A Discussion

Gahn

Resident Freddy
Joined
Jan 16, 2004
Messages
5,056
I fail to see whats childish about highlighting a fact that no relic was involved in the crim incident, or is your definition of a childish response basically anything that you disagree with?

As for the old frontiers incident, I fail to see how it is relivent at all. No action was taken that impacted on any realms ability to defend or against anyones own realm. Mids stole a relic from hibs and dropped it at an albion ATK.

They won the relic fair and square and chose to do with it what they wanted, theres no rule saying you have to take a relic back to your own keep. Your perfectly within your rights to steal a relic from us Albs and go drop it at bledmeer front door if you want to. You did the work, you earned the relic its yours to do with that you want, there might even be a tactical reason for doing so, like mids taking a relic from Albion and giving it back to the hibs to weaken albs. The key point is they are not acting against their own realm, they are not being traitors or making it harder for their own realm mates to defend.
Just like in the old frontiers incident, the relic did not belong to the mids in the first place, it was albions merlin staff if I remember correctly, mids took it from hibs and dropped it at albs ATK. They did nothing to betray their own realm, they simply weakend the hibs for a short time and had the fun of the bragging value.

They? Who? All realm? Or only the leaders? Was all the people in agree for that action?
It's amusing that u can't grasp what was behind that action take from Mid Realm, the EXACT same reason for which TT lowered the Keep to level 1, to keep alive another realm in game.
I guess that u are in denying altho so i won't add any more.
 

charmangle

Fledgling Freddie
Joined
May 27, 2004
Messages
1,376
It's not so much about the relics anymore as the actions and management of the situation by GoA.

I know, thats what I said in the post (further down), but what Req was trying to get through was how all this got started...the bad blood so to say...that is and was unnecessarily blown out of proportion.

We are basically having 2 different discussions. Req wants it to be about the what lead us to this point, while we want to discuss the recent events and the effect they have had and what to do about them.

/Charmangle
 

Hawkwind

FH is my second home
Joined
Jul 5, 2004
Messages
7,541
It is clearly an emotional subject for much of the community but I have to agree with Requiel that the issue seems to have been slightly blown out of proportion. No disrepect intended to those with strong feeling on this.

I believe much of the emotion stems from seeing a game many of us still love to play gradually go down the toilet. That is something I hold GOA entirely responsible for. The lack of any advertising in UK and much of northern Europe is almost laughable. The only real advertising campaign I have ever seen for this game was during the TOA launch when I happened to be working in Paris for a few months. They seem to have missed the whole point of Marketing a product to make more money. It certainly does not bode well for Warhammer. Although, hopefully the EA machine will cover the shortfall in GOA’s inabilities to market a product.
 

IainC

English WAR Community Manager
Joined
Apr 21, 2004
Messages
1,862
Requiel,

I am going to respond to you once more and this is the end of it. You are talking to very highly educated indviduals here. If you don't recognise that and start to treat them with respect you will lose them. I am a published author of over 30 scientific articles in peer reviewed journals. I spent 9 years studying my subject at University. I know how to write, my peers know I know how to write. I also know how to read. Re-read your post it is ambiguous and extremely partisan in a situation that needs clarity and a balanced approach.

Your in the wrong here (as far as the clarity of the discussion goes) and it is nothing but extreme arrogance to blame us. You said 'they' in your post above - where I work that is a response that clearly shows you feel your dealing with a group that you do not associate with or even have any empathy for. It is your failure to be able to write and explain things clearly.

The onus is on you to be clear.

If you write something and people read it differently then in all likelihood you fucked up. 14 years as an academic has taught me that. Your last posts were extremely offensive. If you cannot see that then you need to take a very long hard look at yourself and the way you are defining us and speaking with us.

I have cancelled my subs and I am leaving. This is not a teenager or a 13 year old telling you this it is someone who is very well educated who knows when he is being treated badly. I gave you your chance but your inability to step out from behind your barricades has done it now.

