Question State Terrorism?

[Scouse]

What will happen is this lot will completely ignore it and start bleating on about something else

Because it's a bullshit internal enquiry, not an independent one:

Israel has set up an internal inquiry into its deadly raid last month on a convoy of Gaza-bound aid ships.

[Israel] has now agreed to include two foreign observers in its own inquiry.

"Bull" and "shit".

And not only bullshit, such obvious bullshit that to have ignored this points even more strongly to your arguments being self-serving self-justifying crapola

 

[DaGaffer]

What. A "land for the Jews"?

By definition that IS "biblical mumbo jumbo".

If we're ignoring what you told us to ignore - Israel is the only state outside the Vatican that's founded on a religion - and that was done last century by us.

So yes. Israel is a bullshit state. Not that I care about that.

No it wasn't. Zionism was primarily a political movement. Israel is a secular state. Now you can make all kinds of arguments about the so-called ethnicity of the Jews, but they are no kind of theocracy.

Or work towards a two-state solution. Or (short term) stop murdering children? Or paint their whole country blood-red and call it Hell


Three choices! Pfft

Last time I looked the Israelis weren't occupying Gaza or the West Bank. A de facto two-state solution is in place and look how quickly it turned to ratshit? A proper two-state solution isn't viable. If the Arab world really wanted a two-state solution, the answer is easy; Syria and Jordan both give up a parcel of land each and create a new Palestinian state bolted on the West bank. Job done (if the whole of Poland could move 200 miles west after WWII I see no problem with moving the Palestinians 100 miles north). Lebanon could even give them a corridor to the sea. If you want to talk choices, talk to the arabs, they're the ones with the room to manouever.

And the "stop killing children" line was just lame Scouse. Given the current options, nothing is going to stop that.

 

[Chilly]

Last time I looked the Israelis weren't occupying Gaza or the West Bank. A de facto two-state solution is in place and look how quickly it turned to ratshit? A proper two-state solution isn't viable.

It's working far better in west bank than in gaza. West bank are actually doing relatively well (all things considered).

 

[Scouse]

No it wasn't

The Balfour Declaration: A formal statement of British Government Policy:

"His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavors to facilitate the achievement of this object...

And what defines the "Jewish people" is their religion...

 

[DaGaffer]

And what defines the "Jewish people" is their religion...

While their religion is intrinsic to their cultural identity, Zionism was a nationalist movement, not a religious one. Jews are not just defined by their religion, any more than Arabs are.

 

[tierk]

It is simple.

Either, it is perfectly fine to attack unarmed civilians on a humanitarian mission, or it is not.

For any normal human being i think it is fairly clear which is the right response.

 

[Scouse]

Gaff - I disagree about Jews being defined by their religion. Because of a "culture of inbreeding" (if you will) there's a tiny number of genetic similarities but they're not a distinct race at all.

The common factor is religious, not genetic.

Whilst I'm at it - here's a bit more on this dodgy "inquest" that throddy and Ctuchik seem to put so much store by:

The two foreign experts will take part in the hearings and subsequent discussions, but will not vote on the conclusions of the inquiry

Vindications galore going on around here methinks


As for you (back to Gaff) not being able to see that location is a fundamental blockade to any solution (however many "states" it has in it): Jerusalem.

Its not like we've been fighting bazillions of wars over the ratshit piece of ground that the three "main" religions call the "holy land" for fekking hundreds of years is it?



Maybe we should change the name of this thread from the "state terrorism" thread to a "lets have a general moan about the Middle East" thread eh?

 

[Pfy]

It is simple.

Either, it is perfectly fine to attack unarmed civilians on a humanitarian mission, or it is not.

For any normal human being i think it is fairly clear which is the right response.

Hippy.

 

[Scouse]

Hippy.

Quality post.

No really. Quality. Added to the thread in innumerable ways.

 

[soze]

If you accept the journalists story (Boat stopped then headed in the opposite direction) then the action is unacceptable and should be punished.

