[RANT] BW are balanced!

[Muylaetrix]

thing with sorcs and BWs is that they NEED their group and can`t do shit without having a healer taking care of them.

i`ve been in situations in scenarios where ther was noone who could heal in my group and i strugled to get in the top 10 of damage dealt and i`ve been in a situation where the group i was in had 2 sorcs + 4 healers (that was a funny run !!!!) and outdamaged everyone by a very large margin. i mean, 2 sorcs did more damage than all of order combined (and, lol, the 4 healers had all done more than 50k healing each on the 2 sorcs )

when in a solo situation, and i die and look at my log, i most of the time see i did more damage to myself than my enemy did to me.

at level 32 i suffer 600 damage from a backlash while i do less than 500 on a doombolt without critting. it`s only the crits that make me do more damage on my target than i suffer from myself really.

all you have to do as a healer to win from a single sorc or BW it seems is keeping yourself alive for 15 secs... after 25 secs the BW and sorc will be dead from self inflicted damage.

in tor anroc, the difference between a good group (100+ K damage and 10+ kills) for my sorc and an utter crap group (15-25k damage and 1-3 kills if i`m lucky) is shocking at times.

yes, sorcs and BWs are capable (under the right conditions) of doing more damage than any other class, they are also way more fragile than any other class.

balanced ? when you compare the advantages and disadvantages of the two pure nuker classes, i think they are balanced.
powerfull ? most certainly.
overpowered ? no. from all the classes, we are the easiest to kill.

BW`s have a slight advantage over sorcs with their superior dot line which makes it much easier for them to do stuff while moving and stacking dots which are practically impossible to counter except with massive healing.

just my 5 cents.

 

[Xandax]

<snip>
You post pics showing PuG's in TA where some high level Sorc did better than a BW or two. WoW absolute unequivacable truth, proved!
I could play tonight and post 10 where Desctruction get trounced due to BW's and overuse of KB. Damage in Scene's does not really prove anything. Half the time you have no healers in groups or no tanks. If you can't see the issues with BW's being alble to stack DoT's and take down a tanks HP's with ease then fine, you're blinded by the holy light of 'I wanna win with my OP bullshit!

My screen shots are just as valid as arguments as everybody else, and I could have taken hundreds of screen shots showing non-BW being "on top". Personally - I care nothing for the damage done column. I care for the "who win" column as the two are not always representative.
I see Sorceres out damage Bright Wizards regularly, I see tanks out damage, I see Witch Elves - heck I see Magnus and Engineers out damage.
When Sorcerers are there, I see them score as many - or more - "deatblows" as BWs.
There are many Sorcerers on K8P who play very well and they know how to play their class. The Sorcerer is not underpowered - it might be more difficult to play - but it holds at least as much power.

The entire topic goes right back down to how many people play the class compared to the counter part. Many people on Destruction plays tanks and healers, compared to Order side where it is especially the Bright Wizard that draws people. Thus more people will encounter larger number of Wizards then Sorcerers. However in a scenario with 5 or 6 sorcerers they wiped us hard.

But people just focus on the fact that BW have immolation spec - which does not kill many people - but it is easy to play. (For the record, I'm not immolation specced, so nerfing that tree will do me no harm personally).
And people just focus on these things without thinking one tiny bit about the other aspects. About numbers, class balance etc. And when trying to interject some logic from "our side" of the fence, we just get slapped with more screen shots which are valid when showing "your side" of the fence.
The grass is indeed greener. I played a Sorcerer throughout beta and have started one, simply because it is my favourite class bar none in this game. When ever I see a Sorcerer in a scenario- I do my best either to harrash or kill him, simply because I know the kind of damage and battle turning opportunities they have.

<snip>
Not blinded at all by the want for 'I win' buttons. Quite the opposite. I want all roots to break on damage. Stupid that they don't. Have played a sorc quite a bit and the root is nowhere near as effective as BW.
<snip>

And there I know you are talking nonsense. The Sorcerer grip spell works just as the firecage one. You are blinded by "faction" and not balance.
My cage breaks, my cage doesn't always "catch" people etc - just as the Sorcerers grip spell. Their root is as effective from my perspective as both playing a Sorc and playing as Order against Sorcerers.

I truly hope Mythic doesn't listen to many of these "screen shot" whiners - simply because it'll ruin the game for Order if the BW gets nerfed and the Sorcerer doesn't. Plus combined with the overall balance of the game.
Remember - it is only War when you have somebody to fight.

 

[Afran]

thing with sorcs and BWs is that they NEED their group and can`t do shit without having a healer taking care of them.

