News Koran burning?

[Krazeh]

And I don't think it helps his argument that science pwns all when he makes it in such an unscientific manner. It is too passionate to be dispassionate.

Do you have an example of where he's made such an argument in such an unscientific manner? I only ask because I found the stuff of his that i've read to be well written, rational and, where relevant, backed up with appropriate information/studies.

 

[nath]

And I don't think it helps his argument that science pwns all when he makes it in such an unscientific manner. It is too passionate to be dispassionate.

But, to put my original comments back into context, I still wouldn't burn his books. It is a backward step for mankind when any book is burned.

Do you have any specifics? What comments has he made in an unscientific manner?

As to your second comment - three thumbs up, too fucking right.

 

[SheepCow]

But, to put my original comments back into context, I still wouldn't burn his books. It is a backward step for mankind when any book is burned.

Why? It's just a lump of paper. People are too silly about everything

 

[old.Tohtori]

Why? It's just a lump of paper. People are too silly about everything

Mind giving me £300?

 

[Raven]

Money has a value, some stupid fairy tale doesn't. Though I don't think any book should be burnt...except maybe Tony Blair's autobiography, in a nice big pile with him tied to a stake in the middle.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Money has a value, some stupid fairy tale doesn't.

Mind giving me 10k copies of the new harry potter book?

 

[nath]

Money has a value, some stupid fairy tale doesn't.

Sorry mate but that's rubbish. Money has value because you, and more importantly people you're purchasing things from, put value on it.

The Koran has a value to people who put value on it. It's the same thing, you just happen to not give a shit for the Koran.

Nor do I, to be fair - but as you said, book burning for the lose.

 

[Ch3tan]

Why? It's just a lump of paper. People are too silly about everything

Has it been that long since Nazi Germany that we don't care about book burning now?

 

[Moriath]

BBC News - US pastor Terry Jones cancels Koran burning

chicken shit

 

[nath]

BBC News - US pastor Terry Jones cancels Koran burning

chicken shit

Takes more balls to back down than to plough on regardless of reasonable criticism of the plans.

 

[Ctuchik]

surprisingly pleased tbh.

i honestly thought his pride would get in the way..

Takes more balls to back down than to plough on regardless of reasonable criticism of the plans.

word.

 

[Scouse]

His manner is completely OTT. Anyone who thinks religion has never done anything good or contributed to the development of mankind is so utterly stupid it would defy belief. It does, however, sell books.

I've never read a Richard Dawkins book so I can't comment on that. I would concede that organised religion has definitely produced some good outcomes and that religious people in general are more willing to go that extra mile to help people, regardless of their circumstance.

However, I'd say that anyone who thinks that religion's defining feature is anything other than the brutal repression of mankind is utterly myopic and probably the unfortunate victim of said repression.


Anyway, back to the Koran:

It is a backward step for mankind when any book is burned.

three thumbs up, too fucking right.

In this instance I disagree.

IMHO - book-burning is symbolic of the destruction and the repression of ideas. In much the same way that the catholic church put Gallileo away for his ideas because they seriously challenged catholic dogma (they'd have burned him if he was made of paper, and took to that practice with people shortly afterwards anyway) - book burning is about a symbolic denialism.

The nazi's, as we all know, used it as a way of "reclaiming" pure German culture - i.e. repressing alternate ideas.


This daft christian fucker, on the other hand, is burning the Koran not out of a wish to pretend that it didn't exist. He's burning it as a "fuck you" against Islamic repression.

He's hardly trying to wipe the Koran out of our cultural memory - in his mind he's trying to take a stand against repression.


And it's a very real repression.

The inability to speak out against religion is fundamental to maintaining the "integrity" of that religion. Christianity is collapsing in the west because of the gains we've made in freedom of speech. We're free to challenge its ideas (nowadays) without threat of censure.

(It's not been like that for long - blasphemy laws have only recently been repealed - remember the hoo-ha that Life of Brian caused?)

Islam, on the other hand, is free to kill, maim, brutalise women and threaten anyone who speaks out against it, takes the piss out of it. We've all seen the evidence - women having to cover up, killings in families, fatwah's, threats of violence against danish cartoonists...

Now, don't get all uppity with the "that's not the 'real' Islam" or "not all muslims are like that" shit. It is the 'real' Islam - it's all the same book - it's not like there's an "extreme koran" for the fundamentalists, any more than there's an "extreme bible" for the american idiots. And some muslims are 'like that' - and they're like that because their minds have been well and truly broken by their religion.

Remember, christians burned and tortured people on a scale not seen by Islam and they wouldn't have been able to justify it to themselves if it wasn't for the fact that it was 'gods work'.

