A Discussion

[Davejohnson]

Play the game in the spirit and manner in which it's meant to be played..

where can i find this information

 

[Nate]

The sotg is not written down in full detail anywhere, it is a rule they can use when they don't have a rule for the problem.

 

[Sharkith]

It has to be divorced from the situation. The later example was simply to illustrate the absurdity of the arguments from the people who supported TT's action based on their dislike of AC raids. Our point all along was that this was nothing to do with AC raids and everything to do with a small group of people trampling over the rights of the rest of their realm. Whether you agree or disagree with AC raiding isn't important, their action has to be considered without that as a distraction.

Requiel,

first of all I think you are now much clearer. However your position is completely contradictory. Not only is it contradictory but you now seriously risk offending people.

Dropping a keep to level 1 is as legitimate an in game action as taking a keep. No matter if there is a relic inside or not. If a guild owns that keep it can do what it likes. There is no rule in the game or the CoC that states you have to hand the keep to another guild. You are not blocking your realm mates from defending since they can defend. Not only this but you are now saying that dropping the keep to level 1 is in fact grief play.

I believe that the community created a problem which spiralled out of proportion. This is mostly due to some very divisive attitudes on the server which is why I created this thread in the first place. There was no griefing but people were reacting as if there was. This led to a rapidly deteriorating spiral effect.

So now your telling us this is something we made up in our heads. That we were wrong and that we are the problem? I cannot think of a worse outcome of this discussion Requiel. I will have to consider this before deciding what I am going to do right now you just lost two more accounts.

 

[Cylian]

glad I'm an EX-customer.

 

[Tuthmes]

Requiel,

first of all I think you are now much clearer. However your position is completely contradictory. Not only is it contradictory but you now seriously risk offending people.

Dropping a keep to level 1 is as legitimate an in game action as taking a keep. No matter if there is a relic inside or not. If a guild owns that keep it can do what it likes. There is no rule in the game or the CoC that states you have to hand the keep to another guild. You are not blocking your realm mates from defending since they can defend. Not only this but you are now saying that dropping the keep to level 1 is in fact grief play.

Indeed, this is the problem that needs tobe answered. Think Reza made quite a few good posts about this aswell, in the original thread.

 

[IainC]

Dropping a keep to level 1 is as legitimate an in game action as taking a keep. No matter if there is a relic inside or not. If a guild owns that keep it can do what it likes. There is no rule in the game or the CoC that states you have to hand the keep to another guild. You are not blocking your realm mates from defending since they can defend. Not only this but you are now saying that dropping the keep to level 1 is in fact grief play.

Not true. Are you honestly stating that dropping a keep to level 1 does not impact your ream's ability to defend?

So now your telling us this is something we made up in our heads. That we were wrong and that we are the problem? I cannot think of a worse outcome of this discussion Requiel. I will have to consider this before deciding what I am going to do right now you just lost two more accounts.

No I'm not saying that at all. What I'm saying is that divisive attitudes on the server led to a breakdown in the situation. I'm not talking about the TT incident here but about the whole mindset where people percieved that they were being 'griefed' by AC raids and even further back. Both sides are equally guilty of fostering this divisiveness, I'm not singling any particular faction out here. The continued and widespread intolerance and antagonism led to a situation where any spark would set off instant drama. The community divided itself long before the TT incident, those attitudes turned what would otherwise have been pretty much a non-problem into major point of contention.

I'm calling it as I'm seeing it here, I'm sorry if that offends you.

 

[Imgormiel]

Accept the rules of the game and play by them, rules are rules, like them or not, they will be enforced and you must accept that will be the norm - else stop playing and find a pve game that requires cheats to do what you need to do.

 

[Imgormiel]

where can i find this information

Read the acceptance of playing when you boot the game??

 

[Belisar]

Dropping a keep to level 1 which does not have a relic in it but is done to allow or remove iRvR (we have seen both) affects the whole realm. Req says that anything that affects the whole realm comes under their SotG rule but a keep without a relic in it does not. Sorry I am confused... which is it ?

Actually it does not matter in all honesty.

Fact is GOA should be taking steps to keep the game open, fun and interesting for as many people as possible. That keeps their cash coming in and keeps us customers happy.

AC raids (perhaps out of prime time raids) enable a small number of players to adversely impact on the game for alb, mid and hib players. Blindly using a small set of rules which do not cater for the circumstances is pointless. People need to pull their heads out of the sand and have some original thought.

Treat the cause not just the symptoms.

 

[Belisar]

The community divided itself long before the TT incident, those attitudes turned what would otherwise have been pretty much a non-problem into major point of contention.

