Question State Terrorism?

[Scouse]

~Scouse, Silverhood did not say whatever they do is ok, he pointed out that nations do whatever they feel necessary to defend themselves.

Sorry you feel that way Ch3t, but I disagree:

I was paraphrasing. He said that he supported states in doing whatever is necessary to defend themselves - and that included torture, assasination and kidnapping.

Therefore I think it was accurate paraphrase to say "whatever they do is ok". Here's the quote:

Hamas represent those people, they are religeous extremists just the same as thier people are........Hamas perfectly represent what they want

Labour were in power for, what, 12 years? They didn't represent the views of even the majority of the people in the UK. Do you really think Hamas represents the views of all 1.5 million palestinians trapped in Gaza?

Even the babies? Or just the sub-5's? Sub 10's? At what age do they automatically become culpable and deserving of death Throd?


It's obvious you like muslims less than jews - I suspect that's the reason for the posts of the other "Israel defenders". I'm trying to challenge that by showing that Israel are the agressors here. Do you also like n1gg3rs a lot less than whites? Enough to let them be slaughtered by whites? It's practiaclly the same thing....

Well that's a sad thing.

That's how I feel. Sad, not angry. Especially since I rate the intellect of most on here (including the throdster).

 

[Ch3tan]

I really think you are mis-representing what Silverhood said, he doesn't say he supports what the states are doing to defend themselves, just that he believes they have a right to.

Xane left the thread for the same reasons, stop putting words into people's mouths, if you are unsure what they mean then just ask them?

 

[Raven]

They have every right to defend themselves, on the same note so do the Palestinians, who also have every right to fight to take their land back and win freedom from oppression. Would you just sit back if a foreign country decided to invade and build on, lets say East Anglia? ofc you wouldn't. Not to mention the blockade of a country just because you don't like the democratically elected government. Maybe if Israel wasn't run by a bunch of ***** Palestine would have voted for someone more relaxed.

Regardless of this, attacking an unarmed civilian ship in international waters is hardly defending yourselves is it? There are plenty of ways of stopping a ship, it is not necessary to shoot at random people on the top deck from helicopters.

 

[Deebs]

Would you just sit back if a foreign country decided to invade and build on, lets say East Anglia? ofc you wouldn't.

No, but I would sit back if they invaded Scotland or Wales

/me is attempting to bring a little humour into this thread.

 

[Scouse]

I really think you are mis-representing what Silverhood said, he doesn't say he supports what the states are doing to defend themselves, just that he believes they have a right to... stop putting words into people's mouths, if you are unsure what they mean then just ask them?

I didn't think I misunderstood what he meant - I thought I'd understood it pretty clearly.

If he thinks I've misrepresented his views all he has to do is say "no, it's not like that" - but he hasn't.

Xane left the thread for the same reasons,

I think xane left the thread because I started asking direct questions - which he refused to answer. In fact, xane didn't answer any of the direct questions.

IMHO, because I tried to forcibly hold up a mirror to his beliefs he buggered off.

 

[Scouse]

/me is attempting to bring a little humour into this thread.

/you was right to do so


But seriously. Scotland and Wales are the exemptions that prove the rules eh? Invade away.

 

[Ch3tan]

IMHO, because I tried to forcibly hold up a mirror to his beliefs he buggered off.

Wow, just wow. Xane actually stated that he had not given any of his personal views on the topic, and yet you are calling them his beliefs?

I think you are blinded by your own ego in this thread Scouse, you are not being objective at all.

 

[throdgrain]

Last post.

You're not going to like it.

OK, here goes.


As I've said before, Hamas is backed by religion, and that despicable piece of hatred the Muslim religion at that. If Hamas say jump, they jump, or god does something bad to them.

Like I said about 40 pages ago, Old women crying over the body of her dead son. All we want is peace!! she weeps. How can we achieve peace old woman? Shall we enter into a dialogue with the Jews like all those over-educated doo-gooders in the west want?

No says the old woman, we just need to kill all the Jews.

 

[throdgrain]

Wow, just wow. Xane actually stated that he had not given any of his personal views on the topic, and yet you are calling them his beliefs?

I think you are blinded by your own ego in this thread Scouse, you are not being objective at all.

Sorry, THIS is the last post.