Not true though

 

[aika]

Not true though

very true for t4, solo you can kill.. hm.. a sorc! or a zealot which wont run away from you xD

 

[Afran]

very true for t4, solo you can kill.. hm.. a sorc! or a zealot which wont run away from you xD

Shaman, Sorc, Marauder, Chosen, Magus, Squig Herder, anything else I'm missing? These are all killable 1v1. *awaits "but you're 29" ^^*

 

[Hawkwind]

I see Sorceres out damage Bright Wizards regularly, I see tanks out damage, I see Witch Elves - heck I see Magnus and Engineers out damage.

Can say the same about BW's in Scenes I've been in. Problem is that scenes tend to be very one sided. That isn't down to one char type but for many reasons. Maybe no tanks, no healers.

I did 5-6 TA's last night in a row on DoK where we drove Order back to their spawn and beat them 500 to between 30-150. Then joined an Alliance group, we lost the next 3 in a row by a big margin. Spent most of those scene in lava or waiting for 30 plus secs for spawn.

Then we started winning, four in a row and completely one sided.

When Sorcerers are there, I see them score as many - or more - "deatblows" as BWs.

DB's are not really that valid - its the killing blow but when you have 3-4 ppl damaging you its a lottery who gets it. I get anything from 1 to 18 and probably average 6. I certainly don't base my performance on it. Even damage can be misleading if its not effective. nuking a tank that's getting healed is fairly pointless unless there are several focused on him.

There are many Sorcerers on K8P who play very well and they know how to play their class. The Sorcerer is not underpowered - it might be more difficult to play - but it holds at least as much power.

Ok, reading between the lines here, if anyone moans about BW and KB in TA they must be shite at playing their class?

I never said sorc was underpowered in fact I don't think anyone has in this thread. DoT's = Insta cast and can be done on the run. Sorc has to stand still for any AoE, bolt, nuke or DD for several seconds which makes us easy target for KB. The lag in game does not help either. I notice you did not address the range issues I mentioned between the two classes. The fact that those DoT's are put on a Sorc bolt range.

The entire topic goes right back down to how many people play the class compared to the counter part. Many people on Destruction plays tanks and healers, compared to Order side where it is especially the Bright Wizard that draws people. Thus more people will encounter larger number of Wizards then Sorcerers. However in a scenario with 5 or 6 sorcerers they wiped us hard.

Totally agree the FOTM roll is a BW.

And there I know you are talking nonsense. The Sorcerer grip spell works just as the firecage one. You are blinded by "faction" and not balance.
My cage breaks, my cage doesn't always "catch" people etc - just as the Sorcerers grip spell. Their root is as effective from my perspective as both playing a Sorc and playing as Order against Sorcerers.

Well when I'm being harrassed by tanks I can count the number of times AOE Root has worked on one hand. However, you say it's OK. So you must be right. Something wrong with my install & hardware setup I guess

I truly hope Mythic doesn't listen to many of these "screen shot" whiners - simply because it'll ruin the game for Order if the BW gets nerfed and the Sorcerer doesn't. Plus combined with the overall balance of the game. Remember - it is only War when you have somebody to fight.

It's not about the screen shots at all. I'm sure they (Mythic) won't nerf anything based on that evidence alone. Will unstacking the DoT's and giving you a castable DD or something similar really nerf BW's so bad? Might change the play style a bit. No one wants to see Order suffer as a realm, you do need a heavy tank class badly. Not everyone wants to play an ugly stuntie. The new knight Class should help address that.

Maybe you should also get the Slayer Class berserker that was shown in the promoitional vid.

 

[Xandax]

Can say the same about BW's in Scenes I've been in. Problem is that scenes tend to be very one sided. That isn't down to one char type but for many reasons. Maybe no tanks, no healers.

I did 5-6 TA's last night in a row on DoK where we drove Order back to their spawn and beat them 500 to between 30-150. Then joined an Alliance group, we lost the next 3 in a row by a big margin. Spent most of those scene in lava or waiting for 30 plus secs for spawn.

Then we started winning, four in a row and completely one sided.
<snip>

Which is exactly my point.

Using such a type of information - scenarios and especially score card - is completely impossible, because there are many factors playing into the equation.
Yet when ever we see these topics - that is exactly what people keep focusing on. People tunnelvision when they see a BW on the top of the damage done, that they forget or ignore everything else.

That is why posting screen shots and crying "nerf" does nobody any good - except perhaps for the people who died but wanted to win everything without trying and doesn't want any opposition.
It is the old saying "I am rock. Scissors are fine, but nerf paper"

<snip>
Well when I'm being harrassed by tanks I can count the number of times AOE Root has worked on one hand. However, you say it's OK. So you must be right. Something wrong with my install & hardware setup I guess

Do you really want to go into this type of argument? You know I can just repeat that line and have it be just as valid from "my" point of view, right?

