A Discussion

[Davejohnson]

i think the ultimate responsibility lies at Mythic, for still only focusing on 'Massive battles' regarding balance/changes, even after the game have evolved during 4-5 years. how can players get engaged in 'realm rvr' when the game itself cant handle the stress those battles generates, and causes entire zones and servers to crash? and thats not even mentioning the lag/fps-lag..


now i realize this comment is a bit offtopic, but im convinced that it is one of the reasons players in daoc have gone from a realm-spirit to a realmpoint- or 'me'-spirit.


just ask yourself why these AC raids have been a problem? in a daoc where you play "as you are supposed to do", beeing on relic-hunts should be FUN. it should not be considered as a drag in any way. if daoc worked as it was and still is intended by mythic, AC raids would contribute to the health of a server rather then the opposite.


edit: oh and i also have to do the: i also blame casters(damage) for zergfights not working properly in this game. just compare OF zergs to nowadays ones, back then you actually had a 'fight' since there were *shocker* tanks in the zergs.

 

[Takitothemacs]

What would be nice is if just once Requiel acknowledged the fact that the community for the most part are up in arms at the decision(s) that GOA made and that in doing so admitted that they made a bad call in some of their decision making and that subsequently no decision would be made that was outside the written and published rules and codes of conduct and henceforth GOA and or their representatives will not hide behind a catch all comment or notion such as SOTG.

Over to you Requiel...

 

[IainC]

What would be nice is if just once Requiel acknowledged the fact that the community for the most part are up in arms at the decision(s) that GOA made and that in doing so admitted that they made a bad call in some of their decision making and that subsequently no decision would be made that was outside the written and published rules and codes of conduct and henceforth GOA and or their representatives will not hide behind a catch all comment or notion such as SOTG.

Over to you Requiel...

It's self evident that part of the community disagree with the decision we took. I don't see that we need to 'admit' to that as it's clear to see. It would be like 'admitting' that the sky is blue. I will reiterate that we don't make decisions based on mob rule. If there's a ruling to take that will be unpopular no matter which line we take, we don't limit ourselves to the path of least resistance, the choice that will generate the least complaints. We take the decision that we believe is the right one. Sometimes the community is more important than the game, other times it isn't.

Your second point is not going to happen. It's neither possible nor desirable to have a complete and exhaustive list of every single situation that could possibly be against the rules. We will always reserve the right to interpret our ToS and our policies as we feel is appropriate.

 

[Takitothemacs]

We take the decision that we believe is the right one. Sometimes the community is more important than the game, other times it isn't.

Therein lies your biggest problem... you have lost sight of what is truly important... this is a MMORPG and by route that means for the MM part of that to work there has to be numbers of Players (i.e. community) your insistence that you are right and the community is wrong is killing the Dyvet cluster and through that your job will soon be redundant. If you really wanted to change career so bad you could always just resign... I'm sure we would all pat you on the back and welcome with open arms someone who actually gave a shit about the servers and the community upon which GOA has reaped the financial reward for so long.

When something has been done wrong we don't expect for you to bow to mob rule... but when you insist on quoting what is or is not in the spirit of the game we would expect you to listen to those who actually make the spirit of the game, the players, the community.

As for it not being possible or desirable to have a full set of rules... fine... but try to at least be consistent in the judgements you make.

Anyway just wanted to see if you actually had the balls to stand up and say you made a mistake... apparently not.

 

[Rigga Mortice]

*snip*
I really.. REALLY doubt that they would have complied. Because that´s exactly what they didn´t want to hear. I think they would have bitten the bullet, saying something along: "well then, so be it, suspend us if you have to", playing their new role as martyrs and getting the reason they were looking for in order to leave the server. (Note, the last sentence is not meant to be a personal attack or flame. It´s just a pretty overbooked view of the incident and its aftermath). Basically, they provoked the schism we got now, by driving their position to the extreme....
*snip*

Thank you for offering to be TTs/BFs spokesperson, we would however point out that the above is your opinion only, based on rumour, and utterly wrong. Whatever method you are obviously using to divine people's thoughts, it needs re-calibrating, because nothing would please us more than being able to play our the characters on this cluster we've put so much time into again. Truth be told, we never thought it would actually cause as big a fuss as it has done with people recieving suspensions.

