News Koran burning?

[old.Tohtori]

Well i compared that to alcohol in another thread;

Alcohol makes some people act like violent wifebeaters, but to most it doesn't do much harm outside a hangover.

Religion is the same.

People are the problem.

Remove bad apples like those who get drunk and beat people, let others enjoy their drinks.

 

[Scouse]

Toht. You started talking about something at a tangent from the point as if you were actually talking about the point.

Hence the accusation of you twisting the argument. Which you have.

 

[ford prefect]

Disagree. Strongly.

The messages contained within the books aren't necessarily bad (although women and homosexuals would disagree with that).

The inherent 'badness' comes from the systemic implications. History shows both of these religions are responsible for atrocities that we can barely comprehend.

To ignore what has actually happened is denialism of the worst kind. (Which, coincedentally, is exactly what religion relies on).

Of course they are both guilty of atrocities, in fact some of the worst things that have been done, have been done in the name of religion. What I would suggest is that time and time again this has happened due to extremists. Your average Christian or Muslim wouldn’t want to crucify someone because they were homosexual for example, nor would they condone the bombing of innocent people. The media would have us believe that every Muslim is an extremist. What you are talking about here is a tiny faction of people who are exploiting the easily lead, the dispossessed and the vulnerable and using them for their own twisted pseudo religious / political means. All the media are doing at the moment is creating an inherent distrust between nations which simply isn’t necessary.

 

[Scouse]

Remove bad apples like those who get drunk and beat people, let others enjoy their drinks.

Like the pope? The high-up cardinals?

You know, the ones who order burnings, torture, religious war. The ones who cover up child abuse.

Or the Imam's who issue fatwah's eh?


Or does that hint at a systemic problem? Hmmmmm. I wonder....

 

[old.Tohtori]

Toht. You started talking about something at a tangent from the point as if you were actually talking about the point.

Hence the accusation of you twisting the argument. Which you have.

Err no, i made a point. It wasn't against you, the pope or the high mahatma of zimbabwe. Just a point, a point about paranoia of "loss of freedom" in western culture.

It fits the random rants you've been making, by some degree i guess, but it has nothing to do with your selfish arse.

Everything is not about you.

If you have somethign viable to say against what i said, instead of arguing something that i didn't say, then do so, otherwise, shut up.

Like the pope? The high-up cardinals?

You know, the ones who order burnings, torture, religious war. The ones who cover up child abuse.

Or the Imam's who issue fatwah's eh?

Or does that hint at a systemic problem? Hmmmmm. I wonder....

I said what i said, you offered no counter to it.

Removing bad apples is quite a clear concept you know.

So is "people are the problem".

 

[Scouse]

What I would suggest is that time and time again this has happened due to extremists

And I'd disagree with this too old bean.

Religious wars, the inquisition, the suppression of information that eventually lead to the enlightenment, sexual repression etc. etc. etc.

All these things come from the top down. Reactions by the Catholic church to threats to its existence. Threats to dogma. Threats to their beliefs.

You're looking at it from a modern viewpoint. Take a wider historical view and things become obvious.

 

[Scouse]

Removing bad apples is quite a clear concept you know.

So is "people are the problem".

Both of these are things I've answered with my "what, remove the pope?" post...

 

[old.Tohtori]

Both of these are things I've answered with my "what, remove the pope?" post...

No, you made a post that tries to ridicule my point without actually answering or countering it.

If removing the pope is removing the bad apple, then that's what i said.

If the pope is the problem, then the solution is to remove the problematic person.

It's quite clear, aruge it clearly or shhh.

 

[Calaen]

Both of these are things I've answered with my "what, remove the pope?" post...

Just leave him alone Scouse

His med delivery is clearly late this week!!!

 

[old.Tohtori]

Just leave him alone Scouse

His med delivery is clearly late this week!!!

Why don't you use the ignore function as it's intended, ignore me and stop posting non-topical flames opr contribute

 

[Krazeh]

And I'd disagree with this too old bean.

Religious wars, the inquisition, the suppression of information that eventually lead to the enlightenment, sexual repression etc. etc. etc.

All these things come from the top down. Reactions by the Catholic church to threats to its existence. Threats to dogma. Threats to their beliefs.

You're looking at it from a modern viewpoint. Take a wider historical view and things become obvious.

And had it not been religion it would have been something else that people could use to unify themselves as a group against outsiders. It's all tribal mentality at the end of the day, us against them. Religion just happens to be a popular way in which people define themselves as being part of a group.

