Question State Terrorism?

[rynnor]

Now, I've stated that the Beeb has been fined for pro-Israeli bias.

I had a search for that but it came up with loads about that anti-israeli bias case - do you have a link?

 

[Scouse]

I had a search for that but it came up with loads about that anti-israeli bias case - do you have a link?

Do I have to link everything? Wasn't showing that xane's outrageous daily fail article was essentially pro-israeli propaganda and that the case was brought by a pro-Israeli Jewish activist (and had a lot of media attention, not much of which says "Pro-Israeli Jewish Activist" anywhere in the content) enough?

I'm not pandering to calls of "link" from people who are ignoring everything else said in a thread. Find one yourself, it's out there

 

[xane]

I had a search for that but it came up with loads about that anti-israeli bias case - do you have a link?

I can't find one either.

 

[rynnor]

I'm not pandering to calls of "link" from people who are ignoring everything else said in a thread. Find one yourself, it's out there

Hey I'm not baiting you but I genuinely cant find it for the mass of recent articles about anti-israel bias that come up - was it about the coverage of their invasion a couple of years ago?

 

[xane]

I'm sorry that people here have labelled me some kind of apologist.

I only research the facts and the truth, from them I form an opinion, which I have not expressed on this thread. My experience is that if you don't research properly then you end up looking bloody silly when someone points out a gaping hole in your argument, believe me I've been there and done that plenty.

Information changes perspective, not only reporting lies, but not reporting other information, can lead to severe bias. For example, this thread centres around an "illegal" blockade put in place to prevent weaponry passing to militants, just as Saudi Arabia has done with Yemen and Turkey has done with Armenia (ironically the ones screaming about this incident). You may think that revealing this information is just a nasty subterfuge, but so is hiding it.

It may be unfortunate that facts get in the way of preconceived ideas about the thread subject, I'll apologize if your staunch views have been shattered by anything I've revealed, but it is the truth. If you can debunk what I've given then go ahead, don't resort to ad hominem attacks, against myself, or against the link source.

Condemning me just for linking to the Daily Mail is absurd, Scouse has linked to a story stating more or less the same thing, the basic facts stand, all I did was pick the first line in a Google search.

Al Jazeera is not the most unbiased reporter when it comes to Israel either, neither is Amnesty, however, if it helps then in future I'll link using sites that simply cannot be considered bias concerning the subject matter (like the AJ links above).

 

[ECA]

I don't think you're an apologist but you're definately pro-isfail abusing 1.5 million people.

 

[rynnor]

I dont actually think the BBC is particularly biased per se on Israel/Palastine - but I think ever since they moved to 24 hour coverage their editorial control has faded and the quality of their news coverage has dropped off a cliff.

Take the raid on the flotilla - it was the big story of the day so the 24 hour mob were desperate for pictures - however the only pictures of the raid were the edited ones from Israel and they couldnt get any eye-witnesses of the raid because they were all being detained in Israel.

So they constantly showed the Israeli footage and had some Israeli media spokespeople who spouted the Israeli sides defence - they attempted some balance but all they had were people who were no more informed about the incident than the reporters.

It was an effort doomed to failure - if they had a decent editor they would have realised this and given it less airtime and maybe just stuck to the facts but they suck

 

[Scouse]

Scouse has linked to a story stating more or less the same thing, the basic facts stand

Scouse linked to a story on a Jewish news network that showed obvious bias and therefore the basic facts in no way stand.

How can you state that the facts stand when the story, and the basis for it, has been blown clearly out of the water? < would like answer for this...


I don't think you're an apologist. I think you can't see the woods for the trees, that's all.

 

[Scouse]

Information changes perspective, not only reporting lies, but not reporting other information, can lead to severe bias. For example, this thread centres around an "illegal" blockade put in place to prevent weaponry passing to militants, just as Saudi Arabia has done with Yemen and Turkey has done with Armenia (ironically the ones screaming about this incident). You may think that revealing this information is just a nasty subterfuge, but so is hiding it.

And since you seem to be of the "other countries do nasty things, therefore that makes Israel perfectly OK to do whatever they like" brigade, I'll say this:

Neither of those examples involve completely cutting off a country from the entire world on all borders.

Does the fact that Turkey and Saudi Arabia have bad histories make what Israel is doing OK? I mean, the Jews were ethnically cleansed by Hitler, that makes whatever they do their captives in Gaza just peachy, right?



Edit: BTW - Turkey aren't the only ones "screaming" about this. I've just watched the commons debate on the subject and the amount of MP's from all parties who would like to see Israel dealt with using the (and I quote) "hob nailed boots" of sanctions and economic cut-off was quite astonishing...

