Question State Terrorism?

[Scouse]

They're giving a soldier a medal for this?

Link if you've got it pretty please.

Well. If true it would back up my idea that it was deliberate rather than a "operation gone wrong" (as have many other things about this).


Israel is sending a signal - "fuck with us and we'll kill you".

Nice

 

[noblok]

link

 

[Helme]

It's enough proof in my opinion that Israeli should NOT AT ALL head the investigation into what happened. They've already decided the outcome and anything they'd come up with wouldn't have a shred of integrity.

 

[Ch3tan]

BBC News - US reporter Helen Thomas quits over Israel comments

 

[Scouse]

BBC News - US reporter Helen Thomas quits over Israel comments

Old enough to know the truth, maybe?

 

[Ch3tan]

She came over as very bitter, her view is as unworkable and pointless as Israel trying to slowly eliminate the gaza strip.

 

[JingleBells]

YouTube - Jewish British MP blasts Israel

Edit: Sadly this isn't related to the current events, it's from Jan 09 but it's still relevant IMO

 

[Scouse]

She came over as very bitter, her view is as unworkable and pointless as Israel trying to slowly eliminate the gaza strip.

I just thought she came over as a straight-talking old-person who'd like the world to be different than it is.

I'm sure she's pretty aware that, like it or not, the state of Israel is here to stay. She probably feels that it's creation was a huge mistake though.

Of course, that's just opinion...



Edit: I'd like throddy, xane or silverhood to comment on what they think of the above video. I'd say it's directly related to current events.

 

[Raven]

YouTube - Jewish British MP blasts Israel

Edit: Sadly this isn't related to the current events, it's from Jan 09 but it's still relevant IMO

/thread

 

[SilverHood]

Yes it does. It's built a wall around it and blockades all sea-based action.

It's completely cut off. Deny it all you like tho.

Egypt has opened the border since the killings too. There've been calls to cut ties with Israel because of it.




Why? Because Egypt's been murdering people indiscriminately and invading other countries in defiance of over a hundred UN resolutions? Oh, wait a minute...




Are any of you "deniers" going to answer this point - which has been made many times in this thread - or are you just going to keep ignoring it.




Come on SilverHood. Do two wrongs make a right? Does the fact that bad shit happens elsewhere in the world make it OK for Israel to collectively punish 1.5 million prisoners - including children?

If you're going to quote me block for block, at least quote the entire thing. I write arguments based first on my direct response to comments, then retort, then conclusion. Everything I wrote is taken out of context if you ignore the last part. That last point answered your question. I do not deny anything except that Israel is in the wrong.

I will always maintain that a nation has a right to defend its sovereignty. For the USA, this means by every means necessary. State sanctioned assassination, seizure, torture, kidnapping, interception. The USA does this *every* day. Turkey does this almost every day. Russia does this every day. China does this every day. Israel does not do this every day. But often enough to get in the news. Britain would do the same if it's security was threatened. So would any country.

It is unfortunate that there are civilians involved, especially children. But the only way the world can ever force Israel to do anything is if the Palestinians give up armed resistance. If you ignore this basic fact, then you are the denier.

And I will agree that after reading that blog, the Israeli response was most likely very extreme. However, I also have several videos of so called peace activists attacking Israeli soldiers. We also have the organisers of flotilla stating that the goal of the flotilla was not to reach Gaza, but to get publicity regarding the blockade. There' also quotes that "we're going to be ready for the soldiers". Careful what they wish for. Gaza is a war zone. When you set sail for a warzone, be prepared for war.

Here's some pictures from the Mavi Marmara. It's from a Turkish newspaper. I can't read what is says, but the pictures, combined with the video evidence shows that not every person on those ships had peaceful intentions:
(Notice the knife in the first picture).

Ýsrail'in sildiði Fotoðraflar / 1 - Hürriyet



I am going to quote a historian called Victor Davis Hanson.

