A Discussion

[Darzil]

Your guild like mine is prob getting big due to the rest of the guilds dying like today i click social 18 in my guild 24 on in alliance

A little bit of that, we've had a couple join us recently.

Mainly it's people coming back or staying with us, the attrition over the last few months has been marginal. We run weekly guild events, as well as always trying to be there to help each other. We're also less RvR oriented, which may keep passions lower!

Darzil

 

[Belgorian]

.

Don't you see the chance you have to get to know more about your product as a consumer?


edit: I should add that this service is experienced differently on other servers ran by the same company. Ask yourself why that might be?

I havent checked any of your old posts, but I would hazard a guess that you had not felt it necessary to post about the quality of our GM'S, prior to the TT incident??

This debate has always been about the decision taken against TT and the problems caused by Alarm clock raids. What I do see, is you now trying to rally support and push your arguments to a wider and much more personal level.

Someone said in an earlier post, that you are like a Dog with a bone! You give me the exact same impression.

_________________________
Belgorian LVL50 Armsman
RR9L6-Guildmaster of LOE and
thoroughly nice chap!1

 

[Gahn]

I havent checked any of your old posts, but I would hazard a guess that you had not felt it necessary to post about the quality of our GM'S, prior to the TT incident??

This debate has always been about the decision taken against TT and the problems caused by Alarm clock raids. What I do see, is you now trying to rally support and push your arguments to a wider and much more personal level.

Someone said in an earlier post, that you are like a Dog with a bone! You give me the exact same impression.

_________________________
Belgorian LVL50 Armsman
RR9L6-Guildmaster of LOE and
thoroughly nice chap!1

Let alone that there were discussions about the overall presence and time to react of the English Team in the past (in some cases i was critical when needed but also i gave credit to em when needed) , it's surely easier to make comparisons when u actually play under other GMs.

 

[kirennia]

The service is different on other servers but I personally never had any big beef about GoA. I've been helped out numerous times by them and am thankful for that. Rightnow responces were always given out very quickly as well which was fantastic. Even now, I still think they made a mistake in the way they handled things (no warning before bannings etc) but things like this happen.

Requiel has been clear and at least been decent enough to come and post on here; it's just a shame that nothing seems to be able to come of it other then a lot of hours lost reading

I honestly hope those who remain find a peaceful resolution on the server as it's one that I'm still fond of and it deserves better then the recent barrages it's received. Time permitting, I still want to make my tic vid sometime soon

 

[Conway]

Folks and Conway,

To be honest Conway you have some very good balanced points but each of those have been covered many times here. My reaction to the 'they' comment can be explained with reference to the term 'othering'. If you want to understand my reaction you have to understand that my background will make me very sensitive to terms like this and I will react to them especially in such a situation. Requiel was using a classical 'othering' technique as he has been doing for some time here.

You have to ask yourself why this is the case. On that point I am sorry but I have put another essay together

Just give it time, it is to the guys left here I hope you guys take a close look.

Yes given the length of this thread I expect every point anyone makes is repetitive.

I'm sorry, having read the definition of othering, 'a self-affirmation that depends upon the denigration of the other group' I still don't see that it could be reasonably applied to the use of the word 'they' in that post. If you are looking for that sort of thing you can find it in a lot of things.

One of your own posts said. 'This is not a teenager or a 13 year old telling you this it is someone who is very well educated'

This could equally be described as othering. I'm sure you did not mean that any more than Requiel meant anything. Few people have the time or ability to come up with posts that are perfect and I doubt he has had any special training. He is just a guy trying to do a job, probably with time pressures, and like the rest of us not infallible.

Support always seemed reasonable. If its not available 24x7 that is to do with staffing levels and finances. I'm in a different game, I was surprised to get a response late evening within minutes. Perhaps the fast response was partly because the subs are higher in that game.

 

[Sharkith]

I havent checked any of your old posts, but I would hazard a guess that you had not felt it necessary to post about the quality of our GM'S, prior to the TT incident??

to the contrary I have been at loggerheads with Requiel before. If your from Excal you might not be aware of it. We have been here before with him and others. The database issue is a case in point.

We had some bloody awful debates over that one and then it transpired that GOA got screwed as much by Mythic as they did by a technical issue.

This debate has always been about the decision taken against TT and the problems caused by Alarm clock raids. What I do see, is you now trying to rally support and push your arguments to a wider and much more personal level.

