still worries about (what most people would consider) dumb stuff and some days she still refuses to go out for no tangible reason.

Anyway, brave of you to post that, much respect innit.

 

[old.Osy]

*Enters thread munching bag of crisps* - Hey lads what's going on her....

*Hides bag, slowly backs away*

 

[Scouse]

this thread touched a nerve

I'm sorry that it touched a nerve m8. It wasn't intended to. Really good post.

Just to be clear - I've stated in the past and it's worth stating again - there are lots of complex reasons for a lot of things. Mental illness of any kind is a really difficult thing to live with and anyone who's ill, in any way, deserves the fullest support it's possible to give.

In explanation, so there's no ambiguity - I've been having this long running argument with @Moriath for far too long now. On the topic of weight gain I've clearly stated time and again that there are a lot of reasons that people gain weight that are out of their control. The post above is not, repeat absolutely NOT aimed at people with any illness - mental or physiological. So I'm sorry that it touched a nerve, as it was definitely not aimed at you or anyone like you.


Apparently, nearly 70% of British men are overweight or obese. Nearly 7 out of 10. Which is astonishing. A proportion of those people will have situations analagous to your own - but 7 out of 10 British men don't have an illness. These non-ill people are what my arguments with Moriath are over (although he doesn't seem to be able to accept that).

My solution is clear - make unhealthy food prohibitively expensive and plough that money back into the NHS. This is non-stigmatising, non-judgemental and fair - and would make it easier for people's default choice to be a healthy one rather than an unhealthy one. It also doesn't stop people eating or drinking anything should they want to.

I made the point about an obesogenic environment. i.e. the very world we live in is bad for our health. @Moriath's point about 1 in 1200 (severely obese) men being able to bring the weight off and keep it off by force of will alone drives that home quite starkly. (It's about 1 in 200 overweight men according to the documentary). It's clearly NOT just a force of will thing for most people. We're clearly badly adapted from an evolutionary standpoint to live in the world we currently live in and maintain a healthy weight.

The solution is clear - change the world we live in. We're good at doing that. And we've got a tool - tax - that offers a simple quick fix whilst we deal with (or more likely, ignore) the wider problems.

 

[Raven]

My dad is nearly 60 and 18 stone, he runs the London marathon every year. Previous to that he jumped out of planes with a rifle and a whole bunch of other stuff for a living. Edit, he also cycles 30-40 miles a day so has a bike idiot badge too!

Being a bit over weight means precisely fuck all to fitness and overall health and this superficial drive for perfection is damaging. People carrying a few extra pounds are labelled obese by people too lazy to differentiate. It's no wonder body weight related mental illness is on the increase amongst the young.

Extra taxation is a stupid idea too, why should I, as someone who enjoys most things in moderation have to pay more because other people have no self control?

 

[Scouse]

Being a bit over weight means precisely fuck all to fitness and overall health and this superficial drive for perfection is damaging. People carrying a few extra pounds are labelled obese from people too lazy to differentiate

Just because you don't like BMI doesn't mean it's clinically useless. Being overweight ain't good for you.

A little? Not gonna make much difference if you keep yourself in good nick - like by running. But most overweight people are also sedentary.

taxation is a stupid idea too, why should I, as someone who enjoys most things in moderation have to pay more because other people have no self control?

The evidence clearly shows it's not about self control. It's about humans living in an obeseogenic environment they never evolved to live in.

As you say you're a moderate person taxation would make little difference to you. But it could be transformative to millions - and the knock on benefit would be that the NHS would have much more cash to spend on stuff that could benefit everyone - including you.

But if you want to ignore the evidence and pretend it's all about self control just to save yourself a few quid a month knock yourself out. Fuck all those fatties eh?


*Obviously for me it's self control. I'm one of them one-in-two-hundred plus guys. But it's an epic constant thing to maintain a healthy weight whilst all around you are scoffing cheap shite down whilst calling you skinny, or, rather, saying you look like you've walked out of aushwitz - just because you're a healthy weight. (6'2", 13 stone).

Blighty is full of fat people looking around at each other thinking that's 'normal' (rather than unhealthy) pyshing chocolate and cake at you at every turn because they're nice people who like to share. But what they're actually sharing are their shitty eating habits.

Making unhealthy stuff expensive would cut that shit right out and make being a healthy weight easy for everyone.

Obeseogenic environment...

 

[Tom]

being a fat cunt isn't always by choice.

I hope you can sort yourself out one day, I really do. I don't think your situation is typical though - most overweight people in this country are simply poorly-educated and therefore ignorant of the dangers of a lack of exercise and bad diet.

