A Discussion

[Kagato]

As several other people here have pointed out, without GOAs intervention, TT lowering the keep would have been dealt with by the community and blown over in the same way that similar incidents have always blown over. It was specifically the wielding of the ban stick that turned this into the issue it has become. IMO. Blaming TT isn't just shortsighted, it's wilfully wrong-headed. GOA taking sides in this issue is what's unprecedented here.

'Dealt with by the community' ? Im sorry but that simply does not cut it. How exactly will the community deal with such a harsh crime?

No inter-guild communication? Its not needed anyway, we have the /rw map

Not allowed on public raids? Im sure they will be really upset about that.

Extra whine on FH? they have proven already they get a kick out of this

Theres basically nothing at all that the community can do to punish something without breakin GOA rules themselves. Saying the community will deal with it is a cop out answer. Only GOA have the ability to punish.

Thanks for reply. Just a couple of points - you surely recognise the difference between TT's actions and a speed hacker? It does make it difficult at times having a serious discussion when you take that sort of direction, which you yourself i'm sure understand is not a fair comparison.

And secondly, equally Requeil could of operated within the remit of GoA and a managing GM to try and rectify the situation by speaking directly to TT GM's, before administering completely unexpected (and believed to be unjustified) suspensions.

Would you of preferred an outcome where the keep was put back to level 10, TT were restricted from claiming by the alb community because of their actions (self governance as mentioned) and bans werent handed out? Or do you infact just take a certain amount of pleasure from knowing those individuals were banned, even though it had a detrimental effect on the cluster as a whole?

Yes theres a big differance between speed hacking and this incident, the hack was just an example of a bannable offense, the point remains the same, GOA do not, and should not warn people before banning them, they never have, they never will, and the crime had already been commited regardless, so what the point in warning AFTER they have already done something, just because keeps take awhile to down grade.

Detrimental effect on the cluster? what effect? Personally im glad those people left the cluster, im happier without them here and theres still more then enough people if not to many for the kind of RvR I like.
The only downside to all this is all the shit here on the forums, and that they are to blame for themselves.

So though the incident started with TT, do you not in anyway consider that ensuing discussions wouldn't of happened without the response from Requiel and the GoA team? Arn't they even more culpable?

This has been pointed out before in this thread, but with the TT action, and no direct intervention by GoA this would of blown over after a week, once they got involved it changed the situation completely. I can't think of a single positive effect that resulted from GoA's choosen course of action, and that is very daming in my eyes.

No, i'd be far more disgusted with GOA if they chose not to act and let them get away with such a dispicable act.

As for positive effect, GOA proved that they can and will take action against people who cross-realm cheat, which this basically was. And for that I am happy and applaud them.

 

[Sharkith]

If you wish me to elaborate about bigger mistakes, I think the biggest one was suggesting people go to the press about in game conflicts. Giving DAOC a bad press would hardly increase player numbers and be destructive for the game as a whole. That has to be a mistake if you want to keep the game alive. As you say, before you take an action, you need to think what outcome you are trying to achieve.

This I disagree with. I think your being a bit naive. One of the best things about the press is that they scrutinise what you think and question it in serious depth. If you bring in a third party you are asking those people to come in as neutrals and comment on things and then assess it from a neutral perspective. In situations where there are two sides beating the shit out of each other it is often the best thing to do. If you don't believe me then say so but one of the first things a journalist said to me was - I will have complete right to say what I think on this wether you like it or not. Sometimes exposing yourself to that kind of scrutiny is healthy.

In terms of it being better for the game. What is worse in your eye Conway a company that professes the game is more important than its community and refuses to listen to what they are saying? Or a community that admits it has problems and that these might be to do with game design?

Sure I might over step a mark in this but one thing you can bet on is if GOA can respond in a reasonable manner I will stand down and applaud them. Telling people who say "I did this to grief these guys" that they did not grief them not ever is just bullshit of the highest order.

If you stop a little minute and review things you will see in fact that there is a loot of common ground here:

Both sides (except GOA) now agree that AC raids griefed people and that made baby jesus cry.
Both sides agree that this is a game design issue. GOA have not indicated they will even act on their behalf and sympathise with them. They have finally admitted this is a population issue but are mute on the fact that it could also be a game design issue. You figure out what the problem is....
Both sides agree there was little GOA could do about alarm clock raids - they agree with GOA. I am 100% with them on this although they could have maybe tried to empathise with us and alleviate the feelings of injustice.
Both sides admit that to some extent the TT thing should have been handled by the community differently. Yes yes and yes. GOA though stopped that from happening. edit: In fact even TT members admit that they should have been less hasty at some level I think they agree with Muly, Kagato and co that at some level more talking should have been done first.