Someone said in an earlier post, that you are like a Dog with a bone! You give me the exact same impression.

Right up to the last few posts I actually felt he was trying to reach an understanding. Of course I got very upset angry because of the time and effort I had put into this (way too much time). I think that you can lose perspective in this kind of thing so your comment is worth noting.

So yes I got upset but if you think I am being personal your wrong.

Those facts remain FH has a chance to learn from this. You guys have an opportunity to compare notes here probably more so than any other DAOC community worldwide. You can use that positively.

Even since I posted the points you can see a lot of support for GOA even from those in TT. I agree it is a bit off topic though and would have served people better in a different thread.

 

[Kagato]

What do the people who were against the TT action think, I guess within the small world that is FH Muy, Kin and Kagato are the main protagonists. Are they happy at the outcome and do they think it was a fair action to hand out at the time in retrospect? Or would a more subtle approach from English GM's to get the same ultimate outcome (a l10 keep) of been better for the cluster in retrospect?

Actually thats a thought, what happened with the keep, did it just stay at l1 with TT claiming it after the suspensions?

I think its a shame that the whole incident happend at all, but that blame is squarely on tt's shoulders. I also think its a far greater shame that this whole thing is so hideously blown out of proportion and is STILL growing ever more out of proportion. The blame for that lays with the people who just wont let it go and still persist on brow beating Requiel and GOA over this.

GOA acted in the only way they possibly could within their rules, to act otherwise would of been to break their own rules of dealing with such siturations and would of put them on a slippery slope everyone here knows full well they would be quoted on and quoted on again and again on any future even vaguely similer siturations. Just like people are still trying to draw tenuous links between this and the crim incident or the ATK relic drop etc etc.

Every single thing GOA does is over-analysed, quoted and held up against them as is proven right here in this thread where people are still trying to nit-pick, miss-quote and analyse every single letter Requiel types. I wouldn't trade places with him for £1,000 right now. So can they really be blamed for sticking to their own rules and guidlines rather then warning people first about the rules they are breaking.

You don't see GOA warning people when they get caught speed-hacking, why should this be any different? If they started warning first, people would push their luck time and time again, as is human nature, and then whine that they didn't get a warning first when GOA finally do issue a ban.

So yes, I still agree 100% with GOA's actions here, and I am quite happy with the outcome. I regret the whole incident ever took place, but I had no involvment with that incident at all so I have nothing to feel bad about and I have no regrets over the results. As for protaganists, thats a poor choice of word, most of the people you quoted had nothing to do with those events at all, not with goa or the keep. We simply condemned the traitors actions and voiced our opinions which is what these forums are for, if you hate us for that, your simply hating people for disagreeing with you.

 

[Asha]

same shit, different day.... amazing

speed hacking is the same as making a statement... the logic is just flawless, as usual

it doesn't matter if you all blather on about this for another 3 months. it's done, it can't be undone. GOA can't fix it. The TT incident didn't kill the server, it was just the last nail in the coffin. Let it go, game over.

 

[Belisar]

I think its a shame that the whole incident happend at all, but that blame is squarely on tt's shoulders. I also think its a far greater shame that this whole thing is so hideously blown out of proportion ...

It is a shame the incident happened but to blame TT is shortsighted.

AC raids have been going on for ages and been gathering an increasing level of whine and moans here on FH. From that it has been clear that AC raids have been annoying vast chunks of the community.

Sooner or later it was all going to come to a head and things were going to get nasty. The TT incident was the final straw but there remains a huge haystack of gripes and moans and bad feeling underneath.

Some things have been blown out of proportion. I am not sure anyone could conduct a RR anymore without getting critisised about the timing in some way.

Parts of the community have quite different points of view and are not getting any closer. As a result of AC raids numbers from the community have moved on and that cannot be good for the game or those who are left.

I wonder if some kind of neutral way of stopping AC raids or making them a lot harder to complete (and gawd knows what that process would be) would encourage some players to return or perversely drive different people away.

 

[Kagato]

It is a shame the incident happened but to blame TT is shortsighted.

I blame them specifically for this whole incident ever happening, nothing else, this would never of happend without that betrayel. The AC raids were not good either, but those alone only generated the typical RR whines we have already been used to for the past 5 years, nothing like this, this is what caused so much upset.