I'm calling it as I'm seeing it here, I'm sorry if that offends you.

And it seems an awful lot of posters see it another way.

It is not a non-problem. AC raids have been a problem for some time and sooner or later they would become a major point of contention.

If you admit the community clearly divided itself long before the TT incident then I am bemused as to why you would think it was a non-problem. The non-problem was the form of protest TT made. The problem grew as a result of the action GOA took which had no precedent and seems to have gone against the feelings of so many players.

I guess this is going to go on and on.

Whatever your point of view and whatever anyone elses the fact remains that AC raids and the response of GOA to the TT incident has screwed the server. GOA are realistically the only ones who can even try to do something to resolve the situation. Be nice to spend some time thinking about that.

 

[Sharkith]

Forget it. Subs cancelled I am not coming back. I wish you guys all the best.

 

[Dard]

Not true. Are you honestly stating that dropping a keep to level 1 does not impact your ream's ability to defend?

Did it have that much of an impact on Albions ability to defend ?

 

[Davejohnson]

Read the acceptance of playing when you boot the game??

does the acceptance describe how i am allowed to play this game? =)

 

[Tuthmes]

Not true. Are you honestly stating that dropping a keep to level 1 does not impact your ream's ability to defend?

Still doesnt answer the question why you can drop the level of a keep/tower. Anyways are you honestly stating that the ability of hibs/mids beeing unable to defend at early hours is their problem and that they should life with it?

 

[Aerendur]

There really is no point to any discussion when one side is completely able to make up what is allowed and what is not.. (and especially when that side will not back up their choices)

Requiel states that capturing and regaining relics night after night without the normal population to have a to chance defend is all fine with the rules. Since you are able to attack a keep at those times, that is what the game is about.

Yet another part that is a possibility in the game, lowering a keep. Is suddenly against the rules.

There is absolutely no reason to distinguish the two situations. You hide behind the grey area called griefplay but responses here have shown you people do feel grieved. And that is what the word means, not the twist you are trying to give it.

 

[charmangle]

Accept the rules of the game and play by them, rules are rules, like them or not, they will be enforced and you must accept that will be the norm - else stop playing and find a pve game that requires cheats to do what you need to do.

Could you please explain to me what the rules are then?
Since Requiel seems to have choosen only to answere the questions from Sharkit about this...

I would like to get answeres to the rules questions I posted earlier...and to be honest I dont even think GoA themselves know the answeres, yet...but as a customer that are supposed to follow these rules it would be fun to be get someone to answere what they are...

/charmangle

 

[IainC]

Could you please explain to me what the rules are then?
Since Requiel seems to have choosen only to answere the questions from Sharkit about this...

I would like to get answeres to the rules questions I posted earlier...and to be honest I dont even think GoA themselves know the answeres, yet...but as a customer that are supposed to follow these rules it would be fun to be get someone to answere what they are...

/charmangle

Charmangle, I answered your questions here.

 

[Kagato]

Just stop being childish Kagato, we are talking about a principle (what's the line that's drawn to affect others/griefing their rights in game).
So let's stop bsing about the relic and let's try to discuss from a Rule perspective.
Also u don't talk (conveniently i'd say) of the OF incident.

I fail to see whats childish about highlighting a fact that no relic was involved in the crim incident, or is your definition of a childish response basically anything that you disagree with?

As for the old frontiers incident, I fail to see how it is relivent at all. No action was taken that impacted on any realms ability to defend or against anyones own realm. Mids stole a relic from hibs and dropped it at an albion ATK.

They won the relic fair and square and chose to do with it what they wanted, theres no rule saying you have to take a relic back to your own keep. Your perfectly within your rights to steal a relic from us Albs and go drop it at bledmeer front door if you want to. You did the work, you earned the relic its yours to do with that you want, there might even be a tactical reason for doing so, like mids taking a relic from Albion and giving it back to the hibs to weaken albs. The key point is they are not acting against their own realm, they are not being traitors or making it harder for their own realm mates to defend.
Just like in the old frontiers incident, the relic did not belong to the mids in the first place, it was albions merlin staff if I remember correctly, mids took it from hibs and dropped it at albs ATK. They did nothing to betray their own realm, they simply weakend the hibs for a short time and had the fun of the bragging value.

 

[Oneeyedjack]

I disagree. I believe that the community created a problem which spiralled out of proportion. This is mostly due to some very divisive attitudes on the server which is why I created this thread in the first place. There was no griefing but people were reacting as if there was. This led to a rapidly deteriorating spiral effect.