A few years back I was around 18 stone (@TdC saw me). This despite me always having exercised regularly, out on the bike all the time. I was simply eating too much, probably in the order of a couple of hundred calories too many each day. All it took for me to sort it was the Myfitnesspal app. I was already on board with the exercise, that part was easy. Once I knew exactly how much I could eat to lose/maintain weight, I had no issues and lost the lot. I'm 13 stone now, about 10lb overweight currently, but I've signed up for another marathon this year so will lose that no problem. Most people who look at me would laugh if I said I was overweight.

Ultimately there's no one solution to obesity on a population level. You have to attack the problem from a few angles - early education, bad food taxes, healthy transport infrastructure, NHS operations, etc.

 

[Tom]

JMaking unhealthy stuff expensive would cut that shit right out and make being a healthy weight easy for everyone.

As long as I can have an exemption. I did the Cheshire Cat sportive a few weeks back, I was able to trough 4,500 calories of utter shite when I got back. Just let me eat my shite in peace!

 

[Bodhi]

I'd like an exemption too please. I only really eat "unhealthy" foods, as frankly most of the healthy equivalents taste like shit. I mean I had McDonald's for breakfast and lunch yesterday (Om nom), then Steak and Chips for tea. If I have to drop any of that for stuff like Kale or Quinoa, I will kick the fuck off.

I've also suffered from Social Anxiety for most of my life, but never saw eating as particularly comforting. That's what smoking is for. Probably why I'm the same weight I was when I was 21 (so only last year!).

 

[Scouse]

It'd be a now and again thing so you could trough at small expense.

But, of course, you should have eaten a metric fuckton of steak, like a real man

 

[Bodhi]

I'm still yet to be convinced a Sugar/Fat Tax will actually work if I'm honest - Denmark and Mexico have both tried it with little success, and it seems awfully regressive to me. It tends to be the lower incomes that consume the most "crap", so I'm not sure how hitting them in the pocket hardest makes for a particularly helpful or compassionate way of doing things.

But then most people who suggest these things claim to care about the "little people", whilst simultaneously looking down their noses at their eating/working/voting habits. So I'm not shocked.

 

[Scouse]

Lower incomes / lower IQs go hand in hand. It's primarily these people that need targetting. Tough titties - you can't not do stuff just because "mwahhhh this affects poor people" - especially when it's predominantly the poor that suffer from obesity.

You don't make an omelette without breaking some eggs. And the status quo is unsustainable, period. - And taxation isn't banning.

Our food environment is the problem. That needs to be fixed. We've only one method of doing it.

Nice to see that the people who eat the most shite hate the idea. Good. It shows that a massive hike would do the trick IMO. Instead of these shitty 10% sugar tax band aids that do nothing but placate health-conscious outraged voters.

It's either do something or watch the NHS collapse appatently. I vote do something.

 

[Bodhi]

It's probably the people who eat the most shite yet keep a healthy weight that dislike the idea the most. Can't think why.

 

[Raven]

Its punishing the masses for the faults of the few. Horse shit, naturally.

 

[fettoken]

Hey @BloodOmen didn't know you have a kid. Also that took some guts to lay out for everyone to read about. That's the thing with depression, it needs to be put on public display and vented. How are you managing at the moment?

Also, i think most people are glad to speak constructively about it, but for some who have no initial understanding with the subject might think it's something you easily can push aside.

Not comparable, but I have some fucking annoying case of separation anxiety, so with each breakup it really takes some time to get back up on the feet, and have to struggle to maintain any sort of regular schedule. As of now, i stay up way too late, paused my work, just being really passive, though it's helping out going to see a (what do you call them in English, psychologist? Mentalist?) once a week, just relying on some sort of scheduled pattern really helps.

 

[BloodOmen]

I hope you can sort yourself out one day, I really do. I don't think your situation is typical though - most overweight people in this country are simply poorly-educated and therefore ignorant of the dangers of a lack of exercise and bad diet.

A few years back I was around 18 stone (@TdC saw me). This despite me always having exercised regularly, out on the bike all the time. I was simply eating too much, probably in the order of a couple of hundred calories too many each day. All it took for me to sort it was the Myfitnesspal app. I was already on board with the exercise, that part was easy. Once I knew exactly how much I could eat to lose/maintain weight, I had no issues and lost the lot. I'm 13 stone now, about 10lb overweight currently, but I've signed up for another marathon this year so will lose that no problem. Most people who look at me would laugh if I said I was overweight.