Sharkith

Sharkith I know you are highly educated and I'm not going to patronise you however I do wonder if you've perhaps overanalysed what I've said. Using the word 'they' is derogatory? Really? I have been doing this job for several years now and one thing I have learnt is that no matter how plainly I express myself there will always be people who will reinterpret my words for their own reasons. I stand by all I've said and I dont think there's much to be gained from saying the same things with different words, I believe that anyone who reads what I've said without trying to filter it through the lens of their preconceptions will understand my meaning plainly enough.


My last couple of posts have been in response to the discussion coming full circle. Players asked what Goa were going to do about AC raiding and I explained that realistically we weren't going to do anything. It had already been established earlier in this thread and in others that (for various reasons) the playerbase on Dyvet reacted much more strongly to AC raids and had much more entrenched positions on many subjects to do with different playstyles. I was merely referring to that. I don't think we can deny that the attitudes on the server have been steadily deteriorating for some time and this divisiveness is what is truly at the root of this problem. I don't see how I am being partisan, I made it clear that it was mindsets on both sides of the various battlelines that were to blame and not any specific viewpoint or playstyle.

I have to say I'm disappointed in your reaction, I was under the impression that you were honestly trying to come to an understanding. I get the feeling from your last few posts however that you are instead trying to advance an agenda. I think this discussion has come to an end which is a shame because before it was resurrected a few weeks ago, there seemed to be real progress.
 

pip

Banned
Joined
Nov 28, 2004
Messages
3,977
In wrong job should of been a politician, they don't care about the community,and talk in riddles.
 

Belisar

One of Freddy's beloved
Joined
Sep 20, 2004
Messages
357
I think this discussion has come to an end which is a shame because before it was resurrected a few weeks ago, there seemed to be real progress.

You are wrong.

There was never any progress, the two sides could not see each others point of view and all that had happened was factions had gone their own ways and split off into other servers. It was more peaceful on this forum but Dyvet was stuffed as the player numbers had dropped so much.

It is sad to see that GOA cannot do anything about it, the factions are not going to see eye to eye and if there is no chance of the in game mechanics being realigned then we may as well all give up.
 

Belisar

One of Freddy's beloved
Joined
Sep 20, 2004
Messages
357
So Kag AC raided despite knowing it would upset a lot of players simply

to get a relic title, probably the biggest incentive of all,


I am sure gaining an RvR title by PvE'ing it gave you a very warm and fuzzy feeling inside.

It is exactly this kind of thought process (and perhaps I am unfairly using Kag as an example) that has not helped the game in general.

Ah well, not much we can do now.
 

Kagato

Fledgling Freddie
Joined
Dec 22, 2003
Messages
3,777
They? Who? All realm? Or only the leaders? Was all the people in agree for that action?
It's amusing that u can't grasp what was behind that action take from Mid Realm, the EXACT same reason for which TT lowered the Keep to level 1, to keep alive another realm in game.
I guess that u are in denying altho so i won't add any more.


No, completely different reason, Mids did it, as they stated clearly on BW/FH at the time, to show up albs by proving they could take the take hibs power relic keep when albs usually died trying.

'keeping alive another realm' had nothing at all to do with it, Albion has always had a healthy population, the only incentive behind that action was the bragging value, which mids themselves said on these very forums.

As for 'they, who, whatever' it was the same people who organised that CG (as it pre dated BG's) for that very raid which was pre-planned.

The really is no comparison at all between the two incidents.

So Kag AC raided despite knowing it would upset a lot of players simply


I am sure gaining an RvR title by PvE'ing it gave you a very warm and fuzzy feeling inside.

It is exactly this kind of thought process (and perhaps I am unfairly using Kag as an example) that has not helped the game in general.

Ah well, not much we can do now.

Not 'despite' so much as 'because'. One lame action deserved another, that was my response to the disgraceful actions of tt. There was no honour in it either, but it felt good to vent my anger.

