[RANT] BW are balanced!

[Leel]

Well, ironbreakers can counter the pull-in kinda easily with ae knockback, happened to me a few times as I was going in to aoe. It's a good anti tactic, works very well. Also most order teams seems to have ironbreakers.

 

[[HB]Jpeg]

Imo sorcs and Bws could do with a slight tone down of there dmge. not dramaticlly .. but slightly non the less as both hit to hard

 

[[HB]Jpeg]

i also think a lorra magic dmge is overlooked.... from what i can gather,,, in Daoc main concern was resists... but in war it seems most ppl capping the main stats 1st (ie: st as tanks... intel as casters.. balistic as ranged.) or toughness/wounds and not paying to much attention to magical resists as much as they did in camelot.

has any1 tried rvr with concentrating on magic resists ?

 

[Pandemic]

looking at those original pictures i'd say that the BW is an average class. The only stat that matters in that list is the no. of renown earnt and that BW earnt f**k all

 

[Hawkwind]

I often see Sorcs getting over 80k or even 100k damage in t3 and coming out top of the damage lists, i also often see many many scenarios where there are more sorcs than bws. Does that indicate sorcs are OP aswell or maybe more OP or is it just a simple case of sorc players being naturally more skilled ?

For a sorc to beat BW damage he has to be AOE'in multiple targets. So must be pretty stupid ppl to just stand in a nice tight group whilst he does it. On my sorc I tend to do between 50-70k. As most T3 scenes are TA we Destro's spend most the time flying into Lava or waiting 40secs for the release timer. With so many Order knockbacks it is difficult for us to compete. Especially with the crappy root we have.

BW's need a nerf, and Destro need Knock back earlier on some chars like DoK, getting it at L40 is a joke.

 

[Hawkwind]

meant to add:

Unstack the DOTs give them a decent casterable DD and make the Firecage breakable on damage. Give sorc a root that works.

 

[Turamber]

BW's need a nerf, and Destro need Knock back earlier on some chars like DoK, getting it at L40 is a joke.

BW is fine. And if you give DoK, overpowered already, an earlier knockback then you will have to give one to the WP too -- its supposed "mirror class" but, in reality, a country bumpkin by comparison.

 

[Xandax]

For a sorc to beat BW damage he has to be AOE'in multiple targets. So must be pretty stupid ppl to just stand in a nice tight group whilst he does it. On my sorc I tend to do between 50-70k. As most T3 scenes are TA we Destro's spend most the time flying into Lava or waiting 40secs for the release timer. With so many Order knockbacks it is difficult for us to compete. Especially with the crappy root we have.

BW's need a nerf, and Destro need Knock back earlier on some chars like DoK, getting it at L40 is a joke.

Guess how a BW scores big damage. Yah - by destruction people standing in a big clump. And seeing as you just declared people must be stupid to stand in a tight group to do so ..... well.
As for knockback - I guess the grass is greener. Order players spend as much time flying and rooted.

Sorcerers do regularly do as much damage as Bright Wizards. It is just that there are more Destruction whiners, a higher percentage of Order plays BW and well - there are more Destruction whiners.

Seeing as people are so fond of Screenshots showing the "ultimate truth":
Img1
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Heck - last night I was in a TA where there were 5 or 6 sorcerers and almost each one of them out damaged every BW in there. Too bad I apparently didn't get a screen of that, because people apparently only seem to think damage done column is so important.

I hate to say this but people should really L2P before whining that a class is overpowered and should be nerfed.
And especially coming from Destruction players with their numerous "overpowered" classes when viewed against their counter parts.
But as for Sorcerer and BW - it is quite clear that some people know how to play their Sorcerer and well.

meant to add:

Unstack the DOTs give them a decent casterable DD and make the Firecage breakable on damage. Give sorc a root that works.

Oh their root works just like firecage. I just guess you are too blinded by wanting i-win buttons to think of actually looking at both sides.

Nerf the Witch Elf to begin with and we can talk "balance".

 

[Amanita]

I'm loving my BW. Almost as much as my RP!

 

[ramathorn]

Oh their root works just like firecage. I just guess you are too blinded by wanting i-win buttons to think of actually looking at both sides.