It is not anti-Semitic to discuss divided cities, occupations, the use of force, blockades, refugees, etc. It is, when all these topics mysteriously appear only in reference to Israel so as to suggest it is somehow singular in its transgressions. I somehow know who Rachel Corrie is, but not any of the names of tens of thousands of Kurds in Turkey, or Chechens in Grozny, or Tibetans in China, or Egyptians in Cairo. Why? I know the rough square mileage of “occupied” Palestine, but not the acreage of Turkish-controlled Cyprus.

And end by saying this: Israel is a democracy. What happens if Israel stop the blockade and allow anyone to go wherever? Can you honestly say that you believe that Hamas will not re-arm for a massive insurgency. That we'll see bombings every week. That the streets will run red with blood.

It's unlikely to happen, but what happens to the Israeli government then? They will be seen as weak. They will get voted out of office. More hardliners will get in. Those guys are just as bad as the Muslim religious nutters. Except they've got numerical and technological advantage. I would not put it past them to order the genocide of every Palestinian in Gaza. That would both ironic and tragic. But at least the blockade is over? The way to hell is paved is paved with good intentions.

 

[Helme]

I'm getting fairly pissed off at the fact that no newspaper seems to be showing the picture where they are giving medical aid to the soldiers, even after they had shot 2 activists.

Obviously people are going to get hurt when they are being disarmed, especially so when they are holding weapons with live-ammunition in their hands but remember at this point when these pictures were taken - 2 activists were dead, and alot worse could have happened to these soldiers(including getting shot by their own weapons) but instead they got medical attention.

--
This is the image btw.

--

Also it seems final, Israel will head the investiation, a sad day for justice anywhere - the outcome would probably be the same with an international one since most of the evidence against Israel is already destroyed and Israel would refuse access to the soldiers who were involved, but you would think international diplomats, noble price winners and holocaust survivors would add some credibility to all this.

--

I just noticed the last part of your message SilverHood, you are fully aware of the last time the borders were open Hamas stopped all it's missiles for 5 months until Israel - not Hamas, decided to roll in with tanks and bulldozers. If Israel lifts the blockade and stops retaliating they will finally have the moral high ground and Hamas will loose support fighting an enemy that doesn't strike back, all they're doing now is making desperate people more desperate.

 

[Scouse]

I will always maintain that a nation has a right to defend its sovereignty. For the USA, this means by every means necessary. State sanctioned assassination, seizure, torture, kidnapping, interception. The USA does this *every* day

This is why I (and almost everyone I've ever met in every country I've ever been to) hate the USA.

Torture alone is enough to hate any country - it's illegal (not just against the Geneva convention) and proven to be ineffective - and, to my mind, justifies any "terrorist" act that people want to dream up.

If you think it's OK for states to act in this way then fine, you've pinned your colours to the mast. But we'll never agree.

States that do this deserve to die. They have no place in the modern world.

 

[throdgrain]

Are you on drugs or something Scouse??

 

[Scouse]

Are you on drugs or something Scouse??

What? Because I don't believe in torture and feel very angry when people defend it?

I'm guessing you think it's OK to torture people eh throddy? Something that's "good" and to be defended?


Edit: But yep. Perhaps I was a bit strong in my condemnation. Emotional reaction 'n all that. But still. torture is OK eh?

Dunno why this has come up twice. All I did was edit. /calls mod.

BTW Throddy. Anything to say about the vid?

 

[throdgrain]

No mate. Because you have been ranting on and on for bloody pages and pages, ignoring any facts or opinions that dont suit your line of thinking. Christ I dont even know why I'm typing this, you wont read it

Like I said pages and pages ago, the Palestinians have a bad time some of the time, but they are also 100% focussed on the destruction of Israel. What do you want Israel to do about it? If they relaxed all restrictions on Palestine do you think those nutters would just say oh ok then forgive and forget? No, they would attack Israel all the more.

And whats this about everyone in the world hates the USA?? Where did you get that from??

Look, dont bother replying. It wont make any sense. Just go take a chill pill or something.

 

[Scouse]

No mate. Because you have been ranting on and on for bloody pages and pages, ignoring any facts or opinions that dont suit your line of thinking. Christ I dont even know why I'm typing this, you wont read it

I read everything written m8. I'm not "ranting" (well, not before the "USA tortures people all the time but that's OK" post). And it's not just me whos been typing for "bloody pages".