And yes, it gave a very warm fussy feeling inside, its called revenge, its quite sweet you know.
 

djezuz

Fledgling Freddie
Joined
Nov 16, 2004
Messages
12
:mad:
Joap and Oneeyed quitting, some of the people i loved the most to rvr with, damn you Goa, to let this happen, more merry fair and nice players u have to look for a long time..
I will quit for good as well, 2 less accounts to pay your pension..
You should have acted long time ago, always tried to keep it positive myself(migth have slipped once), but this server to come to this end is pure bullshit.
Have had so many good times, and that the costa malacas(big assholes in greek) can destroy this is sad, there attitude their posts are as themself , lacking any good features the human kind can have.
Will only thank the players from the 3 realms that during the last 4 years have made it a good and fun game(the best), not all are to be blamed..
 

Gamah

Banned
Joined
Dec 22, 2003
Messages
13,042
:mad:
Joap and Oneeyed quitting, some of the people i loved the most to rvr with, damn you Goa, to let this happen, more merry fair and nice players u have to look for a long time..
I will quit for good as well, 2 less accounts to pay your pension..
You should have acted long time ago, always tried to keep it positive myself(migth have slipped once), but this server to come to this end is pure bullshit.
Have had so many good times, and that the costa malacas(big assholes in greek) can destroy this is sad, there attitude their posts are as themself , lacking any good features the human kind can have.
Will only thank the players from the 3 realms that during the last 4 years have made it a good and fun game(the best), not all are to be blamed..

Calm down.
 

Vodkafairy

Fledgling Freddie
Joined
Dec 23, 2003
Messages
7,798
the one thing I've learned after a few years of playing is that everyone 'gets over' things like AC raids pretty quickly. opening up such a long discussion about it will only loop around the frustration for weeks or even months after the actual event. and look, now even more people are quitting because of it.

requiel fucked up majorly by making this thread, and even more by not locking it once he realised his attitude is only making matters worse.

this entire thread can be summarized so easily

part of the community dislikes AC raids

part of the community condones AC raids

goa sides with the AC fans, and a good initiative from the anti-AC community ended up in suspensions.

fact is: the majority of fh's readers disagree with AC raids.

and yet, requiel feels its needed to have a debate about opinions on here. he's already convinced the policy he runs is the correct one, so a real debate is excluded straight from the start.

ironically his attitude fits exactely into what goa is 'supposed' to do, just like AC raiders are doing what people are 'supposed' to do in daoc. too bad both are bad for the community as a whole when the population is so low.

but hey, atleast we get minotaurs. :D !
 

Manisch Depressiv

Part of the furniture
Joined
Mar 6, 2005
Messages
7,727
fact is: the majority of fh's readers disagree with AC raids.

and yet, requiel feels its needed to have a debate about opinions on here. he's already convinced the policy he runs is the correct one, so a real debate is excluded straight from the start.

So?

Where else should he have a public debate when not on here where the people are fighting each other about this issue?

Think he said he doesn't like AC RRs from his personal point of view and finds them not challenging but from a GoA's point of view there is nothing GoA will do about it because excluding players from certain in game activities just because there is no player based opposition is not professional.

Why should GoA run a policy of which they are not convinced?

If you are so bothered with the state of Dyvet and want to help play here. Oh, wait... You play on Avalon where there is no relic balance atm, of course one could find 349583453354 arguments how it's bad for the server, for me and for my mom and how regardless of when the relics have been taken it happened in a way that one could call as lame as a AC RR.

At the end of the day it would be still a game though, a game run by GMs with a specific rule set with very little connections to real life morals.

Taking relics deep in the night when no one is out to defend them is allowed in this game. Don't like it? Send feedback to Mythic, stop crying, act like a grown up man instead of trying to make up your own rule set in the game and trying to force it on people who do not give a shit.
 

Cromcruaich

Can't get enough of FH
Joined
Nov 29, 2004
Messages
2,767
So?

Where else should he have a public debate when not on here where the people are fighting each other about this issue?

Think he said he doesn't like AC RRs from his personal point of view and finds them not challenging but from a GoA's point of view there is nothing GoA will do about it because excluding players from certain in game activities just because there is no player based opposition is not professional.