One thing about the guys story he kept bitching that the British government did nothing. He also said he was not allowed a phone call. So how did he expect them to know and do something?

While Israel has a right to defend itself bombing civilians is not on. Although you would say the same about our troops who track mortar fire and call artillery strikes. They have no way of knowing there are no women or children in the location. But giving the situation in Gazza maybe rewards to the population for providing evidence that leads to the arrest of those responsible for the rocket attacks?

 

[DaGaffer]

Gaff - I disagree about Jews being defined by their religion. Because of a "culture of inbreeding" (if you will) there's a tiny number of genetic similarities but they're not a distinct race at all.

The common factor is religious, not genetic.

I never said anything about a genetic factor; I said Zionism was a nationalist movement, which it was, just like all the arab nationalist movements that sprang up around the death throes of the Ottoman empire and the end of British and French rule. They have a distinct culture and their religion is part of that, but only part of it.

As for you (back to Gaff) not being able to see that location is a fundamental blockade to any solution (however many "states" it has in it): Jerusalem.

Its not like we've been fighting bazillions of wars over the ratshit piece of ground that the three "main" religions call the "holy land" for fekking hundreds of years is it?

The Jerusalem problem is a whole other kettle of fish but Isrealis aren't the problem and neither are the arabs; look to Christian fundamentalists. But my solution would still give arabs access to Jerusalem anyway because it includes the West Bank as Palestinian land.

 

[Scouse]

On this, then:

They have a distinct culture and their religion is part of that, but only part of it.

I'd say it was the fundamental anchor.

But regardless of that - having a "distinct culture" is no impediment to progress around the planet - so I don't see why it should be the foundation for a (reasonably) new country.

 

[throdgrain]

What are you all on about. They all have big noses and talk kosher!!!

 

[DaGaffer]

On this, then:



I'd say it was the fundamental anchor.

But regardless of that - having a "distinct culture" is no impediment to progress around the planet - so I don't see why it should be the foundation for a (reasonably) new country.

So where are you going with that statement? Because that looks suspiciously like "denying Israel's right to exist".

 

[throdgrain]

I think he's anti-semite Gaff, probably buys his clothes from Hugo Boss

 

[Scouse]

So where are you going with that statement? Because that looks suspiciously like "denying Israel's right to exist".

I've already stated in this thread that I've no desire to see Israel removed from the planet or "deny it's right to exist".

What I am saying is that a country that was formed specifically for people of a single religion (or culture if you like) is a fucking stupid idea.

So, whilst I'd have been completely against its formation because the idea of founding a country for people of a certain religion is obviously one of the most retarded things ever done, now that we've got it I think we have to deal with the problems it creates in a realistic manner. And no, that doesn't mean removing Israel as an entity.


And throddy - fuck off trolling.

Just because you would gas muslims wherever they are doesn't mean that everyone in the world is as intolerant as you.

 

[throdgrain]

and throddy - fuck off trolling.

Just because you would gas muslims wherever they are doesn't mean that everyone in the world is as intolerant as you.

ummmm!!!!

 

[DaGaffer]

I've already stated in this thread that I've no desire to see Israel removed from the planet or "deny it's right to exist".

What I am saying is that a country that was formed specifically for people of a single religion (or culture if you like) is a fucking stupid idea.

So, whilst I'd have been completely against its formation because the idea of founding a country for people of a certain religion is obviously one of the most retarded things ever done, now that we've got it I think we have to deal with the problems it creates in a realistic manner. And no, that doesn't mean removing Israel as an entity.


And throddy - fuck off trolling.

Just because you would gas muslims wherever they are doesn't mean that everyone in the world is as intolerant as you.

And yet all the countries surrounding them (except Lebanon) are essentially monocultures that give particular short-shrift to religious tolerance, so how exactly could Israel exist as an arab-dominated state? And for the record, Israel has freedom of religion enshrined in law, and over 20% of the Isreali citizen population are arabs, and there is even conscription into the IDF for certain arab groups (the Druze were the only arab group that took up the option).