The ultimate blame if you want to go to the whole root of the problem lays with the game design alone, 4 years ago even people were asking for more guards at the very least at off peak hours which would of helped but Mythic have never done anything about it, and it is Mythics fault, not GOA's, GOA are effectively just the middle-men.

And judging by their GOA Event quests, i'd rather they didn't interfere with guards or the frontier thankyou.

 

[Muylaetrix]

I blame them specifically for this whole incident ever happening, nothing else, this would never of happend without that betrayel. The AC raids were not good either, but those alone only generated the typical RR whines we have already been used to for the past 5 years, nothing like this, this is what caused so much upset.

amen to that.

And judging by their GOA Event quests, i'd rather they didn't interfere with guards or the frontier thankyou.

tbh, i WOULD like to see those guards replace the normal guards (and be made wroth rp ofc, not much, 5 each at most)

give guards like these to fight (for a bit of rp) and the nightshift might have something more intresting to do than take empty keeps with stupid guards.

each time a tower or keep get attacked, (special rules that have to be met here) dispatch a set of guards to go break the siege.

problem with that is that it would totally break all soloers chances.

now a soloer can take an unclaimed tower if not attacked himself.


anyway so much that could be done BY MYTHIC, not goa.

 

[Takitothemacs]

tbh, i WOULD like to see those guards replace the normal guards (and be made wroth rp ofc, not much, 5 each at most)

give guards like these to fight (for a bit of rp) and the nightshift might have something more intresting to do than take empty keeps with stupid guards.

The way things are going on the cluster that looks to be one of the few possible sources of RP for those remaining on there if something isnt done to revive the populations... although I fear that the cancer eating away at the dyvet population is terminal.

 

[ambera]

I blame them specifically for this whole incident ever happening, nothing else, this would never of happend without that betrayel. The AC raids were not good either, but those alone only generated the typical RR whines we have already been used to for the past 5 years, nothing like this, this is what caused so much upset.

As several other people here have pointed out, without GOAs intervention, TT lowering the keep would have been dealt with by the community and blown over in the same way that similar incidents have always blown over. It was specifically the wielding of the ban stick that turned this into the issue it has become. IMO. Blaming TT isn't just shortsighted, it's wilfully wrong-headed. GOA taking sides in this issue is what's unprecedented here.

 

[eble@work]

I blame them specifically for this whole incident ever happening, nothing else, this would never of happend without that betrayel. The AC raids were not good either, but those alone only generated the typical RR whines we have already been used to for the past 5 years, nothing like this, this is what caused so much upset.

The ultimate blame if you want to go to the whole root of the problem lays with the game design alone, 4 years ago even people were asking for more guards at the very least at off peak hours which would of helped but Mythic have never done anything about it, and it is Mythics fault, not GOA's, GOA are effectively just the middle-men.

And judging by their GOA Event quests, i'd rather they didn't interfere with guards or the frontier thankyou.

Yes AC raids had drawn massive amounts of whine, and then we all got on with it.

But things have changed alot in 5 years I dont go on 200 man relic raids, we dont try killing the dragon with 200+ people and loose, 10 fg albs dont roam the bowl in OF.

AC raids have just turned into a weapon with which to beat another realm, Albion with the higher popoulations at 12am to 5am GMT appear to have little or nothing to fight so they had few options.

The problem began when Hib was the target of repaeated attacks, why on earth you couldn't have thought ok lets try Mid tonight, I've no idea.

I was present on many a relic retakes, only for the next day to find it had be AC'd away, and this went on for weeks got very boring, we had no defence against and still have none against attacks at 3-5am, just as example take horner and cronies, that have taken to knocking over keeps night after night at 3-4-5am during the week. Ok so that gives him something to do great.

But It just so happens I was on and was defending Crauch the other day 5-6am GMT (which is 3-4pm here in Australia) almost as soon as the attackers noticed some defence, and being outskilled by guards they left.

It must have run thru there heads lets get crauch, OMFG a defender lets run to the hills, honestly.

I'll end with you pay your subs, everyone play as they like, but we all know what playstyles have effected the population of this server.

From a personal point of view RVR isn't that great.