Why should GoA run a policy of which they are not convinced?

If you are so bothered with the state of Dyvet and want to help play here. Oh, wait... You play on Avalon where there is no relic balance atm, of course one could find 349583453354 arguments how it's bad for the server, for me and for my mom and how regardless of when the relics have been taken it happened in a way that one could call as lame as a AC RR.

At the end of the day it would be still a game though, a game run by GMs with a specific rule set with very little connections to real life morals.

Taking relics deep in the night when no one is out to defend them is allowed in this game. Don't like it? Send feedback to Mythic, stop crying, act like a grown up man instead of trying to make up your own rule set in the game and trying to force it on people who do not give a shit.

Why do the content of many of your posts seem more to be about who you are replying to than what you are replying to.
 

Septima

Fledgling Freddie
Joined
Dec 10, 2004
Messages
811
Atm the problem is not relics or ACing relics, it's the lack of population. So yeah this discussion is useless in the current state of dyveth.

PS: @djezus come to ava joap is currently active there with some of the old crew and we prolly can handle one more PL ;)
 

Tuthmes

FH is my second home
Joined
Jun 18, 2004
Messages
5,495
Manisch Depressiv said:
So?

Where else should he have a public debate when not on here where the people are fighting each other about this issue?

Think he said he doesn't like AC RRs from his personal point of view and finds them not challenging but from a GoA's point of view there is nothing GoA will do about it because excluding players from certain in game activities just because there is no player based opposition is not professional.

Why should GoA run a policy of which they are not convinced?

These arguments have bin chewed to bits and pieces, getting kinda boring tbh. Goa cant/will not respond to ac'ing, everybody recognizes that. Though banning people (who finaly respond to it, by doing something perfectly legit) wasnt the smartest thing todo. Requiel never answers the issue's about this, beside's hiding behind some fage SotG rule.

Manisch Depressiv said:
If you are so bothered with the state of Dyvet and want to help play here. Oh, wait... You play on Avalon where there is no relic balance atm, of course one could find 349583453354 arguments how it's bad for the server, for me and for my mom and how regardless of when the relics have been taken it happened in a way that one could call as lame as a AC RR.

Another note. Stop bitching on people who moved to another server, but have spend here most of their time. It's childish behaviour and bin done to death aswell.

Manisch Depressiv said:
At the end of the day it would be still a game though, a game run by GMs with a specific rule set with very little connections to real life morals.

Taking relics deep in the night when no one is out to defend them is allowed in this game. Don't like it? Send feedback to Mythic, stop crying, act like a grown up man instead of trying to make up your own rule set in the game and trying to force it on people who do not give a shit.

At the end of the day its still a game mebbe, but without any (serious) playerbase. Exactly what a mmorpg shouldnt be. The problem is the rule sotg isnt specific at all and yes you should have real life morals ingame aswell. Though a virtual world, there's still someone behind a screen trying to enjoy a game (who should realise its a virtual world yes, but with real life players playing it).
What Requiel is trying todo is saying work this AC'ing out with a good discussion, cause they can do fk all about it. Think people have stressed enough they dont exactly enjoy ac'ing(even Requiel), yet the ac crew doesnt care and keep on doin it, because they can.

It is upon the players to keep this game alive, yet the players we are talking about, don't care about it.
 

gwal

Fledgling Freddie
Joined
Dec 24, 2003
Messages
397
So?

Where else should he have a public debate when not on here where the people are fighting each other about this issue?

Think he said he doesn't like AC RRs from his personal point of view and finds them not challenging but from a GoA's point of view there is nothing GoA will do about it because excluding players from certain in game activities just because there is no player based opposition is not professional.