I know this sounds like me sitting in constant defence of the Israelis, but I'm just playing Devil's Advocate here (my personal experience of Israelis is 90% bad); Israel has limited choices if it wishes to continue to exist, and pretty much all of them are bad for someone. What constantly annoys me is that the arab world is where solutions can be found, but is never challenged on that.

 

[Scouse]

I don't particularly disagree with anything you say there DaGaffer.


And throddy, yep. I'm not anti-semitic. If you're having a problem distinguishing between an intellectual argument and a personal predjudice then that's not my fault...

 

[Scouse]

Bloody Sunday enquiry out today. Fucking well late. And late for the reason we all know, deep down: that British troops murdered unarmed protestors in Northern Ireland without provocation.

"Bloody Sunday Dead all innocent"

Yet the newspaper and media reporting at the time went along the lines in the image at the bottom of the post.

Hell, there's even teaching material in the education system that's designed to "muddy the waters" in pupils minds - and we all know that muddy-ing the waters is an extremely effective way of concealing the truth.


The exact same thing is happening right now with reporting on Israels murderous attack on unarmed civilians in international waters.

 

[Chilly]

Bloody Sunday enquiry out today. Fucking well late. And late for the reason we all know, deep down: that British troops murdered unarmed protestors in Northern Ireland without provocation.

"Bloody Sunday Dead all innocent"

Yet the newspaper and media reporting at the time went along the lines in the image at the bottom of the post.

Hell, there's even teaching material in the education system that's designed to "muddy the waters" in pupils minds - and we all know that muddy-ing the waters is an extremely effective way of concealing the truth.


The exact same thing is happening right now with reporting on Israels murderous attack on unarmed civilians in international waters.

It's fine though. The truth will come out in 15 years.

 

[DaGaffer]

Bloody Sunday enquiry out today. Fucking well late. And late for the reason we all know, deep down: that British troops murdered unarmed protestors in Northern Ireland without provocation.

What do you mean "deep down"? Hasn't everyone been fully aware of this for decades? (I remember John Major of all people acknowledging it back in the early nineties). This was a £200Million eek6 exercise that was only ever going to have one conclusion.

Not that anyone will be prosecuted; the peace process declared immunity for prosecution for both sides, and does anyone really want to open that can of worms?

 

[Embattle]

It is a stunning amount of money.

 

[Scouse]

What do you mean "deep down"? Hasn't everyone been fully aware of this for decades?

Well, I figured that "deep down" some of the members of this board would know that Israel murdered unarmed civilians and that it was wrong - so I figured I'd phrase the bloody sunday murders in the same light in case anyone here was a victim of government propaganda.

Lets face it. There'll be people about that still think Britain did nothing wrong...

It is a stunning amount of money.

Yep. There'll be a load of very rich lawyers off the back of it...

 

[ECA]

Ehud Barak was forced to cancel a trip to france after threats of being detained by french police ^^

 

[Scouse]

Lol. Cool. Link if you've got it please

 

[rynnor]

I dont think Israelis will come to the UK anymore either after the threat of warrants being issued over warcrimes - they arent completely immune to the consequences of their actions.

 

[Chilly]

I dont think Israelis will come to the UK anymore either after the threat of warrants being issued over warcrimes - they arent completely immune to the consequences of their actions.

Theres plenty of israelis here and plenty of people here with family and friends in israel - that's not going to change. With a relatively strong jewish community in the uk, it's just not going to happen.

 

[ECA]

Theres plenty of israelis here and plenty of people here with family and friends in israel - that's not going to change. With a relatively strong jewish community in the uk, it's just not going to happen.

The Israeli foreign minister cancelled a visit last year due to a similar threat.

Tzipi Livni cancelled visit: no way to treat an ally - Telegraph

 

[Chilly]

The Israeli foreign minister cancelled a visit last year due to a similar threat.

Tzipi Livni cancelled visit: no way to treat an ally - Telegraph

yeah, the top brass might. but your average israeli doesnt give a fuck. just like I dont give a fuck about travelling to the states, even tho I work for an online gambling firm.