As I said - playing both a Sorcerer and a BW - I've seen no difference in functionality of the root. I see many people getting stuck in the Sorcerer root - myself inclusive. My root as a BW works like my root as a Sorcerer.
I think it is the grass is greener once more and the fact that there (usually) are more BWs in the combat, thus more potential roots, so if one persons fail - the others might stick.
Lest you have done some actual testing with numbers showing a disparity, I attribute your "logic" to the grass is greener syndrome, because it is by far not my experience from playing both classes. But perhaps it is only your hardware/install indeed.

 

[aika]

Shaman, Sorc, Marauder, Chosen, Magus, Squig Herder, anything else I'm missing? These are all killable 1v1. *awaits "but you're 29" ^^*

shaman is 50/50, chosen depends is not a guaranteed kill either, magus I agree xD, SH didnt have 1v1 so dunno, marauder? no chance at all, charge, knockdown, byebye in 5 secs ;<
I can kill an unstealthed WE, marauder is impossible, you dont do enough dmg when you start at 0 combustion, he can break you root and has knockdown and that fetch thingie so you cant run.

inb4 Stop drop and roll - I dont have it

 

[Kiukku]

all fine here...

 

[00dave]

well yeah because it looks like the order had 2 dedicated healers at least that trounced the destro healers, and with no tanks to heal they would have concentrated on the bws. Yes I am aware of the fact we can't see the bottom of the list. Perhaps they were even *shock horror* guild mates on voice coms

Seriously don't bring your screenshots here anymore, they mean nothings out of context, and as I've already said scenarios are open to so many factors as the game stands right now. I could show you a screenshot I have of a black orc doing 29k damage and 16k healing at level 12 in a tier 2 scenario, perfectly good explanation for it but still doesn't look right.

 

[Soazak]

well yeah because it looks like the order had 2 dedicated healers at least that trounced the destro healers, and with no tanks to heal they would have concentrated on the bws. Yes I am aware of the fact we can't see the bottom of the list. Perhaps they were even *shock horror* guild mates on voice coms

Seriously don't bring your screenshots here anymore, they mean nothings out of context, and as I've already said scenarios are open to so many factors as the game stands right now. I could show you a screenshot I have of a black orc doing 29k damage and 16k healing at level 12 in a tier 2 scenario, perfectly good explanation for it but still doesn't look right.

Agree with this, funny SS but end game stats mean nothing. Some players are better than others etc
Some BW will struggle to get 20k in tier4, some squigherder might pull 100k in tier 3, it's kinda situational and the end game stats say nothing about what happened in the scenario.

 

[pikeh]

Even with those BW's, it was hardly an emphatic win was it?
SS proves nothing, just funny seeing how everyone rolls one

 

[00dave]

I haven't rolled one, mainly because I've never been a big fan of casters but also because I spent nearly 10 minutes trying to get one to look good. More appearance choices for order are needed although I did get my WH to look like sean bean.

 

[Xandax]

Even with those BW's, it was hardly an emphatic win was it?
SS proves nothing, just funny seeing how everyone rolls one

There is no doubt in my mind that the large numbers are due only to the fact that there is so little "flash" on the Order side of things compared to Destruction. The fact that the human tank was taken out on Order side, properly did a lot to make people roll Bright Wizards instead or made people go Destruction for the Chosen (which does look good IMO).

Perhaps also a secondary caster on Order which wasn't a healer akin to the Magnus - would have lured some Bright Wizard players away. There is only one choice for non-healing caster on Order.

And I'm still sure that a large part of the reason we see so many complains/whines about Bright Wizards is that so many of us play them, compared to Sorcerers.

 

[Iorlas]

all fine here...

Don't you know by now that all that info after a scenario means nothing?it was just put in for fun and because they had spare time so thought,why not put some useless stats that don't actually mean anything but will look good at the end of all the scenarios?:lol:

 

[Afran]

shaman is 50/50, chosen depends is not a guaranteed kill either, magus I agree xD, SH didnt have 1v1 so dunno, marauder? no chance at all, charge, knockdown, byebye in 5 secs ;<
I can kill an unstealthed WE, marauder is impossible, you dont do enough dmg when you start at 0 combustion, he can break you root and has knockdown and that fetch thingie so you cant run.

inb4 Stop drop and roll - I dont have it

Then not having that is why you can't kill one. A marauder can barely touch you if you spec "right" and not a complete nub

 

[aika]

Then not having that is why you can't kill one. A marauder can barely touch you if you spec "right" and not a complete nub

well i'm conflag spec for magnet grpage, might respec sometime later xD

 

[00dave]

Don't you know by now that all that info after a scenario means nothing?it was just put in for fun and because they had spare time so thought,why not put some useless stats that don't actually mean anything but will look good at the end of all the scenarios?:lol:

 

[Iorlas]

Well thought out reply...wassup am i right and you have no smart ass answer?:kissit:

 

[Boggy]

all fine here...

