Politics 2024/25 General Election Voting Intention (2022)

[Embattle]

Oof:
View attachment 50352

That is sort of how I thought it might go.

 

[Embattle]

Nigel keeping up with the Trump like comments.

 

[Raven]

Being the optimist, they will make such a fuck-up at local level, it may keep them out of power.

 

[Scouse]

Being the optimist, they will make such a fuck-up at local level, it may keep them out of power.

Just humans doing the same sort of shit that other humans will do. Nobody will be able to tell much of a difference.

 

[DaGaffer]

I've not been paying attention to all this, so can someone explain it to me? Is it because Labour are too Tory? Or not Tory enough?

 

[Embattle]

I've not been paying attention to all this, so can someone explain it to me? Is it because Labour are too Tory? Or not Tory enough?

14 years of Tory rule have soured people's opinion of government even more than in the past, especially the last few years of the Tory shitshow. So you get a new captain of the ship in the form of Labour, who goes on to make a few whopping own goals even though there may of been a case for what they did the public was already pissed. Thus, you get some people who like what Reform says and promises, but don't look under the hood at the actual reality of what they say versus the practical reality of doing it and then some are sending a message to the main parties not to take the piss. Then people like Scouse believe that Tories and Labour are essentially the same.

 

[caLLous]

14 years of Tory rule have soured people's opinion of government even more than in the past, especially the last few years of the Tory shitshow. So you get a new captain of the ship in the form of Labour, who goes on to make a few whopping own goals even though there may of been a case for what they did the public was already pissed. Thus, you get some people who like what Reform says and promises, but don't look under the hood at the actual reality of what they say versus the practical reality of doing it and then some are sending a message to the main parties not to take the piss. Then people like Scouse believe that Tories and Labour are essentially the same.

The problem is, while the Reform councillors will all probably constantly make fools of themselves, due to the nature of who they are and who Farage is, they'll still get away with deflecting and whining that it's all really someone else's fault and enough idiots will lap it up. They lie to get into power then they lie when they're there to blame someone else for their own failings. Yes, yes, welcome to politics, but these aren't slightly exagerrated manifesto pledges, they're outright lies that these populists have no intention of ever fulfilling. Some seem to think that sort of behaviour deserves to be rewarded by defending them and saying they're all as bad as each other, er I mean "playing devils advocate".

 

[Scouse]

14 years of Tory rule have soured people's opinion

Nah. I was optimistic in '97 and drank in the d-ream kool-aid thinking things were going to get better under a Labour government.

Then I found out what they were - and am now watching Starmer finish off the failed Blairite project, whilst redoing Tory austerity.

They're not "the same" but there is not much materially different between them. And I'll say it again - material is the word.

Voters can see this. Which is why they don't turn up, or vote Reform.

Edit: @caLLous - they all lie. Labour and Tories and Reform. You think that just because Reform's are bigger lies, or more obvious, that they're somehow worse? I don't - because lying is lying.

What do you think people should have voted when they desparately want change. Lying Tories, Lying Labour or Lying Shitshow Reform?

If you say Lying Tories or Lying Labour then you are part of the problem. You're ignoring the fact that these Brexit-voting asshats have been repeatedly failed by the traditional parties. Voting Tory or Labour, for them, is out of the question.

Crying "But Reform will be worse!" isn't facing their problems in (at least) intellectual solidarity. It's simply ignoring and dismissing them.

 

[DaGaffer]

14 years of Tory rule have soured people's opinion of government even more than in the past, especially the last few years of the Tory shitshow. So you get a new captain of the ship in the form of Labour, who goes on to make a few whopping own goals even though there may of been a case for what they did the public was already pissed. Thus, you get some people who like what Reform says and promises, but don't look under the hood at the actual reality of what they say versus the practical reality of doing it and then some are sending a message to the main parties not to take the piss. Then people like Scouse believe that Tories and Labour are essentially the same.

Yeah I'm still not getting the logic. "Both parties are cunts and incompetent so I know, I'll vote for all that, squared*.

 

[Embattle]

Yeah I'm still not getting the logic. "Both parties are cunts and incompetent so I know, I'll vote for all that, squared*.

Logic.....