If you feel the need to speak on our behalf again, don't call us, we'll call you.

 

[Gibbo]

It's self evident that part of the community disagree with the decision we took. I don't see that we need to 'admit' to that as it's clear to see. It would be like 'admitting' that the sky is blue. I will reiterate that we don't make decisions based on mob rule. If there's a ruling to take that will be unpopular no matter which line we take, we don't limit ourselves to the path of least resistance, the choice that will generate the least complaints. We take the decision that we believe is the right one. Sometimes the community is more important than the game, other times it isn't.

Your second point is not going to happen. It's neither possible nor desirable to have a complete and exhaustive list of every single situation that could possibly be against the rules. We will always reserve the right to interpret our ToS and our policies as we feel is appropriate.

It's self evident also that the actions taken by GOA have had a negative effect on the cluster that it may not recover from. I would have thought whatever decision you take has to be for the good of the cluster and not the other way around.

The whole AC Raid/TT keep thing would have blown over after a few days and the cluster would have carried on as before. Communities have a way of policing themselves without heavy handed interventions.

 

[Cromcruaich]

It's self evident that part of the community disagree with the decision we took. I don't see that we need to 'admit' to that as it's clear to see. It would be like 'admitting' that the sky is blue. I will reiterate that we don't make decisions based on mob rule. If there's a ruling to take that will be unpopular no matter which line we take, we don't limit ourselves to the path of least resistance, the choice that will generate the least complaints. We take the decision that we believe is the right one. Sometimes the community is more important than the game, other times it isn't.

Your second point is not going to happen. It's neither possible nor desirable to have a complete and exhaustive list of every single situation that could possibly be against the rules. We will always reserve the right to interpret our ToS and our policies as we feel is appropriate.

And what is your response to the suggestion that you could of handled it better personally? That suspension without warning wasnt suitable, where it wasnt clear the the CoC had been breached. Why did you not try and talk directly to TT before handing out suspensions? Have you lost sight of what a GM should do in game? Or is managing situations in a friendly manner and respecting your player base not part of your remit?

 

[Cromcruaich]

The whole AC Raid/TT keep thing would have blown over after a few days and the cluster would have carried on as before. Communities have a way of policing themselves without heavy handed interventions.

Precisely.

 

[Thorwyn]

Thank you for offering to be TTs/BFs spokesperson, we would however point out that the above is your opinion only, based on rumour, and utterly wrong

I explicitly stated that this was MY interpretation and I never claimed to be any sort of "spokesman" for whomever except for myself.
And I don´t need your or anyone elses permission to express my points of view about anything. Any more questions?
Thank you.

 

[Cromcruaich]

What do the people who were against the TT action think, I guess within the small world that is FH Muy, Kin and Kagato are the main protagonists. Are they happy at the outcome and do they think it was a fair action to hand out at the time in retrospect? Or would a more subtle approach from English GM's to get the same ultimate outcome (a l10 keep) of been better for the cluster in retrospect?

Actually thats a thought, what happened with the keep, did it just stay at l1 with TT claiming it after the suspensions?

 

[Conway]

It seems to me that GOA would need the wisdom of Solomon to deal with Dyvet which is a pretty divided community in an increasingly small goldfish bowl. I took a walk just before the TT incident because of exactly the divisions that Requiel mentioned so I'm reading this from a rather emotionally detached viewpoint. I take an interest because I'm now playing somewhere far more friendly, and I'm reluctant to again get involved in a gaming community with such an amount of conflict. Personally I think this forum, and the style of debate taking part on it, has caused some of the problems. When you have abusive posts telling people to play your way or leave, some of them do exactly that, and although you may then dance and celebrate it probably doesn't help the population.

People got very excited about the TT incident. It was quite a long time ago. It is still at the point where people get offended at a post containing the word 'they'. That seems an over reaction.

Initially I was rather on the side of the TT martyrs, but after reading all the debate I am less so.