You're absolutely right in that Ch3t. Everything I read in Scouses posts simply demonstrate his own ego, and that he just has to prove himself right.

Scouse mate, you are either a genius, or a god among men.

(Or maybe you have a very small penis! )

 

[Scouse]

Wow, just wow. Xane actually stated that he had not given any of his personal views on the topic, and yet you are calling them his beliefs?

I think you are blinded by your own ego in this thread Scouse, you are not being objective at all.

Xane was hiding IMHO. I don't think he was arguing from a "devils advocate" standpoint or he'd have had no problem answering the direct questions I put to him.

However, I'm willing to accept your assertion is a possibility. Just in case you're right I promise to go back and read the thread (from the beginning) with as open a mind as I can.

(Not today tho - I'm off out for a curry in a couple of hours and have a f*ckload to do before then - 'cause I've been slacking and posting on here all day)



Edit: Now I've seen throddys posts:

As I've said before, Hamas is backed by religion, and that despicable piece of hatred the Muslim religion at that

Israel is a country founded on religion. It's a place for Jews to live. Just Jews! Not "people of all faiths". Unless Jew is now a "race" in itself?

Scouse mate, you are either a genius, or a god among men.

(Or maybe you have a very small penis! )

All 3, I think you'll find

 

[ECA]

For me at least, people defending Israel is similar to people defending the people who would make godwins law apparent and I'm surprised it hasn't come up already.

I know it's a horrible way to drag the debate down which is why I havn't posted much beyond one liners on this thread and don't really want to get into long discussions about it - but it is defending the indefensible in my POV which is why I don't want to get into big discussions with people - it's not going to go anywhere productive and both sides are just going to feel bitter.

 

[Helme]

Israel doesn't really see the destruction of Israel as every jew dead, they see it as every jew leaving Israel because it's too dangerous to stay. It's hardly surprising considering most jews are very well educated and would do very well in Europe or the US.

I thought this should be clarified.

Also loving that Iran are going to be sanctioned by the UN for developing nuclear weapons, after signing the NPT - while Israel who already has nukes and refuses to sign it isn't even getting a second glance.

<3 American veto powers.

 

[rynnor]

Unless Jew is now a "race" in itself?

Under the race relations act then yes - it is a race.

More practically you cant be jewish unless your mother was so I guess it pretty much is a distinct racial group.

 

[Wij]

On hols so don't have time to read everything but I just read another interesting article by Christopher Hitchens reminding us that Hamas in Gaza does not represent all palestinians and such,,,

The flotilla foul-up pits former friends Israel and Turkey against each other. - By Christopher Hitchens - Slate Magazine

 

[ECA]

Hitchens is on the daily show tonight ( tomorrrow for all us european viewers ). Should be interesting.

 

[Trem]

Not read much of this apart from some of Ch3ts/throds/scouse's posts but you all need to remember that for a LONG time this Israel/Palestine thing has been totally biased towards the Palestine side.

You hear a second of a rocket attack into Israel then 10 minutes about Israel killing babies. The BBC is so biased its sick and I'm sorry but watch the videos of the boat invasion, there were Israeli commandos being chucked overboard and battered left, right and centre.

Sorry if the above has already been said but its 6 of 1 and half a dozen of the other where this is concerned, you either belive the BBC or you don't.

 

[Ch3tan]

Thread has moved way on trem, ignore the mainstream media coverage, there are lots of links and videos posted, and statements that all indicate the Israeli's incited violence. The activists did not all fight, some where protecting injured soldiers. This is one time where it is not 6 of 1, the Israeli's held the activists and have in all likely hood destroyed a lot of video, they get to investigate the incident, so their is no impartiality at all.

 

[Trem]

Thread has moved way on trem, ignore the mainstream media coverage, there are lots of links and videos posted, and statements that all indicate the Israeli's incited violence. The activists did not all fight, some where protecting injured soldiers. This is one time where it is not 6 of 1, the Israeli's held the activists and have in all likely hood destroyed a lot of video, they get to investigate the incident, so their is no impartiality at all.

Sorry mate, I couldn't be arsed to plough through it all.

Anyway, I say, leave them to it, much like I would want them to leave us to it if it ever kicked off with Wales

 

[Scouse]

Under the race relations act then yes - it is a race.

More practically you cant be jewish unless your mother was so I guess it pretty much is a distinct racial group.