Their root doesnt seem to break on damage and is not a hex therefore not dispelable, unless they fixed this in the patch recently (stopped playing my zealot so not sure)

topping damage tables means nothing, i really wish people would stop posting pictures of high aoe damage. it is only of use when the other side have no one healing, which in your screenshot seems to be the case. one person healing within ten people is never going to work out well. The ones with more than one healer the deathblows are quite a bit lower due to all that aoe damage being healed up with group heal.

i was on my sorc yesterday, level 16 at the time. a bright wizard (level 20) ran towards our spawn and dot'd me and then legged it being chased by a couple of dest folk. i seen the first tick hit me for over 400 so i thought i would just stand there and see how much damage it actually does. i had 2320 health, when the dot finished i was left with 290. Thats over 2k damage at level 20 from an instant spell. That is not right whatever way you cut it.

Thats exactly why I stopped playing my zealot, in t4 those dots have the potential to tick for nearly or maybe over 1k per tick (last time i played him the first "tick" of withering heat hit me for 1243 (got a ss)). Trying to heal that, from an instant spell, on everyone in your group, with three or more bright wizards throwing them out is not "balanced"

anyone who has not played on destruction against it and would like to see for themselves, I would be more than happy to let you try it out for the night.

I'm not a whiney person, please dont take this as a whine, just a counter comment to you. I know they will get "fixed" eventually, just like any other rediculous classes destruction have (dont know as i have not played against them). Thats why I have rolled an alt until they do.

 

[WaveZtream]

If you think WoW PvP is anything less than utterly broken you haven't logged into it since the last patch.

If you talking about the dmg yes I do was exactly the same when BC pre-patch came. But will be sorted when the actuall game is released.

And yeah you don't really play WOW for the PVP but atm you don't play War for PVP either. Can't wait or a new mmo to come out that will f***ing have some decent PVP at start.

 

[Jupitus]

Nerf the Witch Elf to begin with and we can talk "balance".

Eh??

 

[pikeh]

Aye, Nerf those Squig Herders as well while you are there! Bloody OP or what?!

 

[Downanael]

BW is just fine the counter the destro tank zerg,less whining now

 

[aika]

withering heat is not a dot :E

 

[ramathorn]

withering heat is not a dot :E

yeah i know, its a channeled spell, thats why i put the "tick" in inverted comma's. but it hits for x damage every x amount of time (doesnt it?)

 

[Hawkwind]

Guess how a BW scores big damage. Yah - by destruction people standing in a big clump. And seeing as you just declared people must be stupid to stand in a tight group to do so ..... well.

Yes, if people stand in clumps in RvR they deserve to get killed same in WAR as it was in DAOC. It still makes me laugh when I cast Pit of shades and people do not move, It's not like the BW's which just turns the ground grey 'Lava' something, it has huge graphics and you can''t miss it.

Personally (on Sorc) hardly ever see BW's get that close they usually stand away at what is bolt range for Sorc's and DOT away. Even when tanks are on them they have Knockback and Firecage as getaway or I win buttons. My root hardly ever works, no idea why. To use either of my two (1 spec'd) AoE's I have to be half the distance away.

Playing DoK when I get close to BW's they just Knockback or Firecage. If I survive by healing whilst rooted I can kill them.

As for knockback - I guess the grass is greener. Order players spend as much time flying and rooted.

I'm sorry but I honestly think that is complete bull! I believe only four Destro Classes get it at T3 level. So that would be BO, Chosen, Shamen and Zealot. Compare that to Order chars that get it at T3 levels, Witchunter, Ironbreaker, Rune Priest, Sword Master, Archamge and Bright Wizard. You think that's balanced? It's what makes TA a pain in the arse for Destro and generally the only Scene Order sign up for.

And especially coming from Destruction players with their numerous "overpowered" classes when viewed against their counter parts.
But as for Sorcerer and BW - it is quite clear that some people know how to play their Sorcerer and well.