As I understand it some people supported TT's actions, clearly some did not and there were messages in game. There is a difference between releasing a keep with a relic in as a protest, and deliberately holding it at level 1 when other guilds are saying they want to claim it and raise the level. Releasing the keep would have made a statement and I believe would have been no problem. Dropping it to level 1 and refusing to release it was obviously going to get controversial. It imposed their views on the rest of their realm. I can imagine people got a little excited on both sides. There were complaints to rightnow which I would guess included chat logs, and those chat logs would be a very large factor in actions taken. GOA can hardly break their confidentiality rules and disclose those chat logs to justify their actions or they would be open to a whole different set of criticism.

Game rules can't be written according to the situation on one cluster in isolation. One set of players can't decide those rules, it has to be done by GOA. As a company they have to take into account all the servers and all the players views equally, regardless of age, background, and whether they post on forums or not.

AC raid problems seem to be a realm balance/under population issue. As such, I think it would best be handled by a mechanism that adjusts the guard population at relic shrines according to the balance of people online. People can then attack at any hour they want to play, but it wouldn't be a walk in the park. As a game design issue this possibly has to be done by or agreed by Mythic rather than GOA. If they do not have this issue causing strong emotion on US servers Mythic may not be deeply interested in events on Dyvet. You may have to live with this one.

 

[joap]

But would that have changed anything about the TT actions? As I understand it, the decision from TT was meant to be a statement against the AC raiders as well as GoA. By lowering the keep to 1, they more or less forced GoA to take a stance (because the resulting RightNow complains were obvious), either for or against their actions.

GoAs actions were not forced in the least bit IMO. It was unecessary intervention IMO.

Even is the relic was taken back due to the keep being at lvl 1, the night time crew could easily take it back in 2 or 3 days and have it in one of their keeps at lvl 10. And TT could scream/do whatever tehy wanted for nothing...

 

[Sharkith]

Folks and Conway,

To be honest Conway you have some very good balanced points but each of those have been covered many times here. My reaction to the 'they' comment can be explained with reference to the term 'othering'. If you want to understand my reaction you have to understand that my background will make me very sensitive to terms like this and I will react to them especially in such a situation. Requiel was using a classical 'othering' technique as he has been doing for some time here.

You have to ask yourself why this is the case. On that point I am sorry but I have put another essay together

Just give it time, it is to the guys left here I hope you guys take a close look.

 

[Sharkith]

To the rest of you my honest advice to you is if you open your eyes you will see your being sold short here.

In this situation you have the players on one side who have reached an understanding with each other that things got out of hand. I can see in this thread genuine admissions and agreements from people I was diagramatically opposed to in the whole sorry affair. Muly, Kagato and Kinetix I can see all agree that using the game to grief others is a very bad thing to do.

Respect to you guys for being honest. I also respect you for your consistency where you have held true to it. Kagato I might have been hostile to you on here but you do stick to your guns and respect for that.

As for GOA and Requiel. It is completely remarkable that in all of this the so called 'mob' to quote Requiel above are the ones that moved on. The ones not moving on and willing to reach an accommodation are the ones we paid to help us enjoy the game. Not once have the English team at GOA tried to work with the views of the playerbase.

Instead they have arbitrated for one section of the community against another when they never had to.

Griefing involves finding out about the intention of the player and then arbitrating around that. GOA refused to even come clean about their definition because they were never really interested in engaging with us. They did this as a stunt to try and dump the blame for the whole thing at our feet.

What would have made this easier for people like me to just leave it and try to work with them?

1) Admit there is a possibility that something might be wrong and that someone might be manipulating the game mechanics systematically.

To be fair Requiel came close to this when he admitted there was an anti-social element but he did not then commit to try and engage with us to either try and dispel the rumors or try to alleviate the effects.

He did nothing other than say that GOA would do nothing. He dug his first trench around the idea that GOA would not act where people are just playing the game. All he had to do was share information with us and try to stimulate open and free discussion within the community. This discussion is not open as Vodkafairy and others are smart enough to note. It is constrained because Requiel won't engage beyond reiterating his own narrow position, he is not willing to see his position be put up for grabs and that is dishonest. He should have helped us by trying to alleviate any myths and get people to see if this was a real phenomenon and where it was real to guide them to a solution that accomodated everyone.

2) In the argument he should have acknowledged that BOTH sides of the debate might have had some legitimacy to show he understood the problem

They should have got on with working with the views rather than telling one group of people they were wrong and that their feelings were illegitimate. Throughout this whole thread all he has done is constantly repeat the same old stance without thinking. He dug his second trench around being afraid to admit that sometimes things can go a bit wrong.

