Israel/Palestine (Conflict to more Conflicts)

Wij

Wij

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Scouse said:
www.theguardian.com

By bombing Yemen, the west risks repeating its own mistakes | Mohamad Bazzi

Instead of retaliating against the Houthi militia, the US and its allies should be pressing Israel to end its invasion of Gaza and accept a ceasefire, says writer and academic Mohamad Bazzi
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com

Fix Gaza and de-escalate. Don't pour oil on the fire...
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That’s just tosh. Destroying missile bases of a technically-limited opponent is not remotely comparable to trying to shift them from held territory. One is massively easier to do. It can be done and must be. You can’t allow terrorism to determine your foreign policy.
 
Wij

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Scouse said:
Back with the whataboutism and 'guilt by association' bollocks. Anything but what Israel, our ally, is doing right now in Gaza, eh?

You mentioned moral compass...

You're right about one thing though. It's not been great in Yemen. Even when they were under their old governmemt, which were allies with Saudi Arabia (and us).

If you're serious about weakening the west's enemies - Iran, Russia - then you need to get real on Israel. Because Israel is a fucking big weakness that strengthens their hand and weakens ours.
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Sure, keep making the same arguments. At some point I’ll magically understand and accept I was wrong.
 
Scouse

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You're outraged about Russia and Iran, you're not outraged by Saudi Arabia and Israel.

Your compass isn't about the people, it's about supporting the west against our enemies. I don't care about nations, I care about right and wrong. And they're all wrong to a certain degree - but the reason I've got a particular beef about Israel is because they're an ally and my tax dollar goes towards helping them commit such huge unjustifiable atrocities.
 
Wij

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Scouse said:
You're outraged about Russia and Iran, you're not outraged by Saudi Arabia and Israel.

Your compass isn't about the people, it's about supporting the west against our enemies. I don't care about nations, I care about right and wrong. And they're all wrong to a certain degree - but the reason I've got a particular beef about Israel is because they're an ally and my tax dollar goes towards helping them commit such huge unjustifiable atrocities.
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So you would give ground to a group that has killed more civilians in the name of their religion?

I'm not justifying what is going on in Gaza. I just think it's abhorrent to excuse terrorists who have already committed bigger crimes because you have a vague hope it might help stop the one crime you care about. Even though it won't. Twisted logic.
 
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Wij said:
bigger crimes
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Nope. Not even close.

It's not a numbers-only game (although, when compared on a time basis Israel is comfortably winning that at a jog).

Yemen was a civil war. What's happening in Israel isn't - and the pace of death and wholesale suffering that's been inflicted on the entire population of Gaza in the past 3 months at the hands of the Israeli government vastly outstrips the privations of the 9-years of conflict in Yemen.

Pile on the context of a prison population and structural oppression and continual war crimes when at 'peace' (and not confined to Gaza) and the clear objectives of our "allies" then you're talking about an entirely different class of crime.

Entirely false equivalence and yet more Israeli apologism through whataboutism.

And again - unless you're arguing we should go in and stop all wars globally - with Israel we aren't not only not even asking an ally to stop killing children and starving millions - we're helping them.

Gaza is now uninhabitable with any sort of dignity. If Israel stopped murdering tomorrow the terms they would enforce would remain an entirely morally unacceptable situation to keep humans in.

Our current idea of Israel is an abhorrent failure. It needs to die and be replaced with something that has the possibility of delivering justice, safety and equality.

There's no equivalence here. Israel is committing the worst crime - and it's people largely support it because the idea that Israel is founded upon enables them.

Militant Islam is the biggest threat in the world right now - and we are weighing in against that. But Israel is an eminently solveable problem - one we must solve, and be seen to be solving, if we are to claim our moral authority. And more - to simply do the right thing where we can.
 
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Wij

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Scouse

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You seem happy to side with the murderous Saudi Arabian regime against Iran in a "the enemy of my enemy is my friend"-style pact @Wij.

These people are praising Houthi's for targetting ships bound for/trading with Israel. After the bombings by the UK and US the Houthi's might target container ships bound for us now, so "well done" to us for scoring an own goal not really in the name of Israel, and getting us directly involved militarily on the side of genocidal maniacs. (If you disagree then we now are at a very minimum in the eyes of the world).

What's happening in Yemen is horrendous - but our allies the Saudi's have blood on their hands too so you can't lay all the blame at the feet of the Houthi's.

Meanwhile, Houthi's are attacking ships bound for genocidal maniacs. The reason people cheer that is not because they support child soldiers. It's because in a fucked-up world someone external is actually trying to hurt Israel where it matters.

Meanwhile, we're helping Israel kill children.

No amount of whataboutism removes that stain.
 
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Oh, and Rachel Riley? You might as well be posting tweets from Bibi himself.

She did tweet something sensible: "At what point do we say 'enough'"?

Unfortunately, Rachel and I are talking about very different things.
 
