Murdered Baby?

[yaruar]

If I was to go outside and kill someone now it would have nothing to do with how I was brought up, just an decision made on the spot.

However I feel that people like to point at parents or a poor upbringing as an excuse. It is almost like we create an excuse to let them off before they actually do any wrong. It is not a good example to set.

No, most people wouldn't just go out and kill someone on a spur of the moment thing, because they have things in their head which tell them it's wrong and inhibit the action. To be able to go out and murder someone in cold blood does mean that something is broken, otherwise we'd all be doing it. If by looking into the background of individuals like this you can save the suffering or death of just one child in the future then killing then essentially means you have the blood of the future victims on your hands IMO.

 

[yaruar]

I never claimed to be infallible, dude. If I read Throd's post incorrectly then he's most assuredly going to tell me so

I want to know what he said about me now, Unfair!

 

[throdgrain]

I said perhaps you should go tell a peodophile to rub it better, there maybe you can read it before he edits it again for whatever reason.

I appreciate you have a considered opinion, even it is completley misguided to my mind.

I also think that some people will just argue for the sake of it, which on a subject such as this just fills me with contempt to be honest.

edit
Im glad Ive enabled sigs again, when I read mine it just reminds me that Im right.

 

[Calaen]

No, most people wouldn't just go out and kill someone on a spur of the moment thing, because they have things in their head which tell them it's wrong and inhibit the action. To be able to go out and murder someone in cold blood does mean that something is broken, otherwise we'd all be doing it. If by looking into the background of individuals like this you can save the suffering or death of just one child in the future then killing then essentially means you have the blood of the future victims on your hands IMO.

Everybody is different and reacts to situations in a different manner.

For example.. A guy walking in his home to find his wife being roasted in their bed. They will either walk out, or kick ass.

Nothing that has went on before in his life will determine his reaction. The fact is he reacts based on his emotions at the time and we all know emotions are a dangerous tool, they stop you from thinking sensibly. You cannot record this.

 

[TdC]

maybe you can read it before he edits it again for whatever reason.

First time around I read your "you" as meaning "yaruar". That is why I edited the post.

 

[yaruar]

Everybody is different and reacts to situations in a different manner.

For example.. A guy walking in his home to find his wife being roasted in their bed. They will either walk out, or kick ass.

Nothing that has went on before in his life will determine his reaction. The fact is he reacts based on his emotions at the time and we all know emotions are a dangerous tool, they stop you from thinking sensibly. You cannot record this.

Well, their reaction will be different depending on their upbringing/genetic makeup. But i was mainly talking about acts carried out in cold blood with forethought (or totally random) Most people do not commit random acts of violence. Most people don't rape pre pubescent children. Without understanding why things happen we can't prevent them, that is all i'm saying.
And in response to throddy, i don't particually think that prison should be cushy, i think it should fulfill a role as punishment, although it should be part of a bigger picture used to reduce crime in general.

 

[tris-]

this shit has been happening for 100s of years and we still cant prevent it.

 

[psyco]

this shit has been happening for 100s of years and we still cant prevent it.

valid contribution

 

[Calaen]

valid contribution

It does pour water over the lets learn from them process though. Because clearly while capital punishment may not reduce crimes at least it reduces the number of people likely to re offend. Where as trying to learn from them clearly does nothing at all apart from allow them an opportunity to commit another vicous crime.

 

[yaruar]

It does pour water over the lets learn from them process though. Because clearly while capital punishment may not reduce crimes at least it reduces the number of people likely to re offend. Where as trying to learn from them clearly does nothing at all apart from allow them an opportunity to commit another vicous crime.

Fine, in which case resign yourselves to this happening as much as it ever has. And while you're at it, lets have murder rates keeping on rising as clearly you aren't interested in getting to the root causes of the problem.

As i said before, i'm glad i don't live in the world you want to inhabit and that in the real world thankfully some people take the problems of society/psychology seriously and attempt to find solutions to them rather than turning to knee jerk reactions.


http://web.jjay.cuny.edu/~ejeglic/707Lecture7.htm

 

[yaruar]

this shit has been happening for 100s of years and we still cant prevent it.