In fact we agree on lots. We don't seem to agree with those very good people who run the game.

Sitting back I can see I took this in a very aggressive direction for that I am sorry. I just wish I felt that GOA could even begin to sympathise with the problems we experienced.

Finally Kagato - as someone who deliberately went to grief people in an AC raid I think you should stop a bit, take a deep breath and step back. The game mechanics allowed you to do that. What is more wrong the game mechanics or the fact that people have strong feelings?

 

[ambera]

Kagato ranted:

'Dealt with by the community' ? Im sorry but that simply does not cut it. How exactly will the community deal with such a harsh crime?

No inter-guild communication? Its not needed anyway, we have the /rw map

Not allowed on public raids? Im sure they will be really upset about that.

Extra whine on FH? they have proven already they get a kick out of this

Theres basically nothing at all that the community can do to punish something without breakin GOA rules themselves. Saying the community will deal with it is a cop out answer. Only GOA have the ability to punish.

Ah, Kagato, you see the fundamental difference in our stances is that I do not beleive either that there was a 'crime' that demanded punishment OR that the majority of albs felt that there was a 'crime' that demanded punishment. So I don't think that the community's inability to PUNISH people would ever have arisen as a serious issue. (Incidentally I think punishment is not a useful response to an action arising from a complex situation. It's brutal and ineffective. It assumes too much. Even if all albs had agreed that some punishment was appropriate, which I do not think they would have).

However, there are sanctions you can take against people who's actions upset you, such as those you have suggested, and in any situation where there has NOT been a clear breach of game rules (which there certainly wasn't in TTs case), that is far more appropriate than seeking intervention from on high.

 

[Appollo]

There was no crime...

 

[Rushie]

Yes theres a big differance between speed hacking and this incident, the hack was just an example of a bannable offense, the point remains the same, GOA do not, and should not warn people before banning them, they never have, they never will, and the crime had already been commited regardless, so what the point in warning AFTER they have already done something, just because keeps take awhile to down grade.

Detrimental effect on the cluster? what effect? Personally im glad those people left the cluster, im happier without them here and theres still more then enough people if not to many for the kind of RvR I like.
The only downside to all this is all the shit here on the forums, and that they are to blame for themselves.

The crime had already been commited? how can that be when it wasnt even a crime untill the bans came with no warnings, as far as we were aware it was within our rights to do so as it is a feature in game. if it wasnt then we wouldnt have done it.

I would still challenge goa to produce evidence on how we set out to cause grief by this action? (we did it to make a stand btw) requiel has said they had evidence which led them to the banning's, where is this evidence? we talk on voice comm's and never said anything in game about this, so if u have any chat logs i would sure like to see them and u have my guilds full backing to waive any privacy policys and publish these as we have nothing to hide.

 

[Ging]

omfg chat logs of a scottish chav conversing with gooner chav about the new elizebeth duke range of gold plated mounted glassware thats a must have status symbol when dealing with mad scientist no dex @ creation guildford chav!!!

 

[Rushie]

omfg chat logs of a scottish chav conversing with gooner chav about the new elizebeth duke range of gold plated mounted glassware thats a must have status symbol when dealing with mad scientist no dex @ creation guildford chav!!!

hush u!! we all know ur still mad that wee ginger chav took all ur money at poker

 

[Conway]

Aye thanks for considered reply. Like the duvet and bed bit

Yep, couldn't resist the Duvet.

I think I have a gloomier view of the resistance of the english to learning other languages than you do.

As for if GOA hadn't acted, and had effectively taken the opposing side, I dunno. I expect there would have been an equal lot of aggro and a different set might have left. The appeal of drama had got too high all round. I doubt the escalation of hatred would have been limited to between TT and the opposing lot in their realm because everyone would naturally take sides.

Would it have been better or worse? It might have been better. Everyone might have done a group hug and lived happily ever after. It might have been worse. By a couple of very short account bans, GOA clearly signalled there was a point at which they would intervene in the fight and confiscate the weapons. If they hadn't done that then possibly there would have been a further upping of the hostility level. We can only speculate as to what that would be. Given the adrenaline flowing around it is even possible someone could have done something seriously silly, like punch real life noses.

Whether TTs actions were within the ruleset of the game is clearly a debatable point since this is one hell of a long thread debating it. I would expect they realised what they were doing was at the least controversial and potentially annoying to fellow realm mates. I think releasing the keep would have made their opinion clear and if other albion guilds also released keeps in protest then it would have achieved the goal of making it easier to restore the relic balance. Then there would have been no martyrs and we could have all saved a lot of typing time.

