News Greece - Time to cut them off?

Discussion in 'The Front Room' started by Raven, Feb 15, 2012.

  1. Raven

    Raven Brrrrr!

    Is it about time we just cut them adrift? They seem intent on not paying any taxes or servicing their national debt.

    Is it better to get rid now in a controlled way or wait for them to collapse in a few months time?
     
  2. Nate

    Nate FH is my second home

    What exactly is it, we(the UK) have to do with Greece in the first place?

    Aren't we not part of the Euro, so we don't really have a say in who's in/out?

    I see that we are owed quite a sum of money, nothing compared to what Germany has put in. But if we just cut our losses the private banks won't be that happy about it, would they?
     
  3. Tom

    Tom FH is my second home

    Well Greece owes everyone a lot of money. So if they default, those people don't get their money. We're not owed that much, but the people we do business with are.

    Basically, if Greece leaves, you can look forward to slower growth for the UK. Although my snide side would quite like to see the Eurocrats implode.
     
  4. Wij

    Wij I am a FH squatter FH Subscriber

    The single currency is a huge boost for Germany and a millstone round southern europe's neck
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Like Like x 1
  5. DaGaffer

    DaGaffer Down With That Sorta Thing

    Problem is, the rest of the EU can't actually kick Greece out without a change to the Lisbon treaty (Greece can choose to leave, but the EU can't eject them), and also if Greece did choose to leave the Euro, they have to leave the EU as well under the terms of Lisbon. If they went back to the Drachma, there would be a massive devaluation and more importantly for the Greeks, they would still owe massive amounts of external debt. They can (and would, probably) default of course, but the problem isn't just the default on sovereign debt but right down to individual level; owe payments on that Volkswagen? Its going to cost you twice as much in devalued drachmas as it did in Euros.

    This is the biggest problem; the Greek people seem to be convinced all the debt is "Somebody Else's Problem", and that individually they're not to blame, but its not true, and they just seem to be in denial.

    Having said all that, other countries have come out of the other side of similar situations (Argentina would be a recent example) in much better shape, and surprisingly quickly. The only problem Argentina has found since devaluation is that foreigners have come in a pretty much bought up everything, and the other thing that happens when you don't trust your money is that the crime rate skyrockets (as it did in Argentina).
     
  6. Vasconcelos

    Vasconcelos Part of the furniture

    Doesnt matter that much anyways, half Greece is already under ze germans hands
     
  7. ECA

    ECA I am a FH squatter

    The proposed bailout they are trying to get right now is to take their debt from 160% of GDP to 120% of GDP, ie it only really postpones the inevitable - until after the french elections so sarkozy can get re-elected :p

    The problem is how awful the euro is at dealing with this, for us we can print money to pay back debt and issue new debt and devalue our currency to boost trade - Greece has to sit there and take it.

    If Greece ( or when ) goes bankrupt then German/French banks have exposure, and you'll see some fallout there as well as the target being moved to italy most likely as the next one to go.
    Italy is already borderline close to where Greece is, and guess who the 3rd biggest backer of the euro bailout fund is meant to be? ITALY! lol.

    Hence they'll probably continue bailout out Greece, and making the lives of millions of people worse for the next 10-20 years, because the other option is just a massive fucking lottery of who gets fucked or not on a national scale.
     
  8. Wij

    Wij I am a FH squatter FH Subscriber

    Portugal will fall next. Italy at least has a reasonable economy and takes billions in tax.
     
  9. CorNokZ

    CorNokZ Currently a stay at home dad

    Italy has reasonable economy? Perhabs you should check the new numbers that just came out today Wij.. Italy are now in recession and their GNP just dwindled 0.7% in the last quarter of 2011, which was expected, but not by that much
     
  10. ECA

    ECA I am a FH squatter

    Portugal is more likely than Italy probably but portugal is easier to bailout than italy.
     
  11. Wij

    Wij I am a FH squatter FH Subscriber

    I must admit I'm not up to the minute on the Italian economy but they've always been in better shape than Portugal. Much harder to bail out I agree.
     
  12. DaGaffer

    DaGaffer Down With That Sorta Thing

    IIRC Italy's problems are almost entirely due to government borrowings; the average Italian has a lot of savings and low levels of personal debt by EU standards. Problem with that of course is that they would be particularly at risk from a run on the banks as savers rushed to get their cash out of the country. The average Portugese or Greek doesn't actually have anything in the bank.
     