If you start working with a community you must first believe that community can resolve its own problems. You should never arbitrate if you are serious about getting people to work things out.

Requiel defined one element of this community as a 'they'. He then goes on two posts later to insinuate that 'they' are a 'mob'. Now he might come back at this and say I am reading into his words. Well don't fucking use those words then! Try communicating with people instead of at them and maybe then you will see that people listen and respond. You are responsible for what you say and if you cannot stand with people then be very careful about pretending your here to help. Can you see this yet?

I feel he has very little respect for this community. If he has it does not show at all in these posts. If he did have that respect he would communicate as an equal and he would come out from behind his trenches and and hold open the possibility that he might have got it wrong. The irony is most of us would then go on to admit he probably could have done very little else in the circumstances.

One last point.
One thing your all missing and one thing you all should think very carefully about as a group. There are people here who are on Avalon. They play on a different server ran by the same company.

Now why dont' you ask those people just how good the GM's on Avalon are?

Ask them how active they are and how friendly these GM's seem to be.

Ask them if your getting the same service. You pay the same money after all.

You are entitled to ask about your service and here is your chance to compare the product across servers....

 

[Imgormiel]

To the rest of you my honest advice to you is if you open your eyes you will see your being sold short here.

In this situation you have the players on one side who have reached an understanding with each other that things got out of hand. I can see in this thread genuine admissions and agreements from people I was diagramatically opposed to in the whole sorry affair. Muly, Kagato and Kinetix I can see all agree that using the game to grief others is a very bad thing to do.

Respect to you guys for being honest. I also respect you for your consistency where you have held true to it. Kagato I might have been hostile to you on here but you do stick to your guns and respect for that.

As for GOA and Requiel. It is completely remarkable that in all of this the so called 'mob' to quote Requiel above are the ones that moved on. The ones not moving on and willing to reach an accommodation are the ones we paid to help us enjoy the game. Not once have the English team at GOA tried to work with the views of the playerbase.

Instead they have arbitrated for one section of the community against another when they never had to.

Griefing involves finding out about the intention of the player and then arbitrating around that. GOA refused to even come clean about their definition because they were never really interested in engaging with us. They did this as a stunt to try and dump the blame for the whole thing at our feet.

What would have made this easier for people like me to just leave it and try to work with them?

1) Admit there is a possibility that something might be wrong and that someone might be manipulating the game mechanics systematically.

To be fair Requiel came close to this when he admitted there was an anti-social element but he did not then commit to try and engage with us to either try and dispel the rumors or try to alleviate the effects.

He did nothing other than say that GOA would do nothing. He dug his first trench around the idea that GOA would not act where people are just playing the game. All he had to do was share information with us and try to stimulate open and free discussion within the community. This discussion is not open as Vodkafairy and others are smart enough to note. It is constrained because Requiel won't engage beyond reiterating his own narrow position, he is not willing to see his position be put up for grabs and that is dishonest. He should have helped us by trying to alleviate any myths and get people to see if this was a real phenomenon and where it was real to guide them to a solution that accomodated everyone.

2) In the argument he should have acknowledged that BOTH sides of the debate might have had some legitimacy to show he understood the problem

They should have got on with working with the views rather than telling one group of people they were wrong and that their feelings were illegitimate. Throughout this whole thread all he has done is constantly repeat the same old stance without thinking. He dug his second trench around being afraid to admit that sometimes things can go a bit wrong.

If you start working with a community you must first believe that community can resolve its own problems. You should never arbitrate if you are serious about getting people to work things out.

Requiel defined one element of this community as a 'they'. He then goes on two posts later to insinuate that 'they' are a 'mob'. Now he might come back at this and say I am reading into his words. Well don't fucking use those words then! Try communicating with people instead of at them and maybe then you will see that people listen and respond. You are responsible for what you say and if you cannot stand with people then be very careful about pretending your here to help. Can you see this yet?

I feel he has very little respect for this community. If he has it does not show at all in these posts. If he did have that respect he would communicate as an equal and he would come out from behind his trenches and and hold open the possibility that he might have got it wrong. The irony is most of us would then go on to admit he probably could have done very little else in the circumstances.