Why should GoA run a policy of which they are not convinced?

if this is chosen as the place then should the voices of the masses not be heard? instead u have one side that cant or wont change their view, and another side that has no chance of changing anything.. hardly makes for a creative discussion thats likely to lead to anything usefull.
best that could have hapened for those against AC raids is that a few raiders would have been convinced to stop it, what u got was more ppl quitting and a crowd more upset at goa than they alrdy were.


its not professional to try and deal with what the majority of ppl on a server consider a problem (this is the place chosen for discussion, if theres nothing wrong with it, then the responses here must be whats used for any considerations).
but it is responsible to effectivly ignore the pleading requests, and to just stand and watch ppl quit while u continually refuse to even acknowledge that there is a problem.

right....


and i think they are running a policy of which they arent convinced? havnt red this whole thing (cmon man...), but seem to be more than a few examples of how different action is taken in the same situations.


that said i dno what they are supposed to do about it since whatever they could possibly do should prolly only relate to this one server, havnt heard of any similar probs elsewhere (not that i know for sure ofc).
personally i dont care much bout ACing, but apparently many do, and making a thread just to tell ppl that nothing they say will ever change anything in any way, is not what ppl are looking for (or so id judge from the additional ppl quitting etc).


wonder if something like this could have had a different effect:
"we can see how continious ACing can be a problem for a low populated server, with your help we will try to adress this if possible, so plz give any suggestions you can on how to adress this without causing problems/grief/whatever for the part of the population that enjoys playing late night"
(would imagine quite a few would have suggested raising relic guard lvls to a point where u need too many to take em at theese hours on a low populated server).
well, smth mebbe :p


You are completely entitled to your opinion. I'm not denying that. I'm simply stating that playing the game in the manner intended is not griefing, no matter what.

im quite willing to bet that spending the majority of ones online time has not been ment to be focused around retaking defended keeps and relics for the majority of ones online time. except for short periods of time this has never been a big part of most ppls gaming experience. keeps and relics are part of the gaming experience and have been for long, here they have been turned into a daily "adventure", creating a very different type of rvr than what has been for years. even from the very beginning ppl complained about AC raids, back then u just needed more ppl/more sophistcated tactics. now it can be done on such low level servers that the same ppl have to do the same retaking daily, only other alternative is to travel further for any rvr action against an enemy that permanently has relics. nah, this cant be the manner intended.

The AC issue was entirely irrelevant to our decision, we considered only the action by BF/TT, to do otherwise would have been grossly unfair.

how so, their actions were based on the AC raids, so ofc that should have been taken into consideration.. to ignore that is grossly unfair, no?
dont quite get why the entire basic of their actions can be ignored in such a decision.

As I've said, to allow the different sides of the fence to reach an understanding in a reasonably moderated thread which isn't tied to any one specific incident.

how can the different sides reach an understanding when one side has a coc they follow, and cannot, nor will deviate from.
and even if u do understand what ppl are saying it cant change anything.
so apart from trying to get ppl to understand goas side of it, then one could be tempted to redo the question of why
 

Jupiter

Fledgling Freddie
Joined
Feb 1, 2004
Messages
1,443
the one thing I've learned after a few years of playing is that everyone 'gets over' things like AC raids pretty quickly. opening up such a long discussion about it will only loop around the frustration for weeks or even months after the actual event. and look, now even more people are quitting because of it.

requiel fucked up majorly by making this thread, and even more by not locking it once he realised his attitude is only making matters worse.

this entire thread can be summarized so easily

part of the community dislikes AC raids

part of the community condones AC raids

goa sides with the AC fans, and a good initiative from the anti-AC community ended up in suspensions.

fact is: the majority of fh's readers disagree with AC raids.

and yet, requiel feels its needed to have a debate about opinions on here. he's already convinced the policy he runs is the correct one, so a real debate is excluded straight from the start.

ironically his attitude fits exactely into what goa is 'supposed' to do, just like AC raiders are doing what people are 'supposed' to do in daoc. too bad both are bad for the community as a whole when the population is so low.

but hey, atleast we get minotaurs. :D !