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BS_gLFOrjMw

 

[Scouse]

Yeah I'm still not getting the logic. "Both parties are cunts and incompetent so I know, I'll vote for all that, squared*.

It isn't logic. It's emotion. And that's fine, it's how most of us work.

They can't bring themselves to vote for their rapists. Reform haven't fucked them yet.

 

[Gwadien]

Nah. I was optimistic in '97 and drank in the d-ream kool-aid thinking things were going to get better under a Labour government.

Then I found out what they were - and am now watching Starmer finish off the failed Blairite project, whilst redoing Tory austerity.

They're not "the same" but there is not much materially different between them. And I'll say it again - material is the word.

Voters can see this. Which is why they don't turn up, or vote Reform.

Edit: @caLLous - they all lie. Labour and Tories and Reform. You think that just because Reform's are bigger lies, or more obvious, that they're somehow worse? I don't - because lying is lying.

What do you think people should have voted when they desparately want change. Lying Tories, Lying Labour or Lying Shitshow Reform?

If you say Lying Tories or Lying Labour then you are part of the problem. You're ignoring the fact that these Brexit-voting asshats have been repeatedly failed by the traditional parties. Voting Tory or Labour, for them, is out of the question.

Crying "But Reform will be worse!" isn't facing their problems in (at least) intellectual solidarity. It's simply ignoring and dismissing them.

So the only real thing that the parties can do under your line of thinking is by accepting what Reform says as truth and therefore acting upon it - which they already are but are ramping it up.

Sure, I agree with you it's unlikely that any mainstream political parties these days are going to go 'yeah most issues boil down to wealth inequality, so therefore let's address it' but I also don't think we should be pandering to people that think if we scrap DEI, get rid of immigrants and addressing 'trans issues' will be the silver bullet that fixes the country, because it won't - it'll cause the above to become perpetual issues which will never be addressed whilst the real issues are ignored because we don't have people adult enough to address them head on.

I'm still going to point and laugh at Reform voters because I think they are stupid, there's no educating your way out of populist echo chambers.

 

[Scouse]

So the only real thing that the parties can do under your line of thinking is by accepting what Reform says as truth and therefore acting upon it - which they already are but are ramping it up.

Whatever gives you the idea that I think something so stupid?

The main parties needed to offer a genuine alternative - and actually deliver on it. As now proven - the Cons & Lab are identical economically. The Tories have actually shown better stewardship of the environment than Labour are shaping up with, now they're in power.

Sure, I agree with you it's unlikely that any mainstream political parties these days are going to go 'yeah most issues boil down to wealth inequality, so therefore let's address it'

So, you're asking people who think they're having a really raw deal to vote for more raw deal. Lets be very clear on this.

People won't continue to do that. They'd rather see things burn than continue to vote for suffering. That's why, since the 2008 crash, we were always going to turn to populists. History shows that this is what happens, end of. It's not irrational - it's the natural consequence on huge swathes of the population struggling and feeling like their lives are shit.

Which they are.

So we're doing the standard dance. People are turning to populists, and the rest of the country are calling them thick because they're doing something they don't like. Brexit should have been a wake-up call, but it wasn't. We continue to shit on them - so they, quite rationally, would rather we all fucking burned.

but I also don't think we should be pandering to people that think if we scrap DEI, get rid of immigrants and addressing 'trans issues' will be the silver bullet that fixes the country, because it won't - it'll cause the above to become perpetual issues which will never be addressed whilst the real issues are ignored because we don't have people adult enough to address them head on.

To address the policy points:

• DEI is racist, it's already served it's purpose, there's no moral argument to keep it any more and plenty of evidence that it's now doing more harm than good. (Just one example - angry young white men who can't get jobs voting Reform. You can hate them, but you can't ignore them - they won't let you).
• Immigrants - we've undergone massive wholesale demographic change in the UK. It doesn't make you a racist to say "enough". It's a perfectly valid viewpoint to hold. Welcome to democracy. It means you have to acknowledge that plenty of people have different viewpoints on what they think the UK should be. Both the Tories and Labour are aware of this, and neither have delivered on that vote. So given the two parties in charge - for people who have immigration at the forefront of their minds, it would be insane to not vote Reform.
• Trans issues - that's been settled by the Supreme Court. Sex is real, and just becaue you like dressing like a girl or man, and perhaps medically mutilate your genitals, it doesn't change your sex. However, I do hope that most women's refuges, swimming baths, single-sex spaces etc. still admit trans men and women into the place of their preferred gender. Because 99.9% of them aren't cunts and aren't a threat to other people - and we should treat people nicely. This really is fuck all to do with Reform any more.

it'll cause the above to become perpetual issues which will never be addressed whilst the real issues are ignored because we don't have people adult enough to address them head on.