Bullshit.

 

[Calaen]

Fine, in which case resign yourselves to this happening as much as it ever has. And while you're at it, lets have murder rates keeping on rising as clearly you aren't interested in getting to the root causes of the problem.

As i said before, i'm glad i don't live in the world you want to inhabit and that in the real world thankfully some people take the problems of society/psychology seriously and attempt to find solutions to them rather than turning to knee jerk reactions.


http://web.jjay.cuny.edu/~ejeglic/707Lecture7.htm

Isnt the crime rate in Saudi one of the lowest on the planets? They do not take any shit over there.

The problem is though I would rather live in a world where criminals were punished, instead of having to bow to their so called human rights. its a worse scenario Crime is on the rise because the punishment is exactly what you are talking about.

(Dr Brown)So Mr smith why did you rape and murder that child.....

(Criminal) Erm I grew up on a council estate, with just one parent...

(Dr Brown) ok well hows about we put you in a nice cell, with a computer and a gym and feed you regularly for 15 years, which will probably be 7 if you are good of course.

(7 years later he is released)

(Dr Brown) So Mr Smith why did you carry out another disgraceful act of violence against that elderly woman?

(Criminal) Erm I grew up on a council estate, with just one parent...

(Dr Brown) ok well hows about we put you in a nice cell AGAIN, with a computer and a gym and feed you regularly for 15 years, which will probably be 7 if you are good of course.

 

[Calaen]

My world


(Judge) I sentence you to death Mr Smith for being evil.

The end.

no more cycle of some evil bastard having children then turning them into an evil bastard by abusing them. It is a vicious circle remove the bad seed and no more will sprout up from his evil doings.

 

[tris-]

Bullshit.

how exactly are we preventing it if it still happens?

in fact, how can knowing the inner workings of a nutter stop them committing a crime?

taking into account we dont actually know they are a nutter untill the crime is committed and someone is dead.

 

[yaruar]

Isnt the crime rate in Saudi one of the lowest on the planets? They do not take any shit over there.

Actually that's a bit of a myth.

Looking at the figures for murder Saudi has far more per capita than the UK for the years I can see.

1999 - Saudi courts dealt with 616 murder cases - 21.5 million population
1999 - In england and wales there were 765 murder cases - over 50 million population...
1999 - USA over 15,000 murders with capital punishment in a number of states.

http://www.parapundit.com/archives/cat_saudi_arabia.html
http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs/hosb601.pdf

And the crime rates are actually rising sharply in Saudi. Their low crime rates are supposedly more cultural as an influx of foreign workers upping the rates, although with 30% or so unemployment petty crime has always been high umongst the poorer people in saudi. If they have low rates for violent crime it's also probably more to do with the ban on alcohol as most violetn crime in teh west is in some way related to alcohol or drugs.

"A report this year by the Saudi Arabian Monetary Agency said crime among young jobless Saudis rose 320 percent from 1990 to 1996 and is expected to increase by an additional 136 percent by 2005." - this was in 2004

Punishment doesn't have much effect on crime figures.

 

[dysfunction]

The world is filled with all sorts of people. Some really terrible people who rape and kill toddlers and good people who take care of them. And there will be a continual supply until someone finds the gene that causes it and weeds it out...

Jailing people gets some off the street in she short term which is great and they don't re-offend and others who will carry on and perhaps do more terrible things till the cows come home...

It would be good if you could distinguish between the two. That way you could keep the perpetual ones in jail or kill them off and the others you can set free after their punishment.

Jails should not be places where its comfortable. The UK's jails have better rooms and facilities than what I had Uni and I paid a bloody fortune for that tiny room ffs!!

 

[Calaen]

Punishment doesn't have much effect on crime figures.

Neither does treating them like royalty.
As Tris has already said you cannot tell if someone is a psycho unless they kill someone.

Dys sums it up nicely and he is shit at CSS as well

 

[yaruar]

Neither does treating them like royalty.

