Zimbabwe Election...

[dysfunction]

"Robert Mugabe's party has lost its majority in parliament for the first time since Zimbabwean independence in 1980, official results show. "

This is great news indeed!!

Now the MDC just needs to win the Presidential election as well!!

Either that or kick him out!!

BBC NEWS | World | Africa | Mugabe's Zanu-PF loses majority

 

[Damini]

You've got a lot more faith in the system than I do. I can't see him going without a fair bit of blood being spilt in the process. I think he'll find some way to challenge the outcome. The only other way is some kind of agreement where he retains a political seat, and is therefore immune to prosecution, which would just be sickening.

 

[Scouse]

What sickens me is that, although I believe that Mugabe and Zanu-PF are monsters, I can't see MDC being much better.

If the (MDC) numbers are to be believed 50.3% voted for the MDC. That's not much ahead of Mugabe despite quite draconian sanctions which have been foisted on the Zimbabwean people to, effectively, force them into making the "right" choice. (And, lets face it, the elections were hardly free or fair so 0.3% deciding the presidential elections is 'unsafe' to say the least).

Yes, if the MDC gain power the sanctions will be lifted and we'll throw money at Zimbabwe, lifting their standard of living dramatically - but did we have to collectively punish them in the first place?

'Democracy' in action. (The same sort of democracy that Hamas found themselves on the end of). Or am I being really naive?

I guess Mugabe out is the right result - but was the cost worth it?

 

[ECA]

If the (MDC) numbers are to be believed 50.3% voted for the MDC. That's not much ahead of Mugabe despite quite draconian sanctions which have been foisted on the Zimbabwean people to, effectively, force them into making the "right" choice. (And, lets face it, the elections were hardly free or fair so 0.3% deciding the presidential elections is 'unsafe' to say the least).

Yes, if the MDC gain power the sanctions will be lifted and we'll throw money at Zimbabwe, lifting their standard of living dramatically - but did we have to collectively punish them in the first place?

What sanctions? MY GOD WE WONT LET MUGABE AND HIS MINISTERS INTO EUROPE.

 

[Scouse]

What sanctions? MY GOD WE WONT LET MUGABE AND HIS MINISTERS INTO EUROPE.

That's why I asked if I was being naive.

I'm no Zimbabwe expert - but I was under the impression that there were also tough economic sanctions on Zimbabwe? Had a number of discussions with people on this and have been told that (Zanu-PF aside) a lot of the inflationary issues are simply because of trade restrictions etc?

Africa has sort of passed me by politically - I know more about other areas of the world...


...first linky I came across, not even read it in detail...

Don't get me wrong, I think Mugabe out is a necessity, but I'm commenting on methodology, that's all.....

 

[DaGaffer]

Its funny how Rhodesia survived for a long time under far harsher sanctions without collapsing to Weimar republic levels of inflation. Probably because they sold goods from their well-managed farms to (white) South Africa. Zimbabwe had the opportunity to do the same with the whole of Africa (other African leaders have been extremely reticent to criticise Mugabe), but they have nothing to sell because the farms are all ruined by the so-called "War Veterans" (most of whom weren't even out of short pants during UDI). Zimbabwe wouldn't need the IMF if they hadn't completely destroyed their economy in the first place. Yes the population are being burned by sanctions, but the damage was done before sanctions were put in place.

 

[Damini]

They also turned away food aid, because they refused to acknowledge that booting/killing the very succesful white farmers (and in many cases, black farmers who just didn't happen to be a mugabe crony) off their land didn't work out so well. No, according to the party line, both drought and Tony Blair's chemical weapons attacks on them mean that crops no longer grow in the breadbasket of Africa, but even so, they had plenty of food to go round, k thx bye.

Anyway Scouse, if you think Draconian sanctions are in place now, you really need to read back and see why they've been put there. This is a prime example, showing how he deals with an area that voted against him, and also show how bad the situation is.

Operation Murambatsvina - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Did you know that when he took power, a zimbabwean dollar was worth more than an american one? That the female life expectancy in the country is now 34, whereas ten years ago it was 63?

I went to a book launch of a book about Zimbabwe, and there was a female lawyer from there who continued to stand up to the regime, despite being driven from her house in the middle of the night with a sack over her head, and being placed in mock executions again and again, despite being beaten and having friends disappear.

I hope he gets voted out, and I hope he's made to stand trial for everything he's done.

 

[throdgrain]

You can take the boy out of the bush ....