No I'm not saying that at all. What I'm saying is that divisive attitudes on the server led to a breakdown in the situation. I'm not talking about the TT incident here but about the whole mindset where people percieved that they were being 'griefed' by AC raids and even further back. Both sides are equally guilty of fostering this divisiveness, I'm not singling any particular faction out here. The continued and widespread intolerance and antagonism led to a situation where any spark would set off instant drama. The community divided itself long before the TT incident, those attitudes turned what would otherwise have been pretty much a non-problem into major point of contention.

I'm calling it as I'm seeing it here, I'm sorry if that offends you.

:eek2:

Im stunned by the lack ability to try and solve this problem and mend the situation. If not by avoiding to alienate a huge part of the cluster playerbase
you should try and look on this by a business standpoint. On so many levels is this attitude extremly bad for business. A huge part of the cluster community already migrated to other servers or another company, but throwing rotten eggs after the last part of us that stayed in hope something would get better is being arrogant and downright offensive. But it sure makes my own future on the cluster perfectly clear. GOA dont respect me and a whole lot of other players, then I cant respect them. I have no choise left but to close my accounts.

 

[IainC]

And this is why it's hard to get a straight answer out of a GM - because when I give people a straight answer they twist it.

Oneeyedjack, if you want to interpret those words as me 'throwing rotten eggs at the people who stayed' then be my guest. It's about 180 degrees from what I said though.

I know this is a long thread and you may not have read all of it up to this point but you should we aware that we've already discussed what Goa can do about this (practically not a great deal). This isn't a situation that we at Goa can mend, it's a situation where the community can try to heal some of the rifts and this thread was intended to assist with that - again this was discussed early in the thread.

 

[charmangle]

Play the game in the spirit and manner in which it's meant to be played and you won't get into trouble. If your actions are likely to be controversial then you should take the time to think very carefully about what you are doing and whether there's an alternative. In most cases, there's no controversy and thus nothing to get concerned about. Most people I would think have the common sense to know when their actions are likely to draw comment.

Well, as person that often use that argument myself to my students, it usually works, with the "common sense rule". But when you are faced with some direct questions you should be able to answere them with a clear yes allowed or no not allowed.

And all those questions I asked are good questions, saying dont do it if you think it might be considered wrong is very hard on several of those questions.

It really could be considered as against the SoTG to release/lower a keep/tower in the middle of a raid. Is it legal until the intent is to disrupt the own realms efforts?

Is there a difference between different importance levels of a keep/tower? (Important port towers, Irvr keeps, relic gate dependant keeps, keeps with relics in them?)

Are you allowed to sucide with a relic on your person with the sole intent to give the relic to another realm?

Another good situation is when a Huge amount of guildmasters in Hibernia choose to in protest release their claimed towers/keeps at the same time, and by that action allowing for Albs to take the entire realm (which they/we did). They/we all stated it was with the sole intent of protesting. I would say that is against the SoTG, but would GoA?

These are in rvr quite common situations, actually until the ban, I argued that there was no way it could be considered a bannable offence to lower a relic keep. Based on the situation with AoDs lowering the Irvr keep.

To me, before this incident, it was very clear what was passing the line and what wouldnt be. But now it really isnt...as you said yourself its very grey area...and since the ruling it really needs clarifying...

Im not arguing as Sharkit, about AC raiding and the principle of Grief play etc, since that has already been established by you, its not hard to understand, its just a difference of opinion (and I happen to agree with you on this, even though I also think its arguable from Sharkits point too). But I do think your choice to punish the actions of TT, without making it clear that it would be considered against the Rules first. (even though I understand it probably was meant as a warning more than anything else, the principle of it opened up a can of worms)

Its getting to be a long post (per usual with me! But I do think these questions needs to be answered, so that we know where the line is in rvr. Alot of these actions are considered tactics and not clear enough to be left up to the "common sense rule".

/Charmangle

ps. And thanks for the answere! Hope you wount mind giving me abit more decicive answere though. But as I said before I do relieze that it might take some time, since any answere here would be setting a presedense also, and not so easy to undo if it gets out in the wrong way. ds.

 

[Cromcruaich]

it's a situation where the community can try to heal some of the rifts and this thread was intended to assist with that - again this was discussed early in the thread.

You are wrong, this is an issue between you and you're company, youve firmly by your actions made a decision about how you want people to play on duvet. You could of chosen a different path, but you didnt. You've persisted with the same stance after making a huge mistake, and now you're to far down the road to turn around. Frankly its a complete disaster, I cant imagine a way im which it could of been handled worse - handing out bans (sorry, suspensions) was totally inappropriate and sent a clear message (deliberately or accidently) to those who supported TTs actions, persistance in justifying that stance has simply exacerbated the situation to such a point where valued members of this community, and a fellow guild member who is much respected has quit the game.