Perhaps you're writing because you've got a point you want to get across - a point you're too blinkered to see has already been taken, acknowledged and rebuffed.

Like I said pages and pages ago, the Palestinians have a bad time some of the time, but they are also 100% focussed on the destruction of Israel. What do you want Israel to do about it? If they relaxed all restrictions on Palestine do you think those nutters would just say oh ok then forgive and forget? No, they would attack Israel all the more.

To answer you directly - what I want Israel to "do about it" is to stop the blockade. It's not working, it's making their situation worse. Even fetus-boy William Hague said in Parliament just two days ago that the blockade of Gaza is playing directly into the hands of Hamas. (Because of the blockade Hamas is getting to tax everything coming into the strip. It's also creating ready-made recruits for Hamas - if the killing of thousands by Israel wasn't enough to do that anyway).

If Israel wants to help, not hurt, itself then the blockade has to stop.

Now, to ask you directly (again) - like I said "pages and pages ago" - does the fact that Hamas (not all the palestinians) have bad ideals make the collective punishment of 1.5 million prisoners OK?

This question has been repeated over and over. Only Silverhood (to his credit) has had the decency to answer and he answered "yes, whatever Israel does is OK" (to his disgrace).

What you have done is fail to answer any of the direct questions - so it's a bit (actually, very) hypocritical of you to accuse me of ignoring facts.

Far from it - I have acknowledged the terrible acts of other countries several times (go back and read to check if you like).

And whats this about everyone in the world hates the USA?? Where did you get that from??

Two things. One - I said it was an emotional outburst. Two - in my experience most people I've come across dislike the United States.

The wars in Iraq, their ignorance, their arrogance, "extraordinary rendition" yadda yadda yadda.


So, come on Throddy. Comment on the video. Got anything to say about the "facts" he talks about? Or are you going to just ignore them?

 

[throdgrain]

It just doesnt end does it If the Israelis give an inch, they will just get attacked again.

 

[Scouse]

I notice you didn't answer any of the direct questions

It just doesnt end does it If the Israelis give an inch, they will just get attacked again.

They're still being attacked - the blockade hasn't stopped it.

Also - they're going to get attacked whatever they do. They've killed enough palestinians that Hamas can't control it. There's enough individuals who've lost enough family members who will always want to kill 'em.

Given that they're going to get attacked anyway, where's the sense in prolonging the suffering of those palestinians who are totally innocent?

 

[rynnor]

It just doesnt end does it If the Israelis give an inch, they will just get attacked again.

It will end rather bloodily when the US support wanes over the next 10-15 years as the US itself declines.

That is unless Israel can begin to make some kind of peace with its neighbours regardless of how much they might want to remain apart.

The kind of actions like the flotilla outrage is directly against their longer term interests and eventually against their chances of survival.

 

[throdgrain]

I read everything written m8. I'm not "ranting" (well, not before the "USA tortures people all the time but that's OK" post). And it's not just me whos been typing for "bloody pages".

Perhaps you're writing because you've got a point you want to get across - a point you're too blinkered to see has already been taken, acknowledged and rebuffed.



To answer you directly - what I want Israel to "do about it" is to stop the blockade. It's not working, it's making their situation worse. Even fetus-boy William Hague said in Parliament just two days ago that the blockade of Gaza is playing directly into the hands of Hamas. (Because of the blockade Hamas is getting to tax everything coming into the strip. It's also creating ready-made recruits for Hamas - if the killing of thousands by Israel wasn't enough to do that anyway).

If Israel wants to help, not hurt, itself then the blockade has to stop.

Now, to ask you directly (again) - like I said "pages and pages ago" - does the fact that Hamas (not all the palestinians) have bad ideals make the collective punishment of 1.5 million prisoners OK?

This question has been repeated over and over. Only Silverhood (to his credit) has had the decency to answer and he answered "yes, whatever Israel does is OK" (to his disgrace).