 

[SilverHood]

And since you seem to be of the "other countries do nasty things, therefore that makes Israel perfectly OK to do whatever they like" brigade, I'll say this:

Neither of those examples involve completely cutting off a country from the entire world on all borders.

Does the fact that Turkey and Saudi Arabia have bad histories make what Israel is doing OK? I mean, the Jews were ethnically cleansed by Hitler, that makes whatever they do their captives in Gaza just peachy, right?



Edit: BTW - Turkey aren't the only ones "screaming" about this. I've just watched the commons debate on the subject and the amount of MP's from all parties who would like to see Israel dealt with using the (and I quote) "hob nailed boots" of sanctions and economic cut-off was quite astonishing...

Israel does not "completely" cut off Gaza. About 1500 tonnes (dont quote me on this, think it was Reuters) of supplies goes through the Israeli border checkpoints every day. Anyone that wants to bring supplies into Gaza is free to do so. The aid flottila was even told this. It just has to be inspected for banned materials first, and transported by land.

Lets not forget that Gaza also shares a border with Egypt and they maintain a similar policy as Israel. Egypt could open their borders at will too. Why don't they? And should any hob nailed boot sanctions be applied equally to both Egypt and Israel? While we're handing out sanctions, lets deal with Turkey and Yemen too? Make the world a better place in one swoop. It will never happen because of politics. Turkey is a US ally. Yemen has oil. Egypt has the Suez canal. So let's not kid ourselves.

So what can happen? Hamas can wake up and smell the sunshine. They recognise Israel's right to exist and embrace a non violent path to a Palestinian state. As long as they're fighting back, or are seen as to not condemning armed resistance, they legitimise Israel's armed response regardless of how effective that armed resistance is AND regardless of how disproportionate that Israeli use of force is.

You can call this State terrorism, collective punishment, whatever. It does not change the fact that it is an armed conflict until both parties agree to otherwise. The US, EU and GB can make Israel end the armed conflict on one side. They cannot make Hamas do so. It takes two parties to make peace. Half the middle eastern Arab countries don't even recognise Israel is a country. Is Hamas and the Arab world doing its bit?

 

[Scouse]

Israel does not "completely" cut off Gaza

Yes it does. It's built a wall around it and blockades all sea-based action.

It's completely cut off. Deny it all you like tho.

Egypt has opened the border since the killings too. There've been calls to cut ties with Israel because of it.

should any hob nailed boot sanctions be applied equally to both Egypt and Israel?

Why? Because Egypt's been murdering people indiscriminately and invading other countries in defiance of over a hundred UN resolutions? Oh, wait a minute...

While we're handing out sanctions, lets deal with Turkey and Yemen too? Make the world a better place in one swoop.

Are any of you "deniers" going to answer this point - which has been made many times in this thread - or are you just going to keep ignoring it.

Does the fact that Turkey and Saudi Arabia have bad histories make what Israel is doing OK?

Come on SilverHood. Do two wrongs make a right? Does the fact that bad shit happens elsewhere in the world make it OK for Israel to collectively punish 1.5 million prisoners - including children?

 

[ECA]

Israel does not "completely" cut off Gaza. About 1500 tonnes (dont quote me on this, think it was Reuters) of supplies goes through the Israeli border checkpoints every day.

1.5 million people being denied a right to live a decent life.

If the British government had done in Northern Island what Israel has done in Gaza.... I'm pretty sure there would have been a lot more violence and resistance than there has been in Gaza.

 

[Helme]

World Health Organization says that only an average of 170 of the 400 needed aid trucks per day is getting through, and no rebuilding has been possible since the blockade was initiated because all building material is prohibited. People there are literary living in tents in the rubble of what used to be their homes. Schools and hospitals obviously suffer aswell, or do you deny that the 48% of children under the age of 5 having anemia is a problem? or that 95% of the water is undrinkable? or that education is pretty much impossible when paper, notebooks and pens are banned?

The reality is that Israel doesn't want the only peace that could possibly work, a two-state one when it's much easier to just continue what they are doing - annexing land bit by bit with the world looking the other way giving the palestinians the only option of either fighting a war they cannot win, eventually being swallowed up and treated as 2nd rate citizens or leaving their home country.

And as I'm sure you're going to say that Israel wants peace but Hamas refuses, I'll just reply with what happened in 2008 - when Hamas had stopped all but 10 missiles in 5 months(non of them authorized by Hamas, even Israel said so) to then be shocked to see Israel roll over the border with tanks and bulldozers, killing 4 people. Hamas immediately tried to get a new cease-fire, Israel refused to even discuss one.

 

[Ctuchik]

Soooo, seems like Iran wants to play aswell...