Anyway, nice that you are happy to think and discuss. Good luck to Duvet.

 

[Ging]

hush u!! we all know ur still mad that wee ginger chav took all ur money at poker

y, i r shit @ poker!!!

still i had the satisfaction of keeping the **** awake all night with my drunken snoring!

 

[Conway]

This I disagree with. I think your being a bit naive. One of the best things about the press is that they scrutinise what you think and question it in serious depth. If you bring in a third party you are asking those people to come in as neutrals and comment on things and then assess it from a neutral perspective. In situations where there are two sides beating the shit out of each other it is often the best thing to do. If you don't believe me then say so but one of the first things a journalist said to me was - I will have complete right to say what I think on this wether you like it or not. Sometimes exposing yourself to that kind of scrutiny is healthy.

We will not agree on this because I believe that taking in game problems to the press is the worst move for all those concerned who wish DAOC to continue in the future. Not only is it likely to increase the hostility level all round, you greatly damage the game. The press are in my experience seriously bad at reporting facts, they will go for juicy quotes of people being nasty to each other. Readers will look at it, and all they will come away with is DAOC = aggro, stay away from the game. What it does is label DAOC worldwide with one clusters problems.

In my opinion it is a move that is only good if you want revenge on the company at all costs.

Put it this way, if your marriage is in trouble I do not believe the best way to save it is to discuss your problems on the Oprah Winfrey show in front of a large audience.



That is my belief.

Sitting back I can see I took this in a very aggressive direction for that I am sorry. I just wish I felt that GOA could even begin to sympathise with the problems we experienced.

That was what was worrying me. Sit back again and consider just maybe Requiel cares too and is doing his best with a lot of flack being thrown in his direction.

 

[Gahn]

I've seen english speaking people posting that they don't want to have to cope with a foreign language and will leave in that situation. There have seemed to be problems in similar situations. Therefore my logic is that some english speaking people may leave.

You say that if some english people leave during a merge although its a loss its not as much as would be gained by the increased population. It is still a reduction in the size of the english speaking community.

If you wish me to elaborate about bigger mistakes, I think the biggest one was suggesting people go to the press about in game conflicts. Giving DAOC a bad press would hardly increase player numbers and be destructive for the game as a whole. That has to be a mistake if you want to keep the game alive. As you say, before you take an action, you need to think what outcome you are trying to achieve.

In this case I believe GOA did not make the bed that the Duvet is lying in. I believe the problem was division in the community and the belief that players should decide the rules of the game and impose them on each other. That does not work when there is bitter argument over the rules, it just leads to escalating hatred. Personally I think a neutral referee in a football match works better even if they aren't perfect all the time.

Anyway, its not my problem. I just sympathise with Requiel posting here when anything he says may be taken down and used in evidence against him. It is hard to see how he can wave a magic wand and fix everything when people refuse to admit they themselves are part of the problem.

Seems Requiel got another FH account after all xD

 

[Flimgoblin]

Seems Requiel got another FH account after all xD

Ah yes, because noone could possibly agree with Requiel without actually being him.



Noone is allowed to think anything other than what Gahn things from now on.

 

[Gahn]

Ah yes, because noone could possibly agree with Requiel without actually being him.



Noone is allowed to think anything other than what Gahn things from now on.

Your sense of humor is at an all time low Flim, being bitter? ^^

 

[Conway]

Seems Requiel got another FH account after all xD

If you think I'm Requiel he not only got another FH account, he got a sex change too.

 

[Gahn]

If you think I'm Requiel he not only got another FH account, he got a sex change too.

Impossible afaik! He went to holis but not @ Casablanca! -.-
Let me try turn it in something funny at least since serious discussion about it is impossible ^^

 

[charmangle]

Yes theres a big differance between speed hacking and this incident, the hack was just an example of a bannable offense, the point remains the same, GOA do not, and should not warn people before banning them, they never have, they never will, and the crime had already been commited regardless, so what the point in warning AFTER they have already done something, just because keeps take awhile to down grade.

What are you talking about?
GoA has ALWAYS warned before banning people on offences. The first time they didnt was the TT incident.

They warn people by having clear and specific rules, telling you that you might get banned if you break it. Thats a warning and thats how it should be. They choose not to create such a rule in the TT incident. The never choose to add to the CoC that its against the rules to lower the lvl of a relic keep or anything like that. SO this was the first case where they didnt warn the population about an offence.