Wij

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Scouse said:
You seem happy to side with the murderous Saudi Arabian regime against Iran in a "the enemy of my enemy is my friend"-style pact @Wij.
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I don’t know how many times I need to keep saying it but it isn’t picking a side in the Saudi/Iran conflict. Some cunts try to stop shipping in international waters, not just those bound for Israel either, and this is an inevitable response. They can’t not do it. Incident, response. The response may be against a regime which is on one side of a conflict but that’s on them.

We’ve already sort of picked a side in the west in that we are happy to sell arms to Saudi but that’s as far as it goes. They don’t need our money and we don’t aid them militarily.
 
Wij

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Oh, and Rachel Riley? You might as well be posting tweets from Bibi himself.

She did tweet something sensible: "At what point do we say 'enough'"?

Unfortunately, Rachel and I are talking about very different things.
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Yes, the fact that it’s from that uppity Jewess is the important thing to focus on. Not the child soldiers.
 
Scouse

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Wij said:
Some cunts try to stop shipping in international waters, not just those bound for Israel either, and this is an inevitable response. They can’t not do it. Incident, response.
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Bollocks to this assessment.

Some cunts are attacking Israeli-associated vessels, likely with Iranian intelligence, in direct response to Israel's genocidal rampage against it's own citizens. We've bombed them because we're on Israel's side and it suits us economically. End of.
 
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Wij said:
Yes, the fact that it’s from that uppity Jewess is the important thing to focus on. Not the child soldiers.
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Don't get that way with me. I've no objection to her or anyone's desire to follow whatever batshit crazy religion they desire. It's her staunch and overt pro-zionist stance that I'm staunchly, and correctly, against.

And she should stay away from twitter as her blind zionism means she exhibits a rather embarassing propensity to fuck it all up in a rather monumental fashion. :)

Either way - pushing it back at you - you'd rather focus on missiles being fired at a handful of Israel-associated boats than actual genocide.
 
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Yes, the source. I'm aware. But I'm not on twitter, and it's convenient. And convenience doesn't hold anyone else back.
 
Wij

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Don't get that way with me. I've no objection to her or anyone's desire to follow whatever batshit crazy religion they desire. It's her staunch and overt pro-zionist stance that I'm staunchly, and correctly, against.

And she should stay away from twitter as her blind zionism means she exhibits a rather embarassing propensity to fuck it all up in a rather monumental fashion. :)

Either way - pushing it back at you - you'd rather focus on missiles being fired at a handful of Israel-associated boats than actual genocide.
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I’m not focusing on it. You brought it up remember. I’m just disagreeing with you by saying that there’s no good reason to start supporting Islamic terrorists because they claim to be doing the terrorism in the name of a cause you agree with.

And they aren’t just Israeli boats and it doesn’t matter anyway. Terrorism in international waters will always be responded to. Houthis are horrific and just because you think Israel is doesn’t make them any less so.

And it doesn’t fucking help Gaza at all.

Not discussing further. Pointless bollocks.
 
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Wij said:
And it doesn’t fucking help Gaza at all.
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I'd argue it's helped the palestinian cause immensely - and substantially weakend us.

Certainly, it's made the rest of the world take notice that we're willing to bomb other countries to protect Israeli interests, even when no regional country is willing to do so. Nobody believes it's solely to protect "international shipping lanes" whatever western governments say.
 
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I don't like the Saudis, but I also don't accept the fact the Houthis think they have any right to attack ship going through an international shipping lane....in reality I dislike most of the ME.
 
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Embattle said:
I don't like the Saudis, but I also don't accept the fact the Houthis think they have any right to attack ship going through an international shipping lane....in reality I dislike most of the ME.
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Agree - of course they've no "right". But they've declared war on Israel in solidarity with the palestinians and in the absence of being able to bomb tel aviv, they're attacking Israeli ships.

In a world of shit this, for me, is the least of the problems. Yemen is surrounded by arab states - and none of them want to stop the houthis. It's not US or UK-bound ships that are getting attacked either.
 
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Technically don't you have to be a country to declare war, Houthis are little more than another bunch of terrorists.
 
Scouse

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Embattle said:
Technically don't you have to be a country to declare war, Houthis are little more than another bunch of terrorists.
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They'd argue freedom fighters and when they enter government that'll be that.

To be fair, attacking shipping has probably done that cause a lot of harm. Saudi's wanted to pull out for ages as they've been full of fail. But I think it'll all be harder now
 
Scouse

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Ho ho ho. One state. Equal rights. They fucking know it:

www.theguardian.com

Netanyahu’s rejection of Palestinian state unacceptable, says David Lammy

Shadow foreign secretary says Israeli president must explain how post-conflict Gaza will operate
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com

Of course, the Palestinian people deserve a state, and if they don’t, the consequence of that is either one state in which Benjamin Netanyahu would have to explain how Palestinians and Israelis live side by-side with equal rights, or no state, in which what he is really saying is occupation, and siege continues
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Face. Map. Wipe. (Metaphorically)

Zionism needs to die.
 
JBP|

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I'm just gonna chip in here and say that Traitors is on in a bit.
 
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