One last point.
One thing your all missing and one thing you all should think very carefully about as a group. There are people here who are on Avalon. They play on a different server ran by the same company.

Now why dont' you ask those people just how good the GM's on Avalon are?

Ask them how active they are and how friendly these GM's seem to be.

Ask them if your getting the same service. You pay the same money after all.You are entitled to ask about your service and here is your chance to compare the product across servers....

They are, I saw it first hand last week while at GOA HQ. You would be surprised at the level they do care.

 

[Sharkith]

They are, I saw it first hand last week while at GOA HQ. You would be surprised at the level they do care.

Why doesn't that show here then? We are listening but no-one seems to be listening to us.

 

[Gahn]

They are, I saw it first hand last week while at GOA HQ. You would be surprised at the level they do care.

If they do care they clearly ain't showing it, be it down to lack of communication or taking wrong stances and keep banging heads on a wall.
We had 5-6 problems on Avalon so far, all solved within minutes. There's pretty much always a GM even at late night.
Never been the same on English Servers (since Kemor left i might add)

 

[Imgormiel]

Why doesn't that show here then? We are listening but no-one seems to be listening to us.

The difference is mate, I went for a job interview at GOA HQ last week - applying for two jobs. And fyi I've just been told via email that I didn't get any of the positions I applied for which is why I am speaking freely. I met Req and saw first hand at what he does in his job. It's pretty much a thankless task but one that requires absolute passion for his job.

I saw all of his chars on his char screen and yes there are 3 level 100's - although you will never physically see them as they are invisible to you with other abilities that no player will have - and no his whole char boot screen is not full unlike some peeps. He watches over you guys from morning to night. As do the rest of the GOA GM's on any server you care to mention - I met them all.

I can tell you whole heartedly that any decision he makes is not taken lightly. He's a bright bulb that loves daoc and the excal/pryd community.

The thing is, i can say what i saw because i was there and seen it first hand what he does, his job holds him back from speaking freely as he is the responsible voice for GOA along with other English GM's and community managers.

The service you get from any CM/GM is the same, Req speaks for you guys, although the whole team mucks in with regard to translations of the game with each patch and works hard as a team with each project. The service you get is the same because they work as team. They have to - there's only 100 of them that work at GOA. Surprising but true.

 

[Imgormiel]

If they do care they clearly ain't showing it, be it down to lack of communication or taking wrong stances and keep banging heads on a wall.
We had 5-6 problems on Avalon so far, all solved within minutes. There's pretty much always a GM even at late night.
Never been the same on English Servers (since Kemor left i might add)

IIRC Req starts work at a pretty flexible time, as does Xalin. And no, none of them sit there in suits while playing daoc, that would be just a little too cool

 

[Davejohnson]

 

[Belgorian]

One last point.
One thing your all missing and one thing you all should think very carefully about as a group. There are people here who are on Avalon. They play on a different server ran by the same company.

Now why dont' you ask those people just how good the GM's on Avalon are?

Ask them how active they are and how friendly these GM's seem to be.

Ask them if your getting the same service. You pay the same money after all.

You are entitled to ask about your service and here is your chance to compare the product across servers....

On a personal note, I have always found the help and support of the GM'S to be excellent on this server. I really cant understand what you are trying to achieve by posting this??? Or maybe I can.

________________________
Belgorian LVL50 Armsman
RR9L6-Guildmaster of LOE and
thoroughly nice chap!!

 

[Darzil]

Actually thats a thought, what happened with the keep, did it just stay at l1 with TT claiming it after the suspensions?

Stayed at level 1, and the attackers broke through the defenders, managed to take the keep, but got defeated at the relic room, so the keep was retaken. Then another guild claimed it and raised the level.

Darzil

 

[Cromcruaich]

Stayed at level 1, and the attackers broke through the defenders, managed to take the keep, but got defeated at the relic room, so the keep was retaken. Then another guild claimed it and raised the level.

Darzil

Thats what I thought. So the perceived offence that was committed wasn't even rectified. The problem was the action of dropping a keep to level 1 and not the effect of dropping a keep to level 1. And for that suspensions we're handed out. This to me makes it blatantly obvious that the punishment didnt fit the 'crime'.