People died to free themselves of the shackles of christianity. Islam's next. People are gonna die (already are). This is because organised religion is one of the greatest evils ever to be foisted upon mankind.


In this context, burning the koran is an important image for fundamentalist muslims to see, fight about and get over.

Fuck Islam. Bring on the burning. Challenge the dogma. The sooner we get on with it the faster hundreds of millions of people will be freed from the prison of religious dogma...

(...freed to walk straight into the straightjacket of capitalism, but that's another thread)

 

[Scouse]

BBC News - US pastor Terry Jones cancels Koran burning

chicken shit

Gah. Late as usual. And after typing all that shit

Terry Jones said he was calling off the event after the group behind a planned Islamic centre near Ground Zero in New York agreed to relocate it

??

Thought he was sending a message to Islamic fundamentalists that Americans would no longer be scared of 'em? Coward...

Ah well, strike one for Islam eh? I, for one, welcome our Islamic overlords!

 

[Ch3tan]

No no Scouse, the whole event was apparently a protest to a mosque being located near ground zero.

And now he's cancelled it because he is claiming it's being relocated, something the people behind the mosque deny.

 

[SheepCow]

Has it been that long since Nazi Germany that we don't care about book burning now?

Yes

 

[rynnor]

Has it been that long since Nazi Germany that we don't care about book burning now?

There were book burnings in the US under McCarthy in 1953 so you'd have to say that the nazi book burnings were forgotten very quickly.

 

[nath]

Sorry Scouse, but what a colossal bag of shit.

You're projecting all of this high minded anti-repression on to what is an ill-informed retard. He had never read the Koran, he knows NOTHING about Islam. I don't see this as progressing things forward at all, America is a massively religious and right-wing place, it's likely people want to burn the Koran because the particular shade of bullshit it peddles isn't theirs.

I'm all for attacking religion when there's a sensible reason for doing so, this guy didn't have one. And for fucks sake, good reasons to attack religion are *not* hard to find.

 

[ilaya]

now that he's backed down... can we do a "throw a pig through a mosque window" day instead.. i've phoned kerry katona, she's fine with it

 

[Scouse]

You're projecting all of this high minded anti-repression on to what is an ill-informed retard.

Disagree nath. I don't give a f*ck about this ill-informed retard. Not one bit (as can be seen by the fact that I didnt even know that building a mosque near the WTC site was part of his reasoning).

As far as I'm concerned an attack on religion is an attack on religion. In this case I don't care why it's being done - as long as it happens. The end result would be the same. And the end result is what this is all about for me.

I'd turn it the other way round for you - you'd "miss the opportunity" because the reasons for it aren't "pure" or something...


Screw the reasons behind it (the reasons behind attacks on pretty much anything are generally a moot point anyway - look at our recent wars) - the result, in this case, is all-important

 

[MYstIC G]

If it even helps recruit one more maniac then it's worth stopping.

Burning X number of objects (holy books or no) does not increase or decrease Y number of maniacs in the world. Mental people are always going to exist and do mental things, it's the way things are.

This guy is mental, he's deliberately trying to piss of masses of other people.

Guys who strap bombs to themselves are mental.

All things being equal, this guy is fucking insensitive but I can also see why sticking a mosque/islamic centre near a place that was supposedly destroyed in the name of islam could be pissing off a lot of yanks.

 

[Krazeh]

Disagree nath. I don't give a f*ck about this ill-informed retard. Not one bit (as can be seen by the fact that I didnt even know that building a mosque near the WTC site was part of his reasoning).

As far as I'm concerned an attack on religion is an attack on religion. In this case I don't care why it's being done - as long as it happens. The end result would be the same. And the end result is what this is all about for me.

I'd turn it the other way round for you - you'd "miss the opportunity" because the reasons for it aren't "pure" or something...


Screw the reasons behind it (the reasons behind attacks on pretty much anything are generally a moot point anyway - look at our recent wars) - the result, in this case, is all-important

I disagree, an attack on something (in this case religion) for the wrong reasons is worse than no attack at all. You can only hope for a good result from an attack on anything if your attack is made with good reason.

Taking Terry Jones' 'attack' as an example, he has no good reason to burn the Koran, it wass simply being done because he's a prick, wanted to annoy/upset people and wanted his 5 minutes of fame. Do you think that had he gone ahead with his plan that it would have done anything to affect the repression you attribute to Islam? Or in fact do anything other than cause followers of Islam to view the West with even more contempt than they already do and feel even more strongly about their beliefs?

