Question State Terrorism?

[Scouse]

So, the Beeb says "at least 9 people killed" but Al Jazeera say "at least 19 killed and 36 wounded".

What is clear is that the "attack" was in international waters. So what the fuck were the Israeli's doing attacking there in the first place?

Pinning my colours to the mast, I've long considered Israel to be a state emboldened by western support. It knows it's a lynchpin of western political aims and gets away with all sorts of shit that no other state would be allowed to.

For example, it's ignored more UN Resolutions than Saddam Hussain ever dreamed of, but knows it'll never get spanked for it. They'd have to lob a nuke somewhere against the US's say-so for that to happen...



Gah.. In the time it's taken to write this post the I can't find the quote from the beeb about 9 deaths, or the one where the beeb reports someone calling it "state terrorism" - now it says "murder committed by the state"

 

[ECA]

I fully agree and have been of this opinion for the last several years.

Israel, the home of a persecuted people have become the persecutors.

 

[Turamber]

It would appear too early to say just yet exactly what happened, the accounts are too divergent right now. What isn't in doubt is that Turkey and Israel have had a pretty good relationship for the most part down the years. Turkey might be a Muslim country but there is no love lost between they and the Arabs, generally speaking.

I've seen some of my Turkish Facebook friends posting pictures of Hitler and some Turkish text referring to him being a visionary or some such, which is very distasteful to say the least -- but clearly feelings are running very high.

 

[Scouse]

What's also clear, Turamber, is that Turkey has had a shit relationship with Israel for the last few years, what with the cheeky Israeli beggars invading people willy-nilly and building a big fuck off wall around Gaza that makes the old Berlin wall look like it was made of rice paper.

And Turkish Facebook is now serious social commentary? Do they say anything about Israel hitting an internationally crewed ship (with Brits on board) in international waters?

I guess public retards posting "I love Hitler" or somesuch shit is now equal to a state invading other countries and creating a new apartheid...

 

[Gray]

LiveLeak.com - Redefining the Media

Question still remains why the Israeli's boarded the boat in the first place, seems to go both ways on this.

 

[Turamber]

What's also clear..

...is that you need to take your medication. Overreaction much? I was simply passing on the reaction I'd seen and my own fairly reasonable thoughts, you had the knee jerk reaction neatly covered after all.

Turkey and Israel have had a pretty decent relationship for decades, the current pro-Islamic Turkish government has expressed its dislike for the Israeli/Gaza issue but not to the level that you are implying.

 

[SilverHood]

Since the ships were destined for an Israeli port, they were within their legal rights to inspect the ships, even in international waters.

Here's a vid of soldiers descending. As you can see, their arrival wasn't without issues.
Ekstra Bladet - Israel: Her får vores soldater tæsk

My guess is that if any other navy in the world was faced with that reception of a legal inspection, they'd have reacted far more violently.

Anyway, the way I see it, the "activists" knew they were going to get stopped. Why they went ahead is then beyond me. It's not like people have gone against Israel in the past and come out successful. Israel considers its security paramount, so it blockades the coast of Gaza. If you try to break the blockade, then you do so at your own risk.

 

[ECA]

A unannounced helicopter drop by special forces is a legal inspection?

Seems to me they could have just detained them all when they docked and done whatever had to be done at that point.

 

[ECA]

67. Merchant vessels flying the flag of neutral States may not be attacked unless they:

(a) are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture;
(b) engage in belligerent acts on behalf of the enemy;<
(c) act as auxiliaries to the enemy s armed forces;
(d) are incorporated into or assist the enemy s intelligence system;
(e) sail under convoy of enemy warships or military aircraft; or
(f) otherwise make an effective contribution to the enemy s military action, e.g., by carrying military materials, and it is not feasible for the attacking forces to first place passengers and crew in a place of safety. Unless circumstances do not permit, they are to be given a warning, so that they can re-route, off-load, or take other precautions.

Could you let me know about the prior warning they got before being commando dropped upon?


It falls under that law/treaty because it happened in international waters.

 

[ECA]

FYI I watched the liveleaks videos and it seems to me that:

The action taken by the IDF and the resistance they met justified the use of deadly force: Members of their team were being beaten and thrown what looked like overboard but was into lifeboats on the side.

That said - a commando drop onto an aid vessel is ridiculously outrageous and all blame lies with whatever dickwad thought this was a good idea.

 

[SilverHood]

It was announced days before that the ships would be intercepted. Anyway, I'm sure there would have been radio communication to the effect that they were being inspected.

I'm not sure who should have done it if it wasn't the special forces? The army?