  13. Embattle

    Embattle FH is my second home

    Simply because we are not immune to what happens just because we don't use the Euro, that is before the money they owe the UK which has been greatly reduced.

    The fact is I personally believe that whatever the Greek government accepts won't make it that far since the populous will just reject the government, that is even before you look at the fact the populous seemingly takes no responsibility for what has happened in Greece.
     
  14. CorNokZ

    CorNokZ Currently a stay at home dad

    Was not to offend you in any way, was just to inform you :) had just read an article about it minutes earlier. Wasn't trying to be a mr. Know-It-All, so sorry if I came across like one :)
     
  15. Gwadien

    Gwadien Uneducated Northern Cretin

    Would love Greece to turn into an Anarchist nation, just to see how they roll.
     
  16. Wij

    Wij I am a FH squatter FH Subscriber

    I wasn't offended. Chill.
     
  17. Vasconcelos

    Vasconcelos Part of the furniture

    When will we stop listening to rating companies such as SP, Moodys, Finch??

    90% of the triple A ratings they gave in 2006 are now "junk bonds", and yet our goverments still live by their so called "expert advise".

    Talk about getting the fox to mind the geese...
     
  18. Ormorof

    Ormorof FH is my second home

    not to mention S&P rated Lehmann brothers A+++ (or whatever their highest is) the day before it collapsed...
     
  19. Zarjazz

    Zarjazz Unemployed Bum Travelling The World.

    The rating agencies can only base their assessments on the data publicly available. Greece flat out lied about their countries finances to get into the Euro in the first place and has a history for just ignoring economic treaties after they've been signed. Frankly even in the best case scenario Greece could be fucked for decades to come. If they default and go bankrupt it'll be even worse.
     
  20. Embattle

    Embattle FH is my second home

    Actually the ratings agencies have beens some what lax in the past, you'll seem them mentioned in the documentary Inside Job however they are more aggressive now but it hardly matters in Greece's case.
     
  21. Yrendan

    Yrendan Can't get enough of FH


    Tell that to me and 9+ million greeks who are not able to dodge taxes and must pay the shit corrupt goverments did.

    Because the 671 euros (with new cuts 490) I get as a electrical engineer are too much.
     
  22. Job

    Job TWAT and FH Object of Ridicule

    I think the best thing the Greeks can do now, is form a line with their arms around each others shoulders and perform some kind of leg kicking dance to guitar like music that gets faster and faster.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  23. Tom

    Tom FH is my second home

    Plenty of work outside Greece for electrical engineers. My mate is one, he can walk into any job he likes, pretty much. Well paid, too.
     
  24. Job

    Job TWAT and FH Object of Ridicule

    Yeah just become the new Poland, come over here and work for 2/3rds and still be in the dosh.
     
  25. Tom

    Tom FH is my second home

    I think you're mistaking an electrician for an electrical engineer, but then again you do seem to be mistaken about many things.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  26. Yrendan

    Yrendan Can't get enough of FH

    No m8 I have studied Electrical and Computer Engineering at National Technical University of Athens
    http://www.ece.ntua.gr/index.php?lang=en
     
  27. Tom

    Tom FH is my second home

    I was replying to the racist troll that is Job.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  28. Yrendan

    Yrendan Can't get enough of FH


    oh well xD Anyways I have to migrate to get a decent job! If everything goes well I will do my phd there http://www.strath.ac.uk/
    As they offer phd in pulsed power generation!
     
  29. mr.Blacky

    mr.Blacky Can't get enough of FH

    You might not want to hear it but it is your shared responsibility, together with all the other people in Greece. Afterall the Greek people voted for these governments.
    While you could say you personally didnt vote for them(you might have been too young) it doesn't matter. democracy doesnt work from the top to the bottom but from the bottom to the top. It might be a right to have a good/free/democratic government but it is also a duty of the citizens to ensure it is that.
     
  30. Job

    Job TWAT and FH Object of Ridicule

    The clue is in your own reply, you 'thought' I was mistaken.
    And anyway, I meant it, devalue and your labour force become highly competitive , you know, like the Chinese.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1

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