Think what i'm trying to say is it's not the religion in itself that is bad or causes bad things. It's the people involved in running the religion and the extremists within the group that causes bad things to happen. In exactly the same way as would occur if people had put themselves into groups based on something completely different than their religious leanings. As long as there's an us vs them mentality bad things can happen.

 

[Scouse]

No, you made a post that tries to ridicule my point without actually answering or countering it.

Actually Toht, I didn't ridicule your point. I very succinctly countered it and then showed you that it was a systemic problem


So there's a possibility of two things going on here:

1) You're ignoring a very cogent and obvious argument
2) You lack the ability to see said argument

Simple eh? But carry on getting pissy about it....

 

[Scouse]

And had it not been religion it would have been something else that people could use to unify themselves as a group against outsiders. It's all tribal mentality at the end of the day, us against them. Religion just happens to be a popular way in which people define themselves as being part of a group.

Possibly. I can't account for what didn't happen


However, your argument doesn't mean that religion is good. It's still a massive bag of horrid horrid violently repressive shite

 

[old.Tohtori]

Actually Toht, I didn't ridicule your point. I very succinctly countered it and then showed you that it was a systemic problem

Did i deny that? No.

Did my post have some form of "we can only remove individuals without power" clause? No.

It's very clear what i said, remove bad apples, people are the problem.

You making examples of such people and/or bad apples is NOT countering the point, it's simply giving examples of what you think are usch individuals.

So, two options;

A: You agree that we should remove bad apples and that people are the problem.
B: You disagree with it and tell me why.

EDIT:

Oh and you still haven't answered;

Yeah like you know anything about my beliefs

I'd actually be interested to hear what your delusions on that are.

 

[ford prefect]

And I'd disagree with this too old bean.

Religious wars, the inquisition, the suppression of information that eventually lead to the enlightenment, sexual repression etc. etc. etc.

All these things come from the top down. Reactions by the Catholic church to threats to its existence. Threats to dogma. Threats to their beliefs.

You're looking at it from a modern viewpoint. Take a wider historical view and things become obvious.

Perhaps you are right, but I am looking at it from a modern viewpoint because this has been made a modern issue. If you are british esepcially, you have ancestors who were part of these events, but the past is doesn't realy matter. What matters now is that the media and the politicians have been influencing the public and doing their best to convince us that every Muslim is a potential bomber, the truth is inconveneient and therefore easily ignored in the modern world, where media is king.

Don't misunderstand my sentiments here, Sadam for example was a dictator and the whole of the middle east has similar problems, this is because Islamic law hasn't evolved and changed, and so it is all too easy for those with a taste for power to keep the multitude supressed by fear and force (especially ironic when you consider that Islam teaches peace - so any uprising involving violence was never really going to happen and if a few tried, they were cruelly delt with as an example).

These people aren't the bad guys, these people are a people of faith. You may think there relgion is backward and you may think that religion is wrong, but dictators aside, this is a religion which is very closely based on the same concepts as christiany and it is a set of laws that has worked and remained unchanged for over eight hundred years.

I would agree that the attitudes of Islam towards homosexuality and women have no place in a modern world, but then Islam isn't that far behind catholocism on both of those points - 40 years ago homosexuality was illegal in this country. I doubt every islamic woman feels oppressed and I would suggest that most would probably feel offended if you suggested that they should.

 

[rynnor]

What I would suggest is that time and time again this has happened due to extremists. Your average Christian or Muslim wouldn’t want to crucify someone because they were homosexual for example, nor would they condone the bombing of innocent people. The media would have us believe that every Muslim is an extremist.

Its obvious that not every Muslim is an extremist since logically there would cease to be an extreme if everyone was the same

The worrying thing about the Muslims I have known is that under a normal semblance lurk suprisingly extreme views. They arent extremists but they have a great deal of sympathy for the extremists and will not condemn their actions.

That is a problem and illustrates the gulf that prevents their true integration.

 

[Scouse]

B: You disagree with it and tell me why.

I've disagreed and told you why twice now.


Third time for good luck:


It's a systemic problem.

Remove the pope and all his cardinals and what happens?

They get replaced and, guess what, they're replaced by people who believe the same shit! They take their pointers from the same book. It's a system that still requires people to be scared of a non-existent sky-fairy and forms a heirarchical structure that is still threatened by people showing other people how the world actually works.

The pope, being human and not *actually* the voice of god like the catholics believe, will move to protect his band of duffers. And there's only one way to protect it...

Simple

 

[ford prefect]

The worrying thing about the Muslims I have known is that under a normal semblance lurk suprisingly extreme views. They arent extremists but they have a great deal of sympathy for the extremists and will not condemn their actions.