Cant say we really needed that tbh :/

 

[Ctuchik]

Israel does not "completely" cut off Gaza. About 1500 tonnes (dont quote me on this, think it was Reuters) of supplies goes through the Israeli border checkpoints every day.

i will quote you on this.

those 1500 tonnes are what ISRAEL claims are going through. noone reliable have actually been allowed to confirm this.

but yes, Israel do actually allow aid in to gaza, but ONLY so much that the entire populace wont starve to death.

but people in gaza still die every day because of this.

hell, israel even claim that the stuff on the first ships they boarded are on the way to gaza, but again, noone reliable are allowed to confirm this.

i just hope to god that Israel wont try and stop Iran if they decide to actually send aid ships (with military escorts) or we will have a really ugly war on our hands.

 

[Scouse]

Soooo, seems like Iran wants to play aswell...

Cant say we really needed that tbh :/

Their religious leader called for it (apparently). Good move IMHO. Blockade's gotta end sometime....

 

[Ctuchik]

Their religious leader called for it (apparently). Good move IMHO. Blockade's gotta end sometime....

Yes it does, but not by Iran fgs, and absolutely not with the use of military force. Israel and Iran is already on the verge of war because Israel don't want Iran to develop nukes. (somehow Iran's leaders statement that Israel should be eradicated makes them nervous)

Basically Iran is just as much a rogue state as Israel is currently. Only difference is that Iran doesn't have a superpower in their pocket.

/edit: IF Iran go in with their military it might actually justify things for Israel, and THAT we don't need!

 

[Scouse]

You need to edit that, but yup, agreed (mostly)

 

[Ctuchik]

yeah i noticed

 

[Scouse]

Here's a very interesting account of the attack on the boat by a British national Al-Jazeera journalist who was on board

Very interesting account. Sheds a very different light on the subject.

 

[ECA]

Here's a very interesting account of the attack on the boat by a British national Al-Jazeera journalist who was on board

Very interesting account. Sheds a very different light on the subject.

Don't worry I'm sure xane will be here soon to explain this all away as completely reasonable.

 

[Chilly]

Pretty nasty account. Inclined to believe him tbh. Pretty shitty our consultate are fucking about being pussies.

 

[Scouse]

Just seen an interview on the Beeb with the Irish captain of the boat that got stopped just recently.

He said that he'd informed the Israeli's that their engines were off and that they were in international waters and not moving forward into Israeli controlled space.

Apparently that kept the Israelis at bay for half an hour whilst (presumably) they talked to their government - but then boarded anyway. He also mentioned that he was scared when they boarded 'cause the captain of the first boat had apparently been executed with a clean single shot to the head.

 

[Ch3tan]

Don't worry I'm sure xane will be here soon to explain this all away as completely reasonable.

You lot have actually been quite aggressive with anyone that dares to present a different view, having all sides of an argument is essential, stop flaming xane just for presenting some facts that don't agree with your view.

 

[Scouse]

stop flaming xane just for presenting some facts that don't agree with your view.

I didn't flame xane. I exposed his "facts" as propaganda from a Jewish pro-Israeli activist. No comment has been made about this.

I've repeatedly asked for answers to direct questions - which have been systematically ignored.

I've called people "deniers" on this subject because they are acting in such a fashion as to be in denial.

If that's flaming, then I'm guilty

 

[TdC]

the writer mentions a female Knesset member being present on board the ship. anyone know who that was?

edit: sorry he wrote parliament member, according to wikipedia it's not the same thing.

 

[dysfunction]

Just seen an interview on the Beeb with the Irish captain of the boat that got stopped just recently......

He also mentioned that he was scared when they boarded 'cause the captain of the first boat had apparently been executed with a clean single shot to the head.

I would be scared as well since they reportedly put a total of 30 bullets into 10 people mainly into their heads.

If you feel the need to shoot why aim at the head? Why not shoot them in the leg or something. You shoot enough people in the leg you soon control the crowd!

 

[Helme]

Hanin Zuabi, she's facing serious trouble at home. She's had several of her priviledges revoked and outright been called a traitor and terrorist supporter.

I'd also like to mention that the supposed self defense on Israeli side led to execution style shootings in the BACK OF THE HEAD. I don't know how you guys would fight with sticks, but I'd personally have my head turned towards what I was attacking.

 

[JingleBells]

I would be scared as well since they reportedly put a total of 30 bullets into 10 people mainly into their heads.

If you feel the need to shoot why aim at the head? Why not shoot them in the leg or something. You shoot enough people in the leg you soon control the crowd!

Because these were soldiers rather than crowd control police officers, I'd have thought soldiers are taught to shoot to kill

 

[Helme]

Considering the soldier who killed six is getting a medal I'd seriously doubt his noble intentions if that is the reward for killing civilians.

But maybe thats just my normal cynicism.