Where have i ever said that here? As i said, personally i would make prison less cushy, although give people opporunities to learn/etc whilst in there, there shold also be a more spartan regime in terms of luxuries.

 

[nath]

As Tris has already said you cannot tell if someone is a psycho unless they kill someone.

That's actually completely untrue.

 

[Calaen]

That's actually completely untrue.

Sorry I didnt really put enough information in :-(

What I meant was some people just snap, until they do you cannt ween them out.

 

[tris-]

That's actually completely untrue.

so lets say somehow we learn something from the guy thats done this particular crime.

how does that knowledge stop other people from doing it again?

would the government send out surveys, questionnaires etc and see if they fit a profile? if someone fits the profile, they send people to monitor them or do we just go down a route like minority report. people are arrested before they commit the crime as they fit the profile of someone who would do it.

its all well good finding out why he did what he did, but is it really any use?

 

[Calaen]

Where have i ever said that here? As i said, personally i would make prison less cushy, although give people opporunities to learn/etc whilst in there, there shold also be a more spartan regime in terms of luxuries.

No I know you have not mate, thats just the way it is, because we cannot treat them bad because its wrong.

In an ideal world criminals would be educated and be given a proper chance to make a go of it in society. I always think back to Shawshank redemption when the old guy gets released, he is so out of touch with nothing else in the world he kills himself.

But what chance has a murderer got of leaving prison with a degree anda college education of getting a decent job? Not much cause as soon as he sticks criminal record on his application they will put it in the bin.

Money could be better spent on curing diseases than keeping the real bad people alive in a life of comfort.

 

[nath]

so lets say somehow we learn something from the guy thats done this particular crime.

how does that knowledge stop other people from doing it again?

I don't know - I don't work in that field. However I do know that the death penalty is wrong, and knowing/understanding more about people who do this sort of thing and why they've done it can only be a good thing. Plus before you say it, there's *always* a reason, regardless of how insignificant it may seem, there's always a reason for someone doing something.

 

[Calaen]

I don't know - I don't work in that field. However I do know that the death penalty is wrong, and knowing/understanding more about people who do this sort of thing and why they've done it can only be a good thing. Plus before you say it, there's *always* a reason, regardless of how insignificant it may seem, there's always a reason for someone doing something.

Dont you think though, that it is impossible to label a specific treatment?

 

[nath]

I'm in no place to comment since I'm not a psychologist/psychiatrist. The only thing I *know* is that attempting to understand these things is far better than the attitude "Bad-man bad. Kill bad man."

 

[Calaen]

Well I respect your opinion.

Plus I think its the only time I have had a conversation with people disagreeing with me where I have not spouted off a sack full of childish bollocks My management training must be working

 

[Trem]

Well I respect your opinion.

Plus I think its the only time I have had a conversation with people disagreeing with me where I have not spouted off a sack full of childish bollocks My management training must be working

In all fairness yaruar always keeps his cool and never gets angered by stuff on this forum. I have never agreed with him on pretty much anything but I have lots of respect for the guy for the way he discusses stuff.

 

[psyco]

My world


(Judge) I sentence you to death Mr Smith for being evil.

The end.

no more cycle of some evil bastard having children then turning them into an evil bastard by abusing them. It is a vicious circle remove the bad seed and no more will sprout up from his evil doings.

but thats not dealing with the problem is it? just a lazy half arsed attempt

 

[tris-]

In all fairness yaruar always keeps his cool and never gets angered by stuff on this forum. I have never agreed with him on pretty much anything but I have lots of respect for the guy for the way he discusses stuff.

same here. hes far too intelligent for me to beat him in a debate

 

[yaruar]

In all fairness yaruar always keeps his cool and never gets angered by stuff on this forum. I have never agreed with him on pretty much anything but I have lots of respect for the guy for the way he discusses stuff.

Actually i do get a red rag sometimes, but i always delete what i was going to write and then write something a little less inflamatory.
I got my flaming out of my system 10+ years ago on usenet