Ultimately there's no one solution to obesity on a population level. You have to attack the problem from a few angles - early education, bad food taxes, healthy transport infrastructure, NHS operations, etc.

You're not the only one.

 

[BloodOmen]

Hey @BloodOmen didn't know you have a kid. Also that took some guts to lay out for everyone to read about. That's the thing with depression, it needs to be put on public display and vented. How are you managing at the moment?

Also, i think most people are glad to speak constructively about it, but for some who have no initial understand about the subject might think it's something you easily can push aside.

Not comparable, but I have some fucking annoying case of separation anxiety, so with each breakup it really takes some time to get back up on the feet, and have to struggle to maintain any sort of regular schedule. As of now, i stay up way too late, paused my work, just being really passive, though it's helping out going to see a (what do you call them in English, psychologist? Mentalist?) once a week, just relying on some sort of scheduled pattern really helps.

I have 2 kids

 

[Scouse]

Its punishing the masses for the faults of the few

If 70% of British men are overweight/obese then it's helping the masses to overcome the faults of an unnatural environment we never evolved to live in.

If punishment means generally eating better food, being healthier both physically and mentally (they are linked) and still being able to occasionally eat whatever not-actually-food shite you want to pump into your body then sign us up.

Especially if it means we'll still get free access to healthcare in the future.


I know you really want to blame fat people for being at fault but 70% of the population are not "the few" and it points to it clearly being a structural problem.

But whiners gonna whine.

 

[Scouse]

It's probably the people who eat the most shite yet keep a healthy weight that dislike the idea the most. Can't think why.

Tiny number of people that would still benefit from food having some actual nutritional value.

Cry me a river. They'd rapidly get over it and maybe even realise the error of their ways. I'd rather save the NHS for everyone than pander to the few.

 

[Bodhi]

Well as they say, Nanny knows best.

(Nanny can fuck off as far as I'm concerned, if I get fat I'll stop eating burgers. If I don't I won't, and anyone who claims to know better can save it for someone who gives a fuck, frankly).

 

[Lakih]

Sugar/fat tax won't help shit. Poor people will be poorer and less poor people will be annoyed. What's missing IMO is proper education. Tax cut on healthy food is probably not a bad idea either.
Make the healthy option available to more people.
Give people a proper food education from an early age.
Problem hopefully solved in a few generations, until then, enjoy your £6000 operation - I hope it helps.

 

[Raven]

Healthy food (most food actually) is already exempt from tax.

Unhealthy stuff, crisps and sweets attract VAT, as do cooked food such as Greggs and shit.

 

[ECA]

While I'm pro-keto for appetite control personally, I think most people don't have a good understanding of how to control weight despite the fairly simple nature of it.

You can eat utter shit for food and still lose weight.
Ultimately eating to a set calorie amount will control your weight.

If you're an adult male eat under 2000 calories a day - you will lose weight. ( if you're near a good weight already it'll be slower and you might want to drop it to 1500 ).
Use a tracking app to barcode scan your food if you want.

Hit that 2000 every day, and go for a 30 minute walk everyday.

You WILL lose weight.

All this "balanced diet, organic foods r expensive" drivel you hear is just that.

From a personal perspective eating fattier and more protein content controls my appetite - eating carbs sends me into turbo overdrive eating mode.
Might not be true for everyone but it is for me.

 

[Moriath]

A lot of the problem is the way the food industry has developed in the capitalist market.

Always looking for ways to increase their sales. So start making food taste nicer to our neanderthal brains. Sugar must eat cause tomorrow we might not get food type of survival brain thats cued on high fat and sugar as a means for staying alive.

So they work out that if they make stuff in a certain way people will want to eat more of it and their profits will go up.

Now we get to the state where being overweight is the norm. And suddenly they are all reduced this and that. To make money out of people who want to lose weight.

As been said if its the majority that are in the state then its got to be something in the way we are marketed, sold to which is pandering to our basic instincts.

 

[Bodhi]

It's fairly basic Change Management Theory if I'm honest with you - originally intended for changing an organisation or business, but the principles work pretty much everywhere.

If you force change on people (Top-down, Imposed Change, call it what you will) without taking their concerns and opinions into account, then all you will do is piss people off, and the intended change will fail - in fact the "undesireable" behaviour just becomes more entrenched. Consult and educate them first (Emergent Change), and the changes tend to stick.

Only problem is, for those at the top (the Health Nazis in this case), the top-down approach is much much easier, and saves all that pesky listening to people business.

So @Scouse, I give your plan about the same chance of succeeding as I give Lucifer winning a snowball fight.