Most of us don't care about the reform lot. Most of us suck the dick of "I've got enough cash, please don't come for me". People on this forum have expressed the view that we should be grateful to have jobs! - that's how fucking whipped we are as a population.

If humans actually gave a shit about economic equality, I mean really gave a shit, then we'd fix it. But we've been going down this road for a long time now, and we're not fixing it, are we.

So this is what happens:


Reform have returned 85%-ish as many as the other big three parties combined. These people aren't all dumb - they've simply not that much to lose.

Given the fact that the Tories and Labour have proven they don't give a shit about all these people who voted reform - and it's a fucking lot of them - then we get what we deserve.

 

[Scouse]

More calls from Labour for ID Cards on the back of losses to Reform.

They're a fucking transparent, opportunistic, wankstain of a one-trick pony aren't they?

 

[Embattle]

As I've always said, I want a multi-function ID Card

 

[Scouse]

As I've always said, I want a multi-function ID Card

I knew I'd make you happy with that post babe 😉

 

[Overdriven]

As I've always said, I want a multi-function ID Card

At this point why not.

Born: Registered > Passport auto-created for you > Hit whatever age and National Insurance auto adds > Provisional license adds > Full time driving license adds > Other IDs licenses/passports auto renewed etc.

Now getting a non scum-fuckary organisation to make sure it's not exploited would be fun.

 

[Scouse]

Now getting a non scum-fuckary organisation to make sure it's not exploited would be fun.

/ Sigh: You mean governments?


Governments, by their very nature, cannot be trusted to used centralised identity systems responsibly. History proves this - and granting governments a centralised way to store, and track the personal details and movements of their populations creates the perfect conditions for the abuses of mass surveillance and political persecution (and worse).

It's not a matter of if a government will do this, simply a matter of when.

Everyone is angry about Reform getting voted in and Trump being an authoritarian orange asshat - but what I find surprising is that people are shocked or surprised by this. Human beings are inherently authoritarian - free speech, freedom of movement, the conditions of individual autonomy are not the natural order of things for our species. They have to be fought for and defended in perpetuity - we always seem to regress to the mean.

Germany has ID cards, but it's against the law for the information to be stored in a single registry and no single authority is allowed full access to all of the data. It's part of the German constitution and brought in because of historical proof that governments change, and that not all of them are well-meaning.

The ID card argument is the argument for a future Stazi, no matter how well-meaning the original intention.


So the "why not" is always pertinent. There are no conditions under which a future government couldn't or wouldn't abuse it's population. Unless we invent a foolproof way to organise human societies that would prevent this from happening there will never be a sensible "lets do it" argument.

 

[Gwadien]

Germany has ID cards, but it's against the law for the information to be stored in a single registry and no single authority is allowed full access to all of the data. It's part of the German constitution and brought in because of historical proof that governments change, and that not all of them are well-meaning.

Let's do this then?

 

[Scouse]

Let's do this then?

I really worry about a written constitution which would be a precursor for ID cards. We'd have massive government overreach if our government wrote a constution now - it'd be sold as "codifying rights" - but really what would happen is that by not specifying all the stuff we do by convention, we'd lose huge swathes of our freedoms.

There's no benefit to ID cards (and loads of downsides to having such a strong form of ID, rather than multiple softer versions (which is a much safer system practically)) that makes any of this worth the risk.

 

[Scouse]

National autism database eh @Gwadien:

‘A slippery slope to eugenics’: advocates reject RFK Jr’s national autism database

US health secretary claims data will be used for research but has not addressed privacy concerns and potential misuse

www.theguardian.com