Eble

 

[Conway]

As several other people here have pointed out, without GOAs intervention, TT lowering the keep would have been dealt with by the community and blown over in the same way that similar incidents have always blown over. It was specifically the wielding of the ban stick that turned this into the issue it has become. IMO. Blaming TT isn't just shortsighted, it's wilfully wrong-headed. GOA taking sides in this issue is what's unprecedented here.

Discussions between people in game got some people annoyed enough to rightnow complaints to GOA. At that point the community had effectively failed to deal with it and dumped the problem on GOA. Once there were rightnow complaints GOA either had to act or not act given the evidence they could see in server side chat logs which probably included some over excited remarks. Either acting or not acting would be seen as taking a side and bitterly resented by a group of people. There was no neutral action.

I believe all involved in this actually want DAOC to have a future. If they had known back then what they know now then everyone might have realised the potential destructive nature of things and acted differently. GOA's actions might have been slightly different. TT might have acted differently. There might have been less threads winding people up to a high pitch of emotion and suggesting they go to the press.

Hindsight is wonderful. The past cannot be changed and looking at the future is more constructive. If you want an in game mechanism for handling AC raids go to the people who can change the game. Mythic.

 

[Belisar]

I blame them specifically for this whole incident ever happening, nothing else, this would never of happend without that betrayel.

We know we disagree on this point and we never will agree.

The AC raids were not good either, but those alone only generated the typical RR whines we have already been used to for the past 5 years, nothing like this, this is what caused so much upset.

It has got to a kind of fever pitch. But it has been building up. If there had only ever been 1 AC raid and TT did what they did and GOA did what they did I am sure we would not see the current level of stress.

the ultimate blame if you want to go to the whole root of the problem lays with the game design alone, ... Mythic have never done anything about it, and it is Mythics fault, not GOA's, GOA are effectively just the middle-men.

That may be a yes and no answer from me. As I understand it (and I have never played US servers) AC raids are less of an issue there. As a result it may be that this kind of problem has never come onto Mythic's radar. Interesting question would be if GOA have ever gone back to Mythic and said "excuse me but we may have a problem here".

I suspect, like a lot of people, GOA have not taken the AC raids seriously as an issue or a cancer eating away at the game. They have taken the view that people will vent their spleen (largely here on FH) and just get on with it as they have always done.

 

[Conway]

As I understand it (and I have never played US servers) AC raids are less of an issue there. As a result it may be that this kind of problem has never come onto Mythic's radar. Interesting question would be if GOA have ever gone back to Mythic and said "excuse me but we may have a problem here".

I suspect, like a lot of people, GOA have not taken the AC raids seriously as an issue or a cancer eating away at the game. They have taken the view that people will vent their spleen (largely here on FH) and just get on with it as they have always done.

Very, very good point. That is the interesting question.

There is a lot of highly dramatic emotion flung around on FH about everything from someone taking a tower, or using a realm ability in a 1v1 fight on upwards. Some people regularly tell others to leave or threaten to leave themselves. It may be hard to gauge exactly how real the underlying feelings are given the general cloud of smoke and lightning over the forum.

 

[Cromcruaich]

...

Thanks for reply. Just a couple of points - you surely recognise the difference between TT's actions and a speed hacker? It does make it difficult at times having a serious discussion when you take that sort of direction, which you yourself i'm sure understand is not a fair comparison.

And secondly, equally Requeil could of operated within the remit of GoA and a managing GM to try and rectify the situation by speaking directly to TT GM's, before administering completely unexpected (and believed to be unjustified) suspensions.

Would you of preferred an outcome where the keep was put back to level 10, TT were restricted from claiming by the alb community because of their actions (self governance as mentioned) and bans werent handed out? Or do you infact just take a certain amount of pleasure from knowing those individuals were banned, even though it had a detrimental effect on the cluster as a whole?

 

[Cromcruaich]

I blame them specifically for this whole incident ever happening.

So though the incident started with TT, do you not in anyway consider that ensuing discussions wouldn't of happened without the response from Requiel and the GoA team? Arn't they even more culpable?

This has been pointed out before in this thread, but with the TT action, and no direct intervention by GoA this would of blown over after a week, once they got involved it changed the situation completely. I can't think of a single positive effect that resulted from GoA's choosen course of action, and that is very daming in my eyes.