The things that image made me think includes:

1) The guy who got 3.4k renown was a healer and noone is moaning about them being OP

2) All that damage an only a 2 pt spread makes me wonder if those BWs weren't just camped somewhere useless kill-farming.

3) Half the problem with BWs is in the class, the other half is in the players. Sure, it's annoying to find class imbalances, but it's forgivable in a complex balancing act of a game. What I find difficult to forgive is players who knowlingly exploit it by immediately rolling a class known to be OP and milking it for everything they can get, magnifying the imbalances massively. If the game gets ruined, it's them who ruin it every time.

 

[Afran]

1) The guy who got 3.4k renown was a healer and noone is moaning about them being OP

The healer could be a low RR, thus gets huge RP per kill due RR difference. He could also be solo healing, which ups Renown gain hugely. Plus, 3.4k isn't a lot.

 

[Boggy]

Maybe you mean in absolute terms. It was 20% more than the next highest and way more than double the average.

And he was level 37, not even below average level for the people in the scen with him.

 

[Leel]

I just hope they fix Playing with fire. People should adapt and get more elemental and corporeal resist. There seems to be no cap on stats or resists in this game, so you can mix and match items to get the stats you want.

Myself, I've started focusing on elemental and corporeal resists, and it seems to be paying off. The time to nerf bw damage is not now, and the dot stacking should also not be fiddled with at this time I think. When people learn to stack up on the resists against bw and have competent healers and learn to pull back in time, it won't be so bad. I find myself mostly playing my marauder as a banelord tank from daoc atm (in playstyle), running with defensive tactics most of the time. I don't die as much as I used to anymore.

Most wizzies seem to be focusing on high int and not caring much for the other stuff, making them easy kills. Just the other night I did around 950 damage with one round of melee swings. Style crit, two unstyled hits, dok buff proc, sorc buff proc. I was rather amazed.

There was a thread complaining about melee damage here also some time ago. So, I'm thinking, most people are going all out offense in making up their gear. This leads to people dying fast,and healers being less effective. When people learn to get more defense, healers will get a better chance at saving their hide. Just give it some time before making nerf decisions imo.
Oh,and I saw the marauder pull-in style in use for the first time also. Sick! It needs a fix surely, like playing with fire does.

 

[00dave]

Well thought out reply...wassup am i right and you have no smart ass answer?:kissit:

It was a more well thought out reply than the reply it was originally intended to reply to

 

[Fuddle]

I am playing T3 scenarios at the moment and destruction win 5:1, basically they push us with tanks, with healers in the back, we dont have tanks so cant push back happens over and over i cant get to a destruction support class without running through 5-6 tanks then sorc's at the back with the support.

Order lacking in both healers and tanks not to say all over classes look like shite compared to destruction Bar the bright wizard & engineer.

My 2 cents

 

[Afran]

all over classes look like shite compared to destruction Bar the bright wizard & engineer.

Engineer? Haha. Ironbreakers are op to fuck as are BWs

 

[Shike]

Engineer? Haha. Ironbreakers are op to fuck as are BWs

He said look.

 

[Ezeine]

People should adapt and get more elemental and corporeal resist.

Hardly helps against the insane crits though.

 

[Ctuchik]

While I do think BW's need a tonedown I also think Sorcs need a tonedown aswell.

just up the backlash chance on 100/100 dark magick to 100% and then up the damage done by it so they cant run around with capped dark magic without actually suffer from it.

right now, atleast on my sorc, the chance to actually get a backlash from it isnt nearly as high as it says. and the damage i get from it, while it hurts alittle if someone is attacking me at the same time, isnt all that much of a concern if i'm left alone to nuke.

 

[Andrilyn]

People should adapt and get more elemental and corporeal resist.

Sadly that doesn't work, my shaman has over 50% resists in all 3 resists thanks to the resists buff we get but still get nuked for silly numbers like 1258 (68 mitigated!).
Crits are broken as they seem to go through basically all your defences including resists and armour, and seeing BWs and Sorcs complete concept is designed around crits they benefit the most of this bug.

Unless they fix this crit bug no possible amount of resists are going to save you from their damage.