:worthy: shark. I'm undecided yet what to do, if I wasn't tea total at the moment I probably would of cancelled tonight as well. It's only NFD GG1 commitments that are keeping me here. Still, I find myself in a morally ambigous state, and it's very tempting to quit. Ive closed one account as a start anyway.

 

[Succi]

In GoA's case I dont think they should have representatives on these forums, or at least I dont think they should engage in any debats - i.e strictly posting for 'info'.

As we can see here a GM's attempt to respond has only magnified a situation, regardless of the quality of arguement.

If communication over this issue was purely via right now im sure alot of people who have quit/moved elsewhere would have simply thought 'goa suck' but wouldn't have neccessarily left or quit.

:/

 

[Tuthmes]

And this is why it's hard to get a straight answer out of a GM - because when I give people a straight answer they twist it.

Oneeyedjack, if you want to interpret those words as me 'throwing rotten eggs at the people who stayed' then be my guest. It's about 180 degrees from what I said though.

I know this is a long thread and you may not have read all of it up to this point but you should we aware that we've already discussed what Goa can do about this (practically not a great deal). This isn't a situation that we at Goa can mend, it's a situation where the community can try to heal some of the rifts and this thread was intended to assist with that - again this was discussed early in the thread.

Àctually i can see that, but if you've read the posts made from last year, its clearly that this discussion has bin goin on for quite some time, with no outcome. People like Muyl, Kagato, Horner, CM, never have thought of healing this situation we're in. It's a playstyle thats perfectly legal, though lame and the larger (yes as shown by the poll) part of the community just has to put up with it.
Once acted on by TT by a perfectly legal action (unless you wanne explain to me why it isnt legal to lower a keep and if so why do we have to option todo so) to do something about it (what else can you do, talk to them?), they get reported and then banned.
The english cluster has died out. Mebbe not all left because of the AC'ing, but certainly a large part did. Yes, lots of hibs left after the AC/TT incident, to either US servers or Avalon (30+ alone at times in nfd guild/avalon) or even just quitted. This degrated the situation from there on out. Now you stand by that small minority and expect people to understand you?

This problem is not gonne solve itself by a good discussion amongst eachother. Just because kids will be kids, they will never have to balls to try to understand other peoples opinion, leave alone to consider them.
If you think this thread will bring people closer, think again Requiel.

 

[sneakies]

Crom has basically summed up the feelings for a few people and i am in agreement with him.


However i would like to pose a question.

1. What is this 'spirit of the game'?

Once you think of a suitable answer for this question please answer the following one;

2. Had GOA not intervened, would the situation imposed by Sollers have aided, or abetted this?


The reason i ask is simple. This all stems back to GOA's 'unfortunate' actions. Had you neglected to intervene and allowed things to run their course, you'd have had happier times.

 

[Tuthmes]

Crom has basically summed up the feelings for a few people and i am in agreement with him.


However i would like to pose a question.

1. What is this 'spirit of the game'?

Once you think of a suitable answer for this question please answer the following one;

2. Had GOA not intervened, would the situation imposed by Sollers have aided, or abetted this?


The reason i ask is simple. This all stems back to GOA's 'unfortunate' actions. Had you neglected to intervene and allowed things to run their course, you'd have had happier times.

1. See it from a realm vs realm perspective and anything's legal to do upon the other realms and can never be considered grief play. It should be called spirit of the realm, or to put short SotR. Not spirit of the game, as this apperantly doesnt exist.

2. Yes it would have bin better, but the english gm's much more prefer to see their cluster die with their hands tie'd behind their backs.

 

[Sharkith]

And this is why it's hard to get a straight answer out of a GM - because when I give people a straight answer they twist it.

Oneeyedjack, if you want to interpret those words as me 'throwing rotten eggs at the people who stayed' then be my guest. It's about 180 degrees from what I said though.

I know this is a long thread and you may not have read all of it up to this point but you should we aware that we've already discussed what Goa can do about this (practically not a great deal). This isn't a situation that we at Goa can mend, it's a situation where the community can try to heal some of the rifts and this thread was intended to assist with that - again this was discussed early in the thread.