 

[Mabs]

always worried me when this shit happens
if hed won, they would still be in trouble
if he loses, i fully expect people to start disappearing, newspaper editors getting murdered, bodies pilling up, and they will still be fucked cos he wont go anywhere

 

[rynnor]

I had a long chat down the pub to my mate who was formerly a White Zimbabwean farmer who left about 4 years ago (though some of his family still live there).

He said the sanctions were weak - you could still buy and sell stuff even to the uk via 3rd parties.

He reckons the thing that keeps the country going is all the money that gets sent back home by former residents - this influx of cash n goods stops it crashing completely.

On the MDC he pretty much agreed that they would be basically swapping one lot of cronies for another but he still saw it as a significant step to an eventually stable country.

He also stressed the significance of this being the first african country that had kicked out its liberators - he reckoned a lot of the other african nations support mugabe because they dont want this precedant set.

 

[Chilly]

Prime example of why quick transition is almost always bad, no matter what the start and end points are. Yes, the situation where white farmers controlled the food supply was distasteful to the majority black population. Yes, that had to change to end up in a fairer and more market oriented economy. The solution is not to simply boot the white farmers out and install inexperienced and unsuitable managers in their place. The solution is to force apprentaships and training for new farmers (be they black or white - whoever signs up) and then offer a phased switchover of ownership.

the sad thing is that everyone knows that's the right way to have handled it except that it was a political move that was predestined to failure. Same shit happened on a smaller scale in SA, and the results are starting to really show now with a large amount of white south africans leaving the country due to heavyhanded positive discrimination in favour of the majority black population.

 

[Scouse]

I hope he gets voted out, and I hope he's made to stand trial for everything he's done.

I agree 100% with this - but it's unlikely he'll ever get put on trial. Just like Tony and George won't stand trial for the 2.5% of the Iraqi population who've died who wouldn't have had Saddam remained in power...

(Not that I liked Saddam either, before someone jumps on me for that!)

Unfortunately, being a politician usually means you get off scott free for all the horrendous shit that you've done in your life.

On the MDC he pretty much agreed that they would be basically swapping one lot of cronies for another but he still saw it as a significant step to an eventually stable country.

That's what I was wondering. If it's a step towards sanctions being lifted then it can only be a good thing for the people of Zimbabwe - but I'd hate to think that the MDC are just another Zanu-PF...

 

[Litmus]

I dont think he'll go with out a fight.. i can see him useing military force to try and keep him self in control for abit longer.

 

[DaGaffer]

Prime example of why quick transition is almost always bad, no matter what the start and end points are. Yes, the situation where white farmers controlled the food supply was distasteful to the majority black population. Yes, that had to change to end up in a fairer and more market oriented economy. The solution is not to simply boot the white farmers out and install inexperienced and unsuitable managers in their place. The solution is to force apprentaships and training for new farmers (be they black or white - whoever signs up) and then offer a phased switchover of ownership.

the sad thing is that everyone knows that's the right way to have handled it except that it was a political move that was predestined to failure. Same shit happened on a smaller scale in SA, and the results are starting to really show now with a large amount of white south africans leaving the country due to heavyhanded positive discrimination in favour of the majority black population.

This is actually crap from beginning to end. The black population have no particular "right" to those farms. The land was scrub before the whites arrived and the black population of Zimbabwe are actually just about as recent immigrants to the region as the whites (the original black populations were wiped out by Southward-migrating Matabele, themselves being chased by Zulus, no more than 40 years before Rhodes was beginning his little adventure). Just because the majority population of Zimbabwe is black, don't assume this gives them some kind of moral claim. As for "developing a fairer and more market oriented economy", that's exactly what they had before Mugabe ruined it. Zimbabwean farmers paid the highest wages in the whole bloody continent but they still made the country the breadbasket of Africa.

If the Zimbabwean government wanted the farms back because they thought it was a votewinner (and that's the only justification) then the answer was simple; pay the farmers a fair price for their working farms, and if they said no, live with it, which is what Mugabe promised the Whites back in 1980, when ZANU were shitting themselves that the whites would abandon the country and head for South Africa or the UK and leave the economy in ruins (ironic huh?).

 

[Chilly]

I never said anything about rights. I'm just pointing out how majority rule works. Look at any country and no one in particular has a "right" to any of it if you go far enough back. Just look at the wars over in the holy land, precisely the same thing.

 

[Sharma]

You can take the boy out of the bush ....

But the only way to take the bush out of the boy is veet immac?

 

[Guest]

we should invade and get all his oil, oh wait hes got none, fuck that then, leave them to it............................