----
That said - a commando drop onto an aid vessel is ridiculously outrageous and all blame lies with whatever dickwad thought this was a good idea.
----

Both the idea of breaking the blockade and landing troops with helicopters was a bad idea. But then, when it comes to Palestine, good ideas are hard to come by.

 

[ECA]

Intercepts and inspections are NOT a fucking helicopter drop by special forces.


Are you a member of the Israeli Special Blogging team btw?

Israel recruits 'army of bloggers' to combat anti-Zionist Web sites - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News

 

[Ctuchik]

Since the ships were destined for an Israeli port, they were within their legal rights to inspect the ships, even in international waters.

yes and no, had a right to inspect yes. board and and basically kidnap everyone (not to mention kill a bunch of them), not so much as a snowballs chance in hell.

and they were NOT destined for an Israeli port. Israel does not officially occupy the Gaza anymore. they just do everything they can to make the ppl living there as miserable as they can.

basically all they do is collectively punish the civilians there because they actually voted for the Hamas.

 

[DaGaffer]

Could you let me know about the prior warning they got before being commando dropped upon?


It falls under that law/treaty because it happened in international waters.

Actually we have no idea if they received prior warning or not. Other than that, the convoy was in breach of all the other points on the list except "e", if you regard the occupants of Gaza as belligerant (which is kind of the crux of the issue).

Once again I find myself thinking "a plague on both their houses". The Isreali action was massively ill-judged and disproportionate, but that's in relation to the boarding, NOT what happened afterwards; if a bunch of people are whacking the crap out of me with metal poles and I have Uzi, I'm going to use it. The "peace" protestors should have taken a leaf out of Gandhi's book; passive protest was the way to go here. No-one would have been killed and the Isrealis would have looked like total douches. Now there's a grey area.

 

[Roo Stercogburn]

The "peace" protestors should have taken a leaf out of Gandhi's book; passive protest was the way to go here.

This. Always, always, always this.

 

[dysfunction]

I disagree. If you have a stick and someone has a gun and you use the stick and they use the gun you look a lot more of a twat than if you had also picked up a stick....
They are always disproportionate with their responses. Someone throws a stone at them they drop a nuke....

Israel think they can do whatever they want these days since they were persecuted in the world war....Stop Gaza from being rebuilt, build land in occupied Palestine and attack ships in international waters...

It's about time they learned they cannot be the bullies any more.

I hope this incident is the catalyst to stop their domination.

 

[Vasconcelos]

Are we sure it is legal to do such thing in international waters???!!!

I mean even if the vessel was destined to an israel port?

There were 3 spaniard members of an NGO wounded, the goverment here has called the Israel ambassador to report and explain the event.

 

[throdgrain]

Whats a pity is that George Galloway wasnt on the ship sending some sanctimonious aid to god knows who, they could have done us a favour and shot him too.

 

[DaGaffer]

I disagree. If you have a stick and someone has a gun and you use the stick and they use the gun you look a lot more of a twat than if you had also picked up a stick....
They are always disproportionate with their responses. Someone throws a stone at them they drop a nuke....

Israel think they can do whatever they want these days since they were persecuted in the world war....Stop Gaza from being rebuilt, build land in occupied Palestine and attack ships in international waters...

It's about time they learned they cannot be the bullies any more.

I hope this incident is the catalyst to stop their domination.

Don't be ridiculous. Did you watch that LiveLeaks video? Ignoring the argument about whether they should have been there at all (they shouldn't), once on the boat, they're heavily outnumbered and under attack, and metal bars can kill you just as readily as a bullet.

You can argue all you like about Isreal's strategic use of disproportional force, and I'd agree with you pretty much completely, but in a tactical situation like this one, where you're surrounded and outnumbered, there's no such thing as disproportionate. In fact a boat is just about the worst place to be as there's nowhere to withdraw.

 

[throdgrain]

Agree with that too Gaff, if you go somewhere armed and threaten someone with a gun, then the mad idealistic looney attacks you with a iron bar, or a bat, or a shoe, or whatever, you either shoot, and get beat to death with aforementioned footwear.

 

[dysfunction]

Apparently (still yet to be proved) the people on the boat were attacked first and they were just defending themselves....

But even so if you are being boarded by an army force in international waters you have a right to defend yourselves.

If it's such a tactical nightmare to board a boat then why do it? Why not wait till you can stop it a different way? And why go in heavily armed on a civilian boat?? It makes no sense at all.

I'm sure they could have used rubber bullets or tazer guns or something else. Why go in with automatic weapons on a civilian boat?

If you are the Israeli army you should quite easily be able to take over a civilian boat using non lethal force no problem...

 

[Wij]

Isreal is stating it was self-defense which means the appropriate legal question is now whether it was proportionate from a self-defense point of view, not from an enforcement of a blockade point of view.