Requiel,

I am going to respond to you once more and this is the end of it. You are talking to very highly educated indviduals here. If you don't recognise that and start to treat them with respect you will lose them. I am a published author of over 30 scientific articles in peer reviewed journals. I spent 9 years studying my subject at University. I know how to write, my peers know I know how to write. I also know how to read. Re-read your post it is ambiguous and extremely partisan in a situation that needs clarity and a balanced approach.

Your in the wrong here (as far as the clarity of the discussion goes) and it is nothing but extreme arrogance to blame us. You said 'they' in your post above - where I work that is a response that clearly shows you feel your dealing with a group that you do not associate with or even have any empathy for. It is your failure to be able to write and explain things clearly.

The onus is on you to be clear.

If you write something and people read it differently then in all likelihood you fucked up. 14 years as an academic has taught me that. Your last posts were extremely offensive. If you cannot see that then you need to take a very long hard look at yourself and the way you are defining us and speaking with us.

I have cancelled my subs and I am leaving. This is not a teenager or a 13 year old telling you this it is someone who is very well educated who knows when he is being treated badly. I gave you your chance but your inability to step out from behind your barricades has done it now.

Sharkith

 

[charmangle]

A couple of views...

The last couple of posts Ive seen here have been regarding an answere by Requiel, where he stated that the general view on Alarm Clock Relic Raids have been sqewed on our server. And that we as players magnifies a small to non problem.

Several posters here have reacted intencly at this, taking it as an insult...

Id just to interject here, that ofc your feelings on this are justifed. And it was not very well put. But please, take it in the meaning Im sure it was meant to be said.

What I choose to enterpret the comment as would be for Requiel to try and make us see that:
The game mechinics are not setup so that even if a realm has all 6 relics for a prolonged period of time, it will make it impossible for the other realms to compete or put up a fight. Even if a realm has taken all keeps in both the other 2 realms the game mechanics doesnt prevents the other 2 realms from going out and RvRing...

And to be honest, he is right on this. We HAVE been taken the whole relic thing ALOT to seriously. Now dont get me wrong, 3 power relics and 20% damage bonus is alot. Especially with all the gay wizards out there (or warlocks for that matter! But, its not the end of the game. Its not really a reason to stop playing, and differences in RAs makes a MUCH more effect on FG rvr than 20% added damage. And we choose to accept that differance every time we go out there. Well most of us that arent RR11 that is!

What I think Requiel is trying to get us to do, is to look at our own response and ask ourselves, if it is in proportion to the problem or the actual ingame effect.

And isnt he right here? Truly?

Now to Req, the problem with this afterthought though, and the reason we take it as an insult, is that it is comming now, and not 2 years ago.

Its to little to late.
We are seeing a hobby we have spend several hours on every day for 5-3 years, go down the drain. The reasons are many to why the game ended up here, but at this time, we just want it to last as long as possible. And we feel that at this time, with this population drop, the only way to keep the game fun for us, is if we can agree that we try to compete with eachother not the game.

It might be to late for major changes to the gamecode (like language based clients instead of servers, timecoded siege lvls etc), but when you say something that can be taken as an accusation that the decline of the server is our own fault at this point, it wount be taken in well. And dismissing the conserns people have about other players whos sole purpose of play is to grief us and the community as a whole, is just a bad way to go.

We understand why you cant go in and control the playstyle of some players, but what we dont understand is why you can go in and ban people for trying to do something about it ingame, with actions which im sure most people thought was within the CoC. And to us it seems like if you can do that, why cant you monitor the behaviour of those players who actually aim to destroy your product by antagonizing the playerbase? It just seems like, either you stay out of the ingame mechanics, or you get involved and do so in all clear cases of griefing.

In the end, it helps if we all try to see what a person means when he is posting, or atleast ask what the point was of a post, before we assume the worst. (I know im not always the best at this but hey theres always room for improvment)

I will have to consider this before deciding what I am going to do right now you just lost two more accounts.

Darnit Sharky!
You cant leave me hanging here! Ofc you cant throw in the towel just yet...the subject and or the discussion isnt over! Get in here and get dirty again, you never know where it might lead mate!

/Charmangle

ps. In the end, pretty much all of us would like a real solution to the problem. The actions so far hasnt brought that for a big part of the community...hopefully youll get us that solution Req...ds

 

[Hestethun]

Not a very well tought about thread start tbh this could only end in this , dunno what you were hoping for req. Sometimes is best to let the community handle things there own way, they are the ones that know best. They know much better then GoA and Mythic.

But i aint gonna cancel my sub yet! Have fun defending a stupid move

 

[Cromcruaich]

The last couple of posts ...

It's not so much about the relics anymore as the actions and management of the situation by GoA.