 

[Cromcruaich]

Discussions between people in game got some people annoyed enough to rightnow complaints to GOA. At that point the community had effectively failed to deal with it and dumped the problem on GOA. Once there were rightnow complaints GOA either had to act or not act given the evidence they could see in server side chat logs which probably included some over excited remarks. Either acting or not acting would be seen as taking a side and bitterly resented by a group of people. There was no neutral action.

Thats a diversion, Requiel has said the suspensions were specifically for the reduction of the keep to l1. And as weve seen, the issue people had was the lowering the keep to l1, and this wasnt even changed as a result of the complaints. What is shocking is that suspensions were handed out, without any effort by GoA to actually rectify the situation in a way that avoided suspensions of people who didn't even know what they had done could result in a suspension, but additionally, that they didnt even manage to actually deliver the result (a l10 keep) for which the complaints we're delivered. It is an abject failure to actually deliver a reasonable outcome to anyone, except for those people who infact werent interested in a level 10 keep, but were more interested in simply achieving bans for people whom they didnt agree with.

 

[Appollo]

Banned for betrayal! lol, someone is having a laugh.

 

[Davejohnson]

dark age of the cold war inc :<

 

[Conway]

Thats a diversion, Requiel has said the suspensions were specifically for the reduction of the keep to l1. And as weve seen, the issue people had was the lowering the keep to l1, and this wasnt even changed as a result of the complaints. What is shocking is that suspensions were handed out, without any effort by GoA to actually rectify the situation in a way that avoided suspensions of people who didn't even know what they had done could result in a suspension, but additionally, that they didnt even manage to actually deliver the result (a l10 keep) for which the complaints we're delivered. It is an abject failure to actually deliver a reasonable outcome to anyone, except for those people who infact werent interested in a level 10 keep, but were more interested in simply achieving bans for people whom they didnt agree with.

Its a diversion in that I freely admit to trying to divert the debate from an endless destructive cycle of bickering about who was to blame for something that happened a couple of months ago into something constructive. In my opinion there were bigger mistakes made by other sides than GOA. There seems an unreasonable amount of perfection expected from people who are just ordinary human beings doing a job. The only reason I am posting in this thread at this point is because I could see signs of a little lynch mob forming. That seemed unfair to me. I am still a paying customer of DAOC in that I have two accounts that have not yet expired, so I am entitled to comment on the customer service and the posts made by Requiel in this thread.

In my opinion it is time for people to quit trying to find a scapegoat to blame in order to justify themselves, forget the egos and move on.

The english servers will cluster with other language servers, more people will leave because of that. If you want a future for the english speaking community in DAOC then your best chance is to get the community back together and attract players back. This thread is hardly an advert.

I apologise if the word 'you' is here interpreted as othering. I am distinguishing between myself as a person who has left and sees no real appeal in rejoining such a divided community, and the people who wish to keep playing DAOC.

Dog. Bone. Drop it.

 

[charmangle]

Thanks for reply. Just a couple of points - you surely recognise the difference between TT's actions and a speed hacker? It does make it difficult at times having a serious discussion when you take that sort of direction, which you yourself i'm sure understand is not a fair comparison.

I said the exact same thing in ventrilo when reading Kagots post.

Its really hard taking him seriously when he purposly (I guess) use such stupid comparisons to try and score points who become non valid simply because of this.

Using a speed hack is against a clear, written and declared rule. You are not allowed to use any kind of secondary programs in effect with Daoc.

Where does it say that you arent allowed to lower a relic keep?
If it had said so anywhere Id be with you Kagato, but it doesnt. Therefor GoA had to resort to using "The spirit of the Game" rule.

Now can you with a 100% certainty say that anything in the game is within the spirit of the game to everyone? That is impossible, because that is all up to a persons view on the game. To start with one has to assume that all things possible ingame is also within "the spirit of the game", until declared otherwise. Also it seems that "The spirit of the Game" differs between GoA and Mythic, and one might think that those that created the game, also created "The spirit of the Game" therefor they should be the ones knowing what it entailed?

GoA, previous to this situation, to my knowledge, have never banned anyone for any reason without due warning (clearly stated that its against their view on the rules).

This action was a presidence in more ways than one...of which none were good.

/Charmangle

ps. Kagato a much better example would have been the spamming of emotes. Before GoA decided to start banning people for doing more than 5 emotes at a time towards another player. They clearly stated that this was from now on considered griefing and could warrent a ban. ds.

 

[Cromcruaich]

In my opinion there were bigger mistakes made by other sides than GOA.