In short, an attack on religion for the wrong reasons is only ever going to push the followers of that religion even further into their beliefs.

 

[Scouse]

I disagree with that assessment Krazeh. Can't really say more than I have

 

[old.Tohtori]

Well before i head off for a nice vacation, from games, forum and all, i'd just like to say that i think, personally, that the whole "islam is opresxsing us" thing is cooked up by those that claim the opression.

It's not like we have concentration camps, slavery and denied freedoms around here, ran by an evil islam dictatorship.

Nothing has changed, except that people suddenly think islam is somehow limiting our freedoms.

This whole threat to freedom is propaganda and all in your head.

Sure, some islam members may bomb a thing or two, but we don't go blaming every bombing as "opression of freedom". Never have, so why the special treatment?

If people forgot the whole anti-islam thing, which is a tall order, there would be no threat to freedom as people wouldn't make it up.

In a nutshell; when was the last time a member of islam told you not to do something? Or was it AFTER you did it that they said "We dun like that."

 

[Scouse]

Ok, predictable response from Toht considering the ramifications for his own religious beliefs. Anyone else?

 

[Raven]

It's not like we have concentration camps, slavery and denied freedoms around here

We do actually. Enforced marriages, "honour killings" women not being given a voice and being virtual slaves. A vocal minority think non Muslims should be persecuted, though in all fairness very few peaceful Muslims actually carry on like this but they don't speak out against any of it either, which in my book makes them just as bad as the perpetrators.

I will quite happily attack an institution such as Islam because it is evil, corrupt and run by criminals. Much like Christianity was before western culture developed enough to challenge it. Its still utter bullshit and run by criminals but it can no longer persecute non believers.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Ok, predictable response from Toht considering the ramifications for his own religious beliefs. Anyone else?

Yeah like you know anything about my beliefs

I'd actually be interested to hear what your delusions on that are.

We do actually. Enforced marriages, "honour killings" women not being given a voice and being virtual slaves.

So this is a usual day in the UK hmm? Especially outside the muslim families, bet they're forcing your kids to marry right?

I didn't say that's not going on THERE. It's their culture, their call, their laws and so on. I was talking about the mirage of "opressing the western civilization".

You can object to islam culture all you want, i never disputed that.

 

[Scouse]

So this is a usual day in the UK hmm?

Yes actually.


But, as nath has pointed out, you're twisting the argument (as usual).


Islam (and organised religion in general) is an oppresive regime. It doesn't matter where it's happening. And that's abundently clear in my post.

 

[ford prefect]

I think I said it all in my previous post really, but I will add that the theological differences between Christianity and Islam are actually very small. Whether you agree or disagree with Islamic law it is a set of religious beliefs which has been applied as law since the middle ages and is also responsible for jurisprudence. That makes it the most far reaching, long lasting legal system in the history of civilization.

The Christian faith has or more to the point is slowly adapting to 21st century society, Islam unfortunately, because it is seen as a set of very specific laws to live by hasn't changed. That is the major difference. Islam literally translated means "The Noble Teachings" and the core teachings of the profits (including Jesus), are teachings of peace. The extremism comes from similar places to Christian extremism, where some people put the literal truth of there religious texts above and beyond common sense and modern society

Islam isn't inherently bad anymore than Christianity is, it is just at the moment the media and politicians are failing to point out that these extremists are in the smallest possible minority. By and large this is a situation we are making for ourselves, by giving extremists on both sides exactly what they want – publicity and power.

EDIT:- Oh and incidentally if you have ever read the Koran, you will know it forbids arranged marridge.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Yes actually.

But, as nath has pointed out, you're twisting the argument (as usual).

Islam (and organised religion in general) is an oppresive regime. It doesn't matter where it's happening. And that's abundently clear in my post.

No twisting, a very clear post i made, which you seem to think means "islam is not opressing ANY people". Which it didn't say.

By the way; don't talk for Nath, if nath thinks i'm doing something, then Nath will say it.

Here's a tl:du(didn't understand) post for you;

Outside islam people, in the western culture, the opression is a made-up concept and no islam dictatorship is opressing the western world.

Nothing to do with islam opressing own people.

Still can't answer what i asked you, 'cause you can't

 

[Scouse]

Islam isn't inherently bad anymore than Christianity is,

Disagree. Strongly.

The messages contained within the books aren't necessarily bad (although women and homosexuals would disagree with that).

The inherent 'badness' comes from the systemic implications. History shows both of these religions are responsible for atrocities that we can barely comprehend.

To ignore what has actually happened is denialism of the worst kind. (Which, coincedentally, is exactly what religion relies on).