word, i agree whole heartedly in fact i reckon horner is requiel
 

Vodkafairy

Fledgling Freddie
Joined
Dec 23, 2003
Messages
7,798
Taking relics deep in the night when no one is out to defend them is allowed in this game. Don't like it? Send feedback to Mythic, stop crying, act like a grown up man instead of trying to make up your own rule set in the game and trying to force it on people who do not give a shit.

you pull a hell of a lot of crap out of your ass, I've never cried about AC raids but merely said I think they're idiotic and so are those who join and condone them.

the rest of your post is completely irrelevant because you're posing questions not worth answering and giving opinions I don't give a fuck about. you quoted my opinion and my opinion only, you can disagree with it all you want, but it isn't going to change.

don't get me wrong - requiels initiative to ultimately create understanding between different groups of players was good. the timing however was horrible, aswell as too late.

im convinced there are many things GOA could have done to prevent things going this far downhill on dyvet, yet they havn't. I'm not crying about it because my daoc-carefactor is at an alltime low, nor are they doing things they shouldn't do.

Fact remains, they could and should have done something, but now it's way too late.
 

Lethul

FH is my second home
Joined
Jan 25, 2004
Messages
8,433
In wrong job should of been a politician, they don't care about the community,and talk in riddles.

no offence, but are you retarded irl or something?

will we see a goodbye thread from Requiel when GoA have to fire all the .uk staff? :)
 

kirennia

Part of the furniture
Joined
Dec 26, 2003
Messages
3,857
No-one got 'outright banned' either. Two players got a short suspension, I know you know this but I've seen rehashes of this in other places where chinese whispers have magically turned the two 5 day suspensions into us permabanning two entire guilds. I think it's important to keep that in perspective to avoid uninformed over-reaction.

Hehe, another example of how words can be read a lot differently to how they were meant. I never said nor meant that they were perma banned as I'm sure pretty much everyone here already knows how the bannings which were dished out. :)

My problem wasn't so much with the bannings but more with why and how those 2 got banned. At no point were we ever given any kind of sign that anything at all would happen. Looking back to before this happened, the only similar-ish events which occured were the alb relic dropoff and AoDs keep lowering a while back. Those were our only reference.

Don't read this as my comparing dropping a keep with and without a relic as the same. They are not. Bans were however handed out with no prior warning. No attempt to contact us to warn us of upcoming troubles were made. No post has been made on your website to clarify the problem. Surely this would be a great step to make sure this never happens again.

I (reluctantly) accepted after what happened that GoA see it as wrong, really I do. I just don't think that after a neutral stance in prior times to similar events, insta week bans were appropriate without warning.

One last question, is at what point is lowering a keep considered apparent 'greifing'?

Level 7? Level 5?

And are towers around a relic keep allowed to be decreased at all from 10? If a normal keep is held at level 1 these days, are bans dished out? This is the problem. With no set system in place, no guidelines are there to be followed. I have no intent on doing this as I've moved on from the past, as have the rest of the guild; just clarity for those who remain would help avoid these situations in the future.
 

Z^^

Can't get enough of FH
Joined
Jan 16, 2004
Messages
1,287
I think Requiel's stance is the ONLY valid stance point to take as a GameMaster for a Mmorpg, and when saying that you really have to understand why it is like that.. because if you say that no relic raiding is not good to be doing after time/population caps etc... then your all wrong.

Tho the "game" daoc witch used to be even my favorite game witch I spent many hours playing on have had its unfortunate patches/changes or maybe ppl have grown old and the recruiting for daoc by advertising stopped, so sence 2003-2004 witch I think daoc had the highest population numbers (I have no statistics, just plain numbers from my head.) But the drop in numbers became so evidently boring(read less intresting) already when I tryed to rerun daoc during the summer of 2006.

One thing that really bugs me tho why didn't goa/mythic ever think about adding in-gamelocks to relic gates with timelocks or poplocks, I meen the dicussion about alarm clock raiding have been a topic sence release of the game really?


~~edit : Oh and releasing the Relic keep from level 10 to 1 must always be considered to be grief play, If its done in this fashion.
 