What you have done is fail to answer any of the direct questions - so it's a bit (actually, very) hypocritical of you to accuse me of ignoring facts.

Far from it - I have acknowledged the terrible acts of other countries several times (go back and read to check if you like).




Two things. One - I said it was an emotional outburst. Two - in my experience most people I've come across dislike the United States.

The wars in Iraq, their ignorance, their arrogance, "extraordinary rendition" yadda yadda yadda.


So, come on Throddy. Comment on the video. Got anything to say about the "facts" he talks about? Or are you going to just ignore them?

Ther is no question here??

You and your outraged chums here are avoiding the facts. If Israel weakens it's stance, it will be attacked by Hamas. And don't think that just means a few people, this is religion, Hamas can tell most of the population what to do, and they will do it.

If Israel wants to help, not hurt, itself then the blockade has to stop.

Help who? They wont be helping themselves by doing that I shouldnt think.

But. For the record, you are right about one thing. I don't really give a fuck what the Israelis do to defend themselves, you're correct about that.

 

[throdgrain]

Israel is sending a signal - "fuck with us and we'll kill you".

I just noticed this, in this huge thread.

I dont blame them. Good on 'em.

(I know you'll just love me for that )

 

[Scouse]

Ther is no question here??

Now, to ask you directly (again) - like I said "pages and pages ago" - does the fact that Hamas (not all the palestinians) have bad ideals make the collective punishment of 1.5 million prisoners OK?

Y'see. Who's not reading...

 

[Scouse]

For the record, you are right about one thing. I don't really give a fuck what the Israelis do to defend themselves, you're correct about that.

Oooh! At last

So, all is fair in love and war eh?

 

[Scouse]

I dont blame them. Good on 'em.

Harsh, IMHO. I've never said "good for the palestinians" or "go Hamas" or "Israeli deaths are a good thing". Because it's wrong.

But if you think it's fair for Israel to kill whoever they like, indescriminately...

 

[Ch3tan]

~Scouse, Silverhood did not say whatever they do is ok, he pointed out that nations do whatever they feel necessary to defend themselves. He did not say that is okay, throughout this thread you have consistently ignored or mis-represented what people have said. You are turning into Toht.

Throd; you are making a huge assumption about Hamas, remember they actually had the strip under control and were happy with the ceasefire, it was Isreal that re-started things.

 

[throdgrain]

lol Ch3t, I was trying to say that but he wont listen. He's probably stomping round the room even now all hot under the collar

The destruction of Israel is central to Hamas's policy mate, I dont know how you can think I'm making assumptions about that. Shoot them all I say, just to make sure

 

[throdgrain]

Now, to ask you directly (again) - like I said "pages and pages ago" - does the fact that Hamas (not all the palestinians) have bad ideals make the collective punishment of 1.5 million prisoners OK?

Sincere apologies, I did miss this bit.

To answer, yes it does. Hamas represent those people, they are religeous extremists just the same as thier people are. They want change, they should get rid of Hamas.

But they wont, because Hamas perfectly represent what they want, the destruction of Israel, and all the other looney Muslim shit that goes with it.

 

[Ch3tan]

Yes it is, but Hamas since assuming power have actually reduced attacks, and as already pointed out, they observed the ceasefire. So evidence suggests that another peacefire and a removal of the blockade would not lead to more violence from the Palestinians.

Isreal are actually hoping for a more hardline stance from Hamas IMO, and that is why they keep pushing. If Hamas revert to type, then Israel have an excuse to charge in full force.

I really don't understand your shoot them all view, what would you have a whole nation of people do when their homes have been taken and forced into a small corner of their own country? Just take it? The reason there are terrorists in Palestine is because of the actions of the Western world in setting up Israel in the first place.

Edit:// Your last post, hardliners exist on both sides, and the Israeli government is no more legitimate in their actions than Hamas. Infact, your post reads "I like Muslims less than Jews, so let them be the ones to die."

 

[throdgrain]

You probably hit the nail on the head Ch3t.

 

[Ch3tan]

Well that's a sad thing.