Not sure it's possible to argue against such a well reasoned and thoroughly explained arguement

You post pics showing PuG's in TA where some high level Sorc did better than a BW or two. WoW absolute unequivacable truth, proved!
I could play tonight and post 10 where Desctruction get trounced due to BW's and overuse of KB. Damage in Scene's does not really prove anything. Half the time you have no healers in groups or no tanks. If you can't see the issues with BW's being alble to stack DoT's and take down a tanks HP's with ease then fine, you're blinded by the holy light of 'I wanna win with my OP bullshit!'

Oh their root works just like firecage. I just guess you are too blinded by wanting i-win buttons to think of actually looking at both sides.

Nerf the Witch Elf to begin with and we can talk "balance".

Not blinded at all by the want for 'I win' buttons. Quite the opposite. I want all roots to break on damage. Stupid that they don't. Have played a sorc quite a bit and the root is nowhere near as effective as BW.

I want Knockback taken out altogether, just make it knockdown. Just about every char type in Order seems to have it at T3 level. Why not the same for Destro? We only get it on 4 classes at T3 and one more I know of, DOK at lvl 40.

As for WE I have no idea not played one beyond L6. As such I could not possibly comment.

 

[Boggy]

If standing in a big clump is such a complete no no, why have flags (i.e. "stand near here" signs) used as objectives?

I'm sure there is a way you could have balanced AoE spells, rather than trying to achieve balance by making them overwhelmingly powerful and assuming noone will ever stand next to anyone else.

 

[Ogen]

If standing in a big clump is such a complete no no, why have flags (i.e. "stand near here" signs) used as objectives?

I'm sure there is a way you could have balanced AoE spells, rather than trying to achieve balance by making them overwhelmingly powerful and assuming noone will ever stand next to anyone else.

Your kidding? Could it be to make it a challenge to take the flags? Like you have to take the territory around it as part of the win?
Afaik, having played bouth bw and sorc, the aoe are the equal, but i hardly ever see sorcs using their aoe spells in sc´s.

The scoresheets are the same for the two classes, exept the order side have more bw´s then dest have sorcs.. Probebly becouse Dest have alot of other "cool looking" classes?

 

[00dave]

Hawkwind the whole point of Xandax's post is that the grass is always greener on the other side. Have you played order to the same standards as you have destro? I hope not because that would take up a lot of time. In that case you really cannot say his opinion is bullshit because he has played order and you haven't.

The arguement that screenshots prove nothing is valid, but why is it this thread has had screenshot after screenshot showing a bw with lots of damage, but when a screenshot of a sorc doing extreme damage is shown it "proves nothing".

The fact remains in this game is that thanks to extreme lag problems rvr is as someone else put it "Like well animated pinball" so you may find yourself beating on a caster and him not losing health, and you're thinking is he cheating? is he lagging? is he op? or is that a healer hiding in a tree utilising his half a mile range for healing? I mean how many times has someone managed to pick up a flag, artifact, etc because according to your screen they're still stealthed and next thing you know they're running away with funny glow about them.
Until the game plays a bit smoother it's difficult to judge whether a character is op. You say bw are op because of the number of them that you see nuking you down. Well I say DoK are op because I see a lot of them and there is not a lot that can stand up to them 1v1, BO are op because 2 or 3 of them wade into the order ranks and they just don't die. Destro tanks are less gay looking than ours is my favourite arguement though.

 

[aika]

bws get knockback only as morale ability or as backdraft which is very high in the conflag line, can only get it in the late 20's and you gimp yourself a lot until 40 by getting it.
while sorcs have a knockback tactic, each time one of their destruction path spells crits you get knockbacked ;E

http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=9514

 

[Hawkwind]

00Dave, I agree with just about everything you posted, with one exception. Xandax was imo stating that it only looks bad from our point of view and that it is infact the same for both sides. How can it possibly be the same when Order have twice the number of char types with that ability. In the mini game of TA ping pong we simply cannot compete.

Even on Sorc SM's and IB's just run up do KB. They can't even be bothered to use melee to kill me. It's a lazy OP ability in TA. I think Mythic made a big mistake with implimenting Knockback at all.