Aerendur

Fledgling Freddie
Joined
May 17, 2004
Messages
320
One thing that really bugs me tho why didn't goa/mythic ever think about adding in-gamelocks to relic gates with timelocks or poplocks, I meen the dicussion about alarm clock raiding have been a topic sence release of the game really?

The thing is, there is a tool that could be used for this. The tool (guards that get popped) after a new patch/cluster where the new frontiers get reset.

So they are only not doing it because they feel there is either no need or that it takes away an essential part of the game for some people. Wether or not this might be true, not doing anything also takes away a big part of the game for those affected by these type of raids.

But GOA refuses to count the feelings of being grieved due to these raids as valid. And that is where this discussion ends, the whole reason people are leaving the server over isnt acknowledged by GOA. (at least not up to the point where something could/should be done about it)
 

Cromcruaich

Can't get enough of FH
Joined
Nov 29, 2004
Messages
2,767
Does Requeil still think it was the right decision to hand out suspensions, rather than actually taking some sort of corrective action, or even contacting the players to advise them to raise the keep level to 10? Infact as an English GM, why didnt you just get in game when a TT GM was on and explain the situation? Or is being ingame beneath you now? Was it far easier just to let the right now process handle it rather than you personally?

Maybe a starting point to resolve this would be for Req to start accepting that his actions were heavy handed, and an apology plus a free months play for banned TT players would be a way to actually get things back on track.
 

Oneeyedjack

Fledgling Freddie
Joined
Feb 22, 2004
Messages
90
if this is chosen as the place then should the voices of the masses not be heard? instead u have one side that cant or wont change their view, and another side that has no chance of changing anything.. hardly makes for a creative discussion thats likely to lead to anything usefull.
best that could have hapened for those against AC raids is that a few raiders would have been convinced to stop it, what u got was more ppl quitting and a crowd more upset at goa than they alrdy were.


its not professional to try and deal with what the majority of ppl on a server consider a problem (this is the place chosen for discussion, if theres nothing wrong with it, then the responses here must be whats used for any considerations).
but it is responsible to effectivly ignore the pleading requests, and to just stand and watch ppl quit while u continually refuse to even acknowledge that there is a problem.

right....


and i think they are running a policy of which they arent convinced? havnt red this whole thing (cmon man...), but seem to be more than a few examples of how different action is taken in the same situations.


that said i dno what they are supposed to do about it since whatever they could possibly do should prolly only relate to this one server, havnt heard of any similar probs elsewhere (not that i know for sure ofc).
personally i dont care much bout ACing, but apparently many do, and making a thread just to tell ppl that nothing they say will ever change anything in any way, is not what ppl are looking for (or so id judge from the additional ppl quitting etc).


wonder if something like this could have had a different effect:
"we can see how continious ACing can be a problem for a low populated server, with your help we will try to adress this if possible, so plz give any suggestions you can on how to adress this without causing problems/grief/whatever for the part of the population that enjoys playing late night"
(would imagine quite a few would have suggested raising relic guard lvls to a point where u need too many to take em at theese hours on a low populated server).
well, smth mebbe :p




im quite willing to bet that spending the majority of ones online time has not been ment to be focused around retaking defended keeps and relics for the majority of ones online time. except for short periods of time this has never been a big part of most ppls gaming experience. keeps and relics are part of the gaming experience and have been for long, here they have been turned into a daily "adventure", creating a very different type of rvr than what has been for years. even from the very beginning ppl complained about AC raids, back then u just needed more ppl/more sophistcated tactics. now it can be done on such low level servers that the same ppl have to do the same retaking daily, only other alternative is to travel further for any rvr action against an enemy that permanently has relics. nah, this cant be the manner intended.



how so, their actions were based on the AC raids, so ofc that should have been taken into consideration.. to ignore that is grossly unfair, no?
dont quite get why the entire basic of their actions can be ignored in such a decision.



how can the different sides reach an understanding when one side has a coc they follow, and cannot, nor will deviate from.
and even if u do understand what ppl are saying it cant change anything.
so apart from trying to get ppl to understand goas side of it, then one could be tempted to redo the question of why