That's just the rule of a sky-fairy worshipper tho. A rams-horn toting one, but still a sky-fairy worshipper.

It's like the catholic rule that sex before marriage is bad - total bollocks


Anyway, tis bedtime, and the missus has just made me a cuppa as I've returned from my curry action. Will post tomorrow!

 

[SilverHood]

I cannot comment from work and US tz means I reply when everyone else is asleep. I've answered all scouses points, but only the sensationalist one liners get quoted when he replies. He never answers my posts, or throddy's, or anyone else who makes the point that Hamas is a terrorist organisation dedicated to the destruction of Israel. So I am done too. Throddy nailed it on the head with the old Woman post.

As for misrepresenting what I said, I mean exactly what I said and just that. If I meant anything else, I would have said so. I don't particularly agree with the USA being in Afghanistan or Iraq. But I will defend their right to be there.

I'd recommend everyone read this article though:

Bret Stephens: Israel and Its Liberal 'Friends' - WSJ.com

If you get blocked for not being a subscriber, then just put the headline into google and click the relevant link for the full article.

 

[Scouse]

He never answers my posts, or throddy's, or anyone else who makes the point that Hamas is a terrorist organisation dedicated to the destruction of Israel.

I've acknowledged this. Many times. You guys just haven't seen it. Just one more time, so it's explicit: I agree.

However, I was making the point (again) that just because Hamas are bad - does that justify Israeli state-sponsored murder?

As for misrepresenting what I said, I mean exactly what I said and just that. If I meant anything else, I would have said so.

There you go Ch3t. Seems I was right and it wasn't arrogance or me putting words in other peoples mouths



Here's my last post - since everyone else is having one:

The world's a bad place. We are "beset on all sides by the tyrrany of evil men". Hamas isn't a great organisation. Turkey isn't a great nation. Neither is Britain for that matter. They've all done bad things in the past.

However, Israel, right now, is the worst of the lot. It's surrounded a people and is coming as close to ethnic cleansing as it is possible to be without actually gassing the lot. Which they would love to do.

If Godwins law states that the longer this thread goes on the closer the probability a comparison with Hitler or the Nazi's gets to 1 then in this case Godwins law is a misnomer. The comparison with the Nazis is apt.

The Gaza strip is a prison camp. Surrounded by walls with little hope of escape, inadequate food, frequent random killings and all against a people that aren't given due process. Against children who've never done anything wrong.

The Israeli people need to do something with their out-of-control parliament. It's to the wests great shame that we don't put more pressure on them to do so.

 

[Helme]

You hear a second of a rocket attack into Israel then 10 minutes about Israel killing babies. The BBC is so biased its sick and I'm sorry but watch the videos of the boat invasion, there were Israeli commandos being chucked overboard and battered left, right and centre.

This probably has more to do with how the rockets kill people less than 1% of the time or wound less than 15% while murdered babies are actually well.. dead.

This is pretty much why palestinians seems to get more coverage.

 

[throdgrain]

To avert the second, all you have to do is stop the first.

 

[Helme]

To avert the first all you have to do is stop the second.

 

[Scouse]

To avert the second, all you have to do is stop the first.

You can't stop the first. And the first doesn't justify the second.

 

[Embattle]

So was that your last post...bet it isn't

 

[Scouse]

So was that your last post...bet it isn't

Yeah. I failed. Just like everyone else with their "last" post....

 

[mr.Blacky]

You can't stop the first. And the first doesn't justify the second.

So what is your sollution? Wait till the first does justify second?
That will happen eventually, with or without a blockade, with the blockade it will be later.. I think.

 

[DaGaffer]

This probably has more to do with how the rockets kill people less than 1% of the time or wound less than 15% while murdered babies are actually well.. dead.

So the Hamas defence is "don't blow us up, we're incompetent"? I can get board with the idea that the Israeli response is disproportionate, but the whole "only 1% of Hamas rockets kill anyone so its soooo unfair" argument is ultimately a crock of shit.

 

[Wij]

So the Hamas defence is "don't blow us up, we're incompetent"? I can get board with the idea that the Israeli response is disproportionate, but the whole "only 1% of Hamas rockets kill anyone so its soooo unfair" argument is ultimately a crock of shit.

The other 99% were only intended to tickle !