Care to elaborate?

There seems an unreasonable amount of perfection expected from people who are just ordinary human beings doing a job.

Interesting words, however admission of heavy handedness post event would of gone a long way to dousing the arguments. It really doesnt require a superhuman inisight to of predicted where the suspensions would of ended up.

In my opinion it is time for people to quit trying to find a scapegoat to blame in order to justify themselves, forget the egos and move on.

Scapegoat? The scapegoat being the people who took the action at the seat of the problem? At the risk of falling into a typical fh retaliatory cliche - i'd advise just rechecking that scapegoat definition.

The english servers will cluster with other language servers, more people will leave because of that. If you want a future for the english speaking community in DAOC then your best chance is to get the community back together and attract players back. This thread is hardly an advert.

And neither should it be, but it's GoA and Requeil who made their bed, unfortunately we are all lying in it. Additionally, as people in seperate realms cant communicate in game, I really dont mind what language other realm players speak, and if some english people leave during an ensuing merge, then though its a loss, its not as much as would be gained from the increased population - infact, if you were being realistic, increased player numbers is more of a pull for people than the negative effect of cross language merge. So I find your logic here floored.

Anyhow, i'd rather hear some response from Req, but doesnt look like any will be fourthcoming as he has the belief that he took the best action for the cluster, despite all evidence to the contrary.

Before you take an action, you need to think what is the outcome you are trying to achieve. What outcome were suspensions trying to achieve at the time you handed them out Req? Have you achieved that outcome satisfactorily?

 

[Soulja_IA_]

Maybe action should be taken for goa to pull they finger out regarding this server.

On one the US servers when they didnt like what mythic introduced 1 realm staged a RvR ban maybe this is what this server needs is for 1 realm should do make it utterly pointless for these people to RvR then Goa may do something.

Tho saying that albs are making it pointless to RvR lately anyway

Soulja

 

[Conway]

Care to elaborate?


Interesting words, however admission of heavy handedness post event would of gone a long way to dousing the arguments. It really doesnt require a superhuman inisight to of predicted where the suspensions would of ended up.


Scapegoat? The scapegoat being the people who took the action at the seat of the problem? At the risk of falling into a typical fh retaliatory cliche - i'd advise just rechecking that scapegoat definition.


And neither should it be, but it's GoA and Requeil who made their bed, unfortunately we are all lying in it. Additionally, as people in seperate realms cant communicate in game, I really dont mind what language other realm players speak, and if some english people leave during an ensuing merge, then though its a loss, its not as much as would be gained from the increased population - infact, if you were being realistic, increased player numbers is more of a pull for people than the negative effect of cross language merge. So I find your logic here floored.

Anyhow, i'd rather hear some response from Req, but doesnt look like any will be fourthcoming as he has the belief that he took the best action for the cluster, despite all evidence to the contrary.

Before you take an action, you need to think what is the outcome you are trying to achieve. What outcome were suspensions trying to achieve at the time you handed them out Req? Have you achieved that outcome satisfactorily?

I've seen english speaking people posting that they don't want to have to cope with a foreign language and will leave in that situation. There have seemed to be problems in similar situations. Therefore my logic is that some english speaking people may leave.

You say that if some english people leave during a merge although its a loss its not as much as would be gained by the increased population. It is still a reduction in the size of the english speaking community.

If you wish me to elaborate about bigger mistakes, I think the biggest one was suggesting people go to the press about in game conflicts. Giving DAOC a bad press would hardly increase player numbers and be destructive for the game as a whole. That has to be a mistake if you want to keep the game alive. As you say, before you take an action, you need to think what outcome you are trying to achieve.

In this case I believe GOA did not make the bed that the Duvet is lying in. I believe the problem was division in the community and the belief that players should decide the rules of the game and impose them on each other. That does not work when there is bitter argument over the rules, it just leads to escalating hatred. Personally I think a neutral referee in a football match works better even if they aren't perfect all the time.

Anyway, its not my problem. I just sympathise with Requiel posting here when anything he says may be taken down and used in evidence against him. It is hard to see how he can wave a magic wand and fix everything when people refuse to admit they themselves are part of the problem.

 

[brad]

Banned for betrayal! lol, someone is having a laugh.

They should implement the option of civil war so all the role players can have some more fun!