I rolled a DoK because of the self heal and being melee. Bit like Albion Friar in DAOC. I live in Dubai and right now am 4 hours ahead of UK. So your primetime is my bedtime. I needed a char to solo on. I would agree that they might be are a wee bit OP. However, we have no proper escape until R40 and crap armour. So not like we are unkillable. In T3 any equal level IB or SM should be able to take us down, if they are any good.

Regarding Order Tanks, I totally agree you do need a decent looking one but the one your getting soon still looks gay imo, nice head gear!

I'll be rolling a Black guard for sure. Would have been my first choice char tbh.

 

[Leel]

bws get knockback only as morale ability or as backdraft which is very high in the conflag line, can only get it in the late 20's and you gimp yourself a lot until 40 by getting it.
while sorcs have a knockback tactic, each time one of their destruction path spells crits you get knockbacked ;E

Triumphant Blasting - Abilities - Warhammer Online

The sorc knockback is obtained at level 33. As most of the knockback whines are about Tor Anroc, it's hardly relevant to the discussion.

 

[Javai]

The sorc knockback is obtained at level 33. As most of the knockback whines are about Tor Anroc, it's hardly relevant to the discussion.

It's also entirely unreliable, you can't control whether you crit and so you can't guarantee knocking anyone back, it's a mixed blessing tbh as if you use it then it will knock people out of pit of shades or out of nuke range which you generally dont want. It would make more sense if it was on single target spells rather than the aoes.

 

[Chronictank]

Personally (on Sorc) hardly ever see BW's get that close they usually stand away at what is bolt range for Sorc's and DOT away. Even when tanks are on them they have Knockback and Firecage as getaway or I win buttons. My root hardly ever works, no idea why. To use either of my two (1 spec'd) AoE's I have to be half the distance away.

Its same for BW, firecage sometimes hits sometimes doesnt its a bit of a lucky dip
The knockback is a morale ability, single target, has travel time like a bolt so you have no idea where it will send them
I have seen them go in slow motion on occasion hitting the target after i was dead for example

Playing DoK when I get close to BW's they just Knockback or Firecage. If I survive by healing whilst rooted I can kill them.

I'm sorry but I honestly think that is complete bull! I believe only four Destro Classes get it at T3 level. So that would be BO, Chosen, Shamen and Zealot. Compare that to Order chars that get it at T3 levels, Witchunter, Ironbreaker, Rune Priest, Sword Master, Archamge and Bright Wizard. You think that's balanced? It's what makes TA a pain in the arse for Destro and generally the only Scene Order sign up for.

I suggest you try playing order mate, the grass is not as green

BW is better than sorc in zerg warfare as they have killing power to drop most things, aoe wise i would say sorc is better especially if you pair up with a magnus
I think you will find when grps sort themselves the higher dd from a sorc will make them more favourable than the pressure grps a bw brings, at the start at least.

Tankwise its not even a choice, destro are far better in the tank department for a fg setup
Order dmg on the whole is pretty mediocre in the melee front, i played beta as destro live as a order and i can assue you a maurauder does alot more dmg than the sm equivalent (but then sm wears good armour and can equip a shield)

Knockback wise i completely agree with you, support and casters should never have got it.
It should be reserved for defensive classes only

Even on Sorc SM's and IB's just run up do KB. They can't even be bothered to use melee to kill me. It's a lazy OP ability in TA. I think Mythic made a big mistake with implimenting Knockback at all.

Probably because they want your healer not you
it easier to send you flying and drop the healer than try kill it while you nuke away

 

[Faeldawn]

Who cares really this game wont last more than 2 more month and it will be dead in the water. And on 13 of nov we will lose even more ppl to wotlk. Due to the insane problems War got with the balance of classes.


Mythic released the game 2 early, and the amount of ignorant ppl here that can't stay objective about stuff just amazes me. If you want a game to be all that it can you can't be subjective.


BW's are one of those classes that should be nerfed or even more people will leave. The gap between that specific class compared to the rest is so obvious.

Insane class balance problems? The game isn't balanced class v class, it's faction v faction. It's not a 1v1 game. Personally i think the balance is quite good, not perfect, but not too far off the mark.

I'm viewing the game objectively and your statement to me seems somewhat ignorant, see the irony?