Im guessing you are thinking of a personal warning before a ban, but thats not what anyone else in this discussion is talking about. No one expects GoA to warn a single person that his action is against the rules. But they should go out and define any new desitions about the rules that they have made to the population.

/Charmangle

 

[Kagato]

Of cause they had warning, what they did was nothing less then cross realming, you don't need to be a rocket scientist to know doing so, so blatently will get you banned.

To be honest they were lucky to get away with 5 days, i'd of given it two weeks at least and if possible resets all guild bp's down to 0 to prevent further claiming.
Thankfully though that wouldn't be needed now they have left, and Albion is better of without them.

 

[Rushie]

Of cause they had warning, what they did was nothing less then cross realming, you don't need to be a rocket scientist to know doing so, so blatently will get you banned.

To be honest they were lucky to get away with 5 days, i'd of given it two weeks at least and if possible resets all guild bp's down to 0 to prevent further claiming.
Thankfully though that wouldn't be needed now they have left, and Albion is better of without them.

You really are a prick.

 

[trycorn]

Of cause they had warning, what they did was nothing less then cross realming, you don't need to be a rocket scientist to know doing so, so blatently will get you banned.

To be honest they were lucky to get away with 5 days, i'd of given it two weeks at least and if possible resets all guild bp's down to 0 to prevent further claiming.
Thankfully though that wouldn't be needed now they have left, and Albion is better of without them.

its funny isnt it, that alb never lost anything, the relic only left renaris long after the keep was back @ 9/10 and there4 was there actualy never commited a crime...

 

[Tuthmes]

Of cause they had warning, what they did was nothing less then cross realming, you don't need to be a rocket scientist to know doing so, so blatently will get you banned.

To be honest they were lucky to get away with 5 days, i'd of given it two weeks at least and if possible resets all guild bp's down to 0 to prevent further claiming.
Thankfully though that wouldn't be needed now they have left, and Albion is better of without them.

Less roleplaying on FH's Fagato

 

[anioal]

Of cause they had warning, what they did was nothing less then cross realming, you don't need to be a rocket scientist to know doing so, so blatently will get you banned.

crossrealming? you also mentioned bit early in the thread the word crime?

are you real?

how about the mids that took the relic from hibs and dropped it in front of APK? were any measures taken against them?
after all they did a double "crime", first one working against their realm - the entire mid realm could benefit from that relic. the second one being a strong insult for albion - i mean wtf, it's like: you hereby have won the great prize in this contest, doenst matter the fact that you didnt actually participated in the contest.

 

[brad]

Your sense of humor is at an all time low Flim, being bitter? ^^

Isn't he always bitter lol? Aghh he yar hee pirates, lets lock the thread as i don't agree with it, yar he pirates!!!

 

[brad]

Of cause they had warning, what they did was nothing less then cross realming, you don't need to be a rocket scientist to know doing so, so blatently will get you banned.

To be honest they were lucky to get away with 5 days, i'd of given it two weeks at least and if possible resets all guild bp's down to 0 to prevent further claiming.
Thankfully though that wouldn't be needed now they have left, and Albion is better of without them.

lol please.

 

[Everz]

Of cause they had warning, what they did was nothing less then cross realming, you don't need to be a rocket scientist to know doing so, so blatently will get you banned.

To be honest they were lucky to get away with 5 days, i'd of given it two weeks at least and if possible resets all guild bp's down to 0 to prevent further claiming.
Thankfully though that wouldn't be needed now they have left, and Albion is better of without them.

yus, already see the cobwebs forming about the corpse that once was excal and pryd.

 

[eble@work]

Of cause they had warning, what they did was nothing less then cross realming, you don't need to be a rocket scientist to know doing so, so blatently will get you banned.

To be honest they were lucky to get away with 5 days, i'd of given it two weeks at least and if possible resets all guild bp's down to 0 to prevent further claiming.
Thankfully though that wouldn't be needed now they have left, and Albion is better of without them.

Does this monkey even play the English cluster, silly question it might seem, but the experience he's having are like someone being on drugs,

When you see 2-3 fg's hibs roaming, I'll point out thats actually 2-3 hibs!

This whole TT incident has had a massive effect on Hib, I believe its been about the same on Mid, no idea what happened to the Albs.

I'll tell you something for a fact, before the TT thing, I would log on, about 8am to 12pm everyday, now near crauch you could get any number of 1v1 or duo's or even FG roaming, almost constant action.

People might say like WTF thats too early, yeah well that is the case, but, when the population dies out at certain times it had a knock on effect.

Example - 20 people in RVR at 