That is a problem and illustrates the gulf that prevents their true integration.

I can't really comment on that as it isn't something I have noticed or encountered before. I have muslim collegues and friends from Univiersity and none of thm have ever expressed particularly extreme views. Maybe I live a very sheltered life.

 

[Raven]

their call, their laws and so on. I was talking about the mirage of "opressing the western civilization"..

Its our laws actually. We do not recognise sharia law in the UK.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Sigh Scouse, guess i have to make it even simpler;

Remove all things that cause a problem. If the position of a pope is such, remove it. If bob down the street is that problem, remove it.

Joe average from colombia isn't the problem, as he's not trying to force religion down others throats or bomb a quickie mart.

It being a -systematic problem- doesn't mean i'm wrong in what i said, i'm quite right actually and you haven't countered it yet. Systematic or not, big or small, large or your cock size, doesn't matter when i say "Remove bad apples" or "people are the problem, not the system".

Its our laws actually. We do not recognise sharia law in the UK.

Yei for you, so? Doesn't change the point i made one bit.

 

[Scouse]

These people aren't the bad guys

I agree. It's not the people who are the problem. It's the system they live and work under that's the problem.


I wouldn't suggest to a woman living under Islamic rule that she should feel oppressed in the same way that I wouldn't suggest to the chavs who live next door to my g/f's house that they're horrible horrible chavs! - They wouldn't realise it even if it's put in front of their eyes.

And they'd start a fight over it

 

[Raven]

Yei for you, so? Doesn't change the point i made one bit.

It does.

Under UK law it is illegal to force someone to marry someone else, it is also illegal to murder them if they refuse. Regardless of which street they live on or which culture they belong to, murder is still illegal in the UK, as is forcing someone into something they do not want to do with the threat of violence and death. Understand? This does happen in the muslim society and very few come forward to speak out against it.

 

[Scouse]

Its our laws actually. We do not recognise sharia law in the UK.

Erm, actually.....

 

[rynnor]

Does anyone else feel like Pandora's box has been opened?

Now that one idiot has got massive coverage threatening to burn the Koran it seems to me inevitable that other extremists will try the same thing?

 

[Scouse]

It being a -systematic problem- doesn't mean i'm wrong in what i said, i'm quite right actually and you haven't countered it yet. Systematic or not, big or small, large or your cock size, doesn't matter when i say "Remove bad apples" or "people are the problem, not the system".

I said systemic, not systematic.

The system is the problem. Not the people.

 

[Scouse]

Does anyone else feel like Pandora's box has been opened?

Now that one idiot has got massive coverage threatening to burn the Koran it seems to me inevitable that other extremists will try the same thing?

Hope so

 

[old.Tohtori]

It does.

Under UK law it is illegal to force someone to marry someone else, it is also illegal to murder them if they refuse. Regardless of which street they live on or which culture they belong to, murder is still illegal in the UK, as is forcing someone into something they do not want to do with the threat of violence and death. Understand? This does happen in the muslim society and very few come forward to speak out against it.

Did i say anywhere that it doesn't happen in muslim countries?

Did i say that it's not illegal in the UK?

Don't think so, i said quite the opposite; no threat to our freedoms.

Never said anything about muslim countries.

I said systemic, not systematic.

The system is the problem. Not the people.

No it's not. Like i said with alcohol.

Just have to remove the broken pieces, rotten apples, etc and it's a nice system.

It's a broken engine at best.

 

[Scouse]

No it's not. Like i said with alcohol.

Just have to remove the broken pieces, rotten apples, etc and it's a nice system.

It's a broken engine at best.

Well, one of us is right...

 

[ford prefect]

It does.

Under UK law it is illegal to force someone to marry someone else, it is also illegal to murder them if they refuse. Regardless of which street they live on or which culture they belong to, murder is still illegal in the UK, as is forcing someone into something they do not want to do with the threat of violence and death. Understand? This does happen in the muslim society and very few come forward to speak out against it.

I'm paraphrasing here because I can't be bothered to look up the exact passage, but the Koran says:

Those of faith are forbidden from inheriting a woman against her will, nor shall she be treated with harshness or denied the dower owed to her unless she is guilty of lewdness; you must live to learn with her on a footing of kindness and equality.

In other words a true Muslim man will not force marridge on a woman, and they will see there spuse as an equal partner throught there lives. I'm not saying that arranged marridges don't happen obviously, but it is against the will of Allah and therefore against islam. In the same way a true christian won't steal or sleep with his neighbours wife, a muslim will respect his wife and it will be a mutual union.

 

[Scouse]

Nice way of showing how much bullshit religion really is there ford