Couldnt have said it more precisely myself. Regarding the issue of a small group of people griefing 3 realms by continous AC raiding relics, there is no discussion. Requiel stated that those of us considering this grief play is wrong and we have to accept it, nothing to do about, nothing to discuss. GOA is right (ofcouse), but not the best way to open a productive discussion and reverse the bad spiralling process this problem is causing on the dyvet server. And definately not a smart way to win customers. I can only say, Im still stunned how pourly this situation has been handled. There has been so many chances to handle this proactive, instead it has been a matter of: "we have made a strong set of rules we choose to enforce at all cost, even if it will cost us most of our customers, but atleast we are right", I fear it will end up with a deserted kingdom with a small population of albs PvEing keeps asking themselves "why wont people play with us???". I really hope Im wrong, but all signs points in that direction.:(
 

Thorwyn

FH is my second home
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Infact as an English GM, why didnt you just get in game when a TT GM was on and explain the situation? Or is being ingame beneath you now? Was it far easier just to let the right now process handle it rather than you personally?
But would that have changed anything about the TT actions? As I understand it, the decision from TT was meant to be a statement against the AC raiders as well as GoA. By lowering the keep to 1, they more or less forced GoA to take a stance (because the resulting RightNow complains were obvious), either for or against their actions. If Requiel would have logged in, trying to talk to them, saying "hey guys, you can´t do that, it´s against the SotG" etc.etc.blabla, I really.. REALLY doubt that they would have complied. Because that´s exactly what they didn´t want to hear. I think they would have bitten the bullet, saying something along: "well then, so be it, suspend us if you have to", playing their new role as martyrs and getting the reason they were looking for in order to leave the server. (Note, the last sentence is not meant to be a personal attack or flame. It´s just a pretty overbooked view of the incident and its aftermath). Basically, they provoked the schism we got now, by driving their position to the extreme, just like the AC raiders were driving their position to an extreme. There´s nothing wrong with that though, it could have turned out "mythic-ish". :)

Yes, GoA could have handled the situation a tad more sensitive. I´m not sure how though, because I (as well as we all here) don´t have access to all the informations and chatlogs. And it´s far from easy to always find a suitable reply to stuff like that. But whatever they do, they won´t and can´t solve the basic problem and that´s the crucial thing.
 

Cromcruaich

Can't get enough of FH
Joined
Nov 29, 2004
Messages
2,767
But would that have changed anything about the TT actions? As I understand it, the decision from TT was meant to be a statement against the AC raiders as well as GoA. By lowering the keep to 1, they more or less forced GoA to take a stance (because the resulting RightNow complains were obvious), either for or against their actions. If Requiel would have logged in, trying to talk to them, saying "hey guys, you can´t do that, it´s against the SotG" etc.etc.blabla, I really.. REALLY doubt that they would have complied. Because that´s exactly what they didn´t want to hear. I think they would have bitten the bullet, saying something along: "well then, so be it, suspend us if you have to", playing their new role as martyrs and getting the reason they were looking for in order to leave the server. (Note, the last sentence is not meant to be a personal attack or flame. It´s just a pretty overbooked view of the incident and its aftermath). Basically, they provoked the schism we got now, by driving their position to the extreme, just like the AC raiders were driving their position to an extreme. There´s nothing wrong with that though, it could have turned out "mythic-ish". :)

Yes, GoA could have handled the situation a tad more sensitive. I´m not sure how though, because I (as well as we all here) don´t have access to all the informations and chatlogs. And it´s far from easy to always find a suitable reply to stuff like that. But whatever they do, they won´t and can´t solve the basic problem and that´s the crucial thing.

I can't answer for TT personally and neither can you. The key fact remains they werent given the option, and the English GM did nothing other than handle the process through right now. Surely its part of the English GM's job to attempt to come to amicable resolutions in game where possible? Anyhow, i'm not going to pursue an discussion about it as it will reduce the chance of a response from Req.
 

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