 

[Ctuchik]

Only because a class has very high population doesn't instantly mean that they're overpowered.

that is usually the case. because most ppl want to do well. and that includes playing the strongest class they can find (usually the one that deals most damage).

more popularly known as FOTM classes...

 

[Boggy]

Your kidding? Could it be to make it a challenge to take the flags? Like you have to take the territory around it as part of the win?

That's the point isn't it? When AoE isn't the overwhelming factor, it's a challenge to take the territory, all the players on one side contesting it against all the players on the other. When AoE has a disproportionate impact, it's no longer a challenge - it is a matter of people on AoE classes running in, wiping the opposition and capping the flags unopposed.

You could look at this argument in detail I guess. How large is the flag capping radius compared to the radius of a BW/Sorc AoE? If you spread a party of 5 (to be generous, 10 if I want to be bloody-minded) optimally through the flag capping area, how much does it lessen the impact of AoE.

I'm not gonna look at those numbers, because my feeling is that most RvR skills/mistakes (being slow to switch assist targets, not running away quickly enough, healing the wrong person) don't instantly kill me, whereas "clumping together", which is just one more RvR mistake, kills everyone. Why should the game be biased this way towards AoE damage classes?

 

[Leel]

Well, to be fair, destro got one more knockback, it's the morale 1 ability on the squig herder. Single target 65ft range. Still doesn't make it even.

 

[Shike]

While I do think BW's need a tonedown I also think Sorcs need a tonedown aswell. Or, other classes need better means to counter casterdamage. If casters are gonna keep their current damage then they should at least move some utility from them to other classes that need it more. Atm casters arent really glasscannons, they are more like army swiss knives which imo is quite wrong.

I cant see why casters have AoEroot, knockbacks or why BW have a healerdebuff etc. Its idiocy to overpower the archetype so other classes become grey in comparison, casters truly are the warlocks of WAR as it is now. Complete easymode and most already know this and thats a big reason to the huge influx of BW's and Sorcs in the lower tiers, its getting sillyer every day atm, at least on Azgal but I can imagine its pretty much the same everywhere. BWs and Sorcs probably make up for a majority of the played classes in the scenarios and then.. something is simply wrong.

The way WAR is turning atm isnt good for the game at all, casters are too easy to play and their damage combined with utility while not gamebreaking isnt really at its right level. I mean.. casters in their current form isnt hard to play with, at all. Whats so hard with standing in a place, popping out quickly to unleash hell on someone at range and then pop back into safety? Any average player can do that with the tools they have at their disposal, any average player cant really play a tank with that ease though, nor can they contribute to a fight with same impact as a bunch of sorcs or BWs can.. It's not strange that casters are FoTM, people have always been drawn to easymode. WAR atm feels abit too much like DAoC did just when TOA came out, when casters was on crack with 25% damageincrease and castspeed and crocmode etc. I understood then why people who wanted to play tanks cried, same now really.. I understand the whines over casters in general. BW take alil more heat atm but thats mainly due to some imbalanced abilitys which they shouldnt have at all in the first place.

Order really need that proper damagetank though, or Order will be screwed over when casters are nerfed, I dont think its a question of if, its more a question of when as I see it. Ofc all easymodelovers out there will cry and claim their BW or Sorc is fine.. balanced, glasscannon thats hard to survive with.. etc.. I know, Warlocks said the same things back in the days, its just history repeating itself once again here. I dont blame those who want their easymode, Mythic gave us that and well.. Its Mythic that is at fault, I just hope they act quickly, people are actually leaving WAR atm and thats kinda bad since I like the game overall, its a new game and ofc there will be balancingproblems, I just think people are more picky nowadays and quicker to judge a game, its 2008 now and many of us have seen games come and go now and ofc our ribbon is raised, its natural. Mythic dont have alot of time to adjust and improve the game as they had with DAoC, people demand more nowadays which I guess is good in some ways, bad in other ways since I believe a MMO take time to mature and balance and shape up properly. Its only been a month yet and Mythic have so far dealth with fixes mainly while monitoring the games evolvement and we'll see what 1.1 gives us. If they acknowledge the common problems and fix them, they have won alot of gamers, if they leave some things be for months people will just bugger off to WoW again or try other alternatives.