Albs can be the communists in spain in 1936, and hibs/mids can be the fascists who sent troops over their to help Franco

I claim Germany!

You stinky hibs can have Italy!!

P.S. England rules :england:
France sucks!

 

[Collateral]

from a marketing point of view, i still can not figure out why daoc hasn´t been properly promoted in the last years. this is a case of pure incompetence and stupidity which is for me like a cut into his own hand.
ofc, the budget can not be compared with EA´s WoW, but still, i am astonished how dilettantic daoc has been marketed. i can´t believe that mythic isn´t interested in a bigger player base, so why no efforts to make it a bigger game. so, either the board consists of a bunch of retards or the dude responsible for marketing has a relationship with the CEO.

concerning AC:
with a healthy population, this whole thing wouldn´t be so tragic.
the problem is that a bunch of bored peeps raided a lot in the night which pissed of a fair share of the rest of the server. and because the server is quite low populated and it is very easy to reraid stuff back (and raid ofc) in the night for an infamous alb guild for example, people moved to servers where 1.) much more people online and 2.) it is much harder to raid/reraid.

the only way to safe the uk cluster is to cluster it with some other servers. there is absolutly no reason, why i should leave avalon, where you got everything. a huge 8vs8 community, epic fights (like marketed yeeeears ago - as someone told me) and a lot of pve stuff going on.

btw, i completly agree to the TT action...

 

[Cromcruaich]

I've seen english speaking people posting that they don't want to have to cope with a foreign language and will leave in that situation. There have seemed to be problems in similar situations. Therefore my logic is that some english speaking people may leave.

You say that if some english people leave during a merge although its a loss its not as much as would be gained by the increased population. It is still a reduction in the size of the english speaking community.

If you wish me to elaborate about bigger mistakes, I think the biggest one was suggesting people go to the press about in game conflicts. Giving DAOC a bad press would hardly increase player numbers and be destructive for the game as a whole. That has to be a mistake if you want to keep the game alive. As you say, before you take an action, you need to think what outcome you are trying to achieve.

In this case I believe GOA did not make the bed that the Duvet is lying in. I believe the problem was division in the community and the belief that players should decide the rules of the game and impose them on each other. That does not work when there is bitter argument over the rules, it just leads to escalating hatred. Personally I think a neutral referee in a football match works better even if they aren't perfect all the time.

Anyway, its not my problem. I just sympathise with Requiel posting here when anything he says may be taken down and used in evidence against him. It is hard to see how he can wave a magic wand and fix everything when people refuse to admit they themselves are part of the problem.

Aye thanks for considered reply. Like the duvet and bed bit

On the merge thing, I sincerely believe that it will bring more English people back to Duvet, certainly more that will leave, because (depending on the solution ofcourse) the language will make very little difference, whereas the increased numbers will. And as a lot of people are keen to point out - the TT incident itself wasnt the primary cause for some people to move. I may be wrong, however, I suspect that many people who still have active and inactive accounts who are now abroad would come back here - I can think of 24 pretty much immediately within NFD alone. So if I were a betting man, i'd bet I was right on this at least.


The TT incident, besides not actually achieving anything positive, did result in people leaving the server (I can actually name ones I know, I dont think i'm overstating the case that it was NFD leaving Hib/Pryd that had a not insignificant impact on the already failing hibernian population) and also served to further divide and polarise opinions, so in that respect, GoA werent perceived as being a neutral referee (even if they were trying to be) which is one of the core mistakes that was made.

Additionally, though in you penultimate paragraph you make a reasonable point, I dont think with regards the TT situation it is quite hits the mark - there was no argument over rules - TT's actions were within the ruleset of the game. The 'escalation of hatred' in the situation where no action was taken by GoA would of simply been restricted to TT and be for them to deal with within the context of their realm - as opposed to the situation we find ourselves in now where the handling of the problem was much more devicive than the problem itself. Again, I hope you can agree that between the two solutions of GoA not getting involved and GoA getting involved, that outcome wise it is the latter that would of had the best outcome for the cluster. If you disagree with this, then i'd be interested to hear how cluster would be worse off now if GoA hadn't handed out suspensions.

*edit
Finally regards the going to the press, yes I think in retrospect I agree that it could of had a negative outcome, then again, no publicity is bad publicity. Though i'm not sure Gary Glitter would agree.

ta again for the discussion.