There's also the question of whether the blockade is itself legal. It's a tricky one. If the blockade is legal and the self-defense is proportionate then Isreal has broken no laws.

Thanks Radio 4

 

[DaGaffer]

Apparently (still yet to be proved) the people on the boat were attacked first and they were just defending themselves....

The liveleaks video tends to show otherwise; soldiers are being attacked as they are rappelling on to the boat. So unless people were being shot at from the helicopters (unlikely as the death toll would have been far higher), then I'll take the video over statements of people with a vested interest in lying.

But even so if you are being boarded by an army force in international waters you have a right to defend yourselves.

The right, but not the obligation. Passive was the way to go.

If it's such a tactical nightmare to board a boat then why do it? Why not wait till you can stop it a different way? And why go in heavily armed on a civilian boat?? It makes no sense at all.

I agree with you entirely. I don't understand why they simply didn't park a destroyer in front of them at the international limit and turn them around; except of course if their bluff had been called, what would they do? Sink the ship? As for going in armed onto the boat; well the Israelis are claiming it was ferrying weapons.

I'm sure they could have used rubber bullets or tazer guns or something else. Why go in with automatic weapons on a civilian boat?

Tazers and water, not a good mix. Baton rounds would be damn near as lethal as live ammo in a confined space. And as I said above, if the Israelis really did think there were weapons on board...

If you are the Israeli army you should quite easily be able to take over a civilian boat using non lethal force no problem...

I think there's no way we can say that without all the facts at hand. One thing I would say is that surely the Israeli navy are the ones trained to board ships.

 

[soze]

A unannounced helicopter drop by special forces is a legal inspection?

Seems to me they could have just detained them all when they docked and done whatever had to be done at that point.

Just a theory but if they though the ship had some sort of weapons or even a contagious disease they would have a reason for stopping it well away from the port.

Not defending them but when we board ships we use Marine Commandos who are also very ott for a lot of ships.

 

[Ch3tan]

I agree with scouse, but I can also see why this has not broken any laws. I don't believe the "peace" protesters, and as gaffer said they would have been better off to simply sit down and protest in peace.

 

[Embattle]

Isreal killing people surely not, the fact is they are idiots and always tend to just about stay on the right side of the line but this time they've gone over it just a tad. I suspect it'll be brushed under the carpet like most things Isreal has done in the past although the argument of self preservation won't work so well this time.

 

[Gumbo]

I'm not getting into the rights and wrongs of Israel vs Palestine, but I'll just point out to the sanctimonious twats arguing over the legality of boarding and inspecting ships, that the Royal Navy does it every day all over the world for a number of reasons. I've never noticed a load of OMFG!! comments over that. Weapons and rocket parts are constantly smuggled into Gaza. Often through tunnels, and often by sea.

I think Israel should be reigned in, but they do seem to get away with it. But...

If that was a genuine charitable voyage full of good intentions and baby food, then why didn't they simply allow the Israelis on board? They would check what they wanted to check and then allow the ship to continue. In the same way that most ships are allowed to. Instead they decided to make a massive publicity event of it, and try to take on a heavily armed boarding party with sticks and marbles. Then moan about the result.

They're as bad as each other.

 

[Scouse]

...is that you need to take your medication. Overreaction much? I was simply passing on the reaction I'd seen and my own fairly reasonable thoughts, you had the knee jerk reaction neatly covered after all.

Turkey and Israel have had a pretty decent relationship for decades, the current pro-Islamic Turkish government has expressed its dislike for the Israeli/Gaza issue but not to the level that you are implying.

Actually, I saw your name in the thread and correctly thought "here comes a standard Christian defence of Israel that won't actually comment on the actions of Israel or any of the issues I've brought up in the thread at all" - a preconception that was fully borne out by your post.

So, my reaction wasn't "knee jerk" it was premediated. I just needed to read your post to figure out who you were going to talk about instead of the Israelis

Turkey have cut off diplomatic ties since this, and for the last couple of years their relationship has been in the shitter...

 

[Scouse]

A unannounced helicopter drop by special forces is a legal inspection?

Yep. If I was an activist on a boat with loads of humanitarian aid destined for a people who I thought were the subject of a brutal repression and an illegal occupation and saw an armed military force from the oppressor dropping onto my boat one at a time, I'd take a chair/pipe/whatever and twat each of them as they landed.

Do you think Israel knew this before they launched the operation, eh?



It seems to me that Israel could have sent a couple of their warships to intercept, blocking the boats passage. Y'know. Like what happens in most blockades...

 

[xane]

... destined for a people who I thought were the subject of a brutal repression and an illegal occupation ...

I think they wanted to visit Gaza's Roots Club, or the Swimming Pool, all run by those poor brutally oppressed people.