 

[pip]

I am on the blink of cancelling my 2 subs is LOTM going to be worth investing in? with Dyvet server being the way it is? i have spent to much time on my account to start somewhere else game is about fun that as pritty much died for me now. Reg attitude in this thread hasn't help man or beast. I wonder why i should pay is wages anymore, if he don't care why should we? lets face it Dyvet server is fooking dead now.

 

[Cromcruaich]

I am on the blink of cancelling my 2 subs is LOTM going to be worth investing in? with Dyvet server being the way it is? i have spent to much time on my account to start somewhere else game is about fun that as pritty much died for me now. Reg attitude in this thread hasn't help man or beast. I wonder why i should pay is wages anymore, if he don't care why should we? lets face it Dyvet server is fooking dead now.

I'm certainly not buying LotM.

 

[Imgormiel]

I'm certainly not buying LotM.

Doubt i will be at this time either. No job = no money to spend = no internet thus pointless

 

[Septina]

On a personal note, I have always found the help and support of the GM'S to be excellent on this server.

Compared to?

 

[Darzil]

lets face it Dyvet server is fooking dead now.

Not for me, which is why I'm still here. The guild I'm in is probably at the highest point of any guild I've been in since WoW came out and the old one's numbers dropped (I'm not naturally a guildhopper, on my 4th guild in 4+ years, 1st less than 24 hours, the 4th is pretty much the same people as the 3rd, and most of them were also in the 2nd. I know a few people now in RvR and can (sometimes) get groups when I fancy that. When I've led Artie/ML raids they've worked well recently.

If it's dead and no fun for you, don't ask here if you should play or not. All I can suggest doing is sitting back and trying to work out what it is you want from your time, then doing that. Maybe you then leave, maybe you then stay, maybe you change the way you play, or the amount you play. That should be up to you, though.

Darzil

 

[Sharkith]

On a personal note, I have always found the help and support of the GM'S to be excellent on this server. I really cant understand what you are trying to achieve by posting this??? Or maybe I can.

Belgorian and Imgormiel,

I can see what your driving at but I will stick by that comment for very real reasons. Its quite simple.

FH now has a playerbase stretched from a UK server (Dyvet) to a German server (Avalon) and even to Mythic servers (US). The UK community if it is smart can benefit from the fact that its player base is no longer isolated and situated in one place. It can benefit by comparing experiences elsewhere and by asking what are without doubt very very uncomfortable questions of the people who provide that service.

Who knows. What happens if you find out that in fact people have a better service elsewhere? Doesn't that help you ask the right questions about your own experience? Rather than complain about people remaining posting here as some have done (not you guys of course), wouldn't you see it as a great chance to put some pressure and to try and have things put right?

When I could get hold of the English team they were always great. However there were also lots of times when they were needed and I could not get them. If you look around you you will see that others do seem to have different experiences. Some will be good some will be bad.

Don't you see the chance you have to get to know more about your product as a consumer?

Sometimes when you look on VN boards and browse around you find that in fact the problems you experience are quite common problems. Its a problem of game design sometimes. You also notice that the problems you had have been dealt with differently sometimes better and of course sometimes less well. Where it is better you can demand better (as I have done here) where it is less good you can congratulate the people working for you (which you will find I do when I feel it is good).

Knowing you have others here to talk to makes you less inclined to be forced to have to accept things as they are.

edit: I should add that this service is experienced differently on other servers ran by the same company. Ask yourself why that might be?

 

[pip]

Not for me, which is why I'm still here. The guild I'm in is probably at the highest point of any guild I've been in since WoW came out and the old one's numbers dropped (I'm not naturally a guildhopper, on my 4th guild in 4+ years, 1st less than 24 hours, the 4th is pretty much the same people as the 3rd, and most of them were also in the 2nd. I know a few people now in RvR and can (sometimes) get groups when I fancy that. When I've led Artie/ML raids they've worked well recently.

If it's dead and no fun for you, don't ask here if you should play or not. All I can suggest doing is sitting back and trying to work out what it is you want from your time, then doing that. Maybe you then leave, maybe you then stay, maybe you change the way you play, or the amount you play. That should be up to you, though.

Darzil

Your guild like mine is prob getting big due to the rest of the guilds dying like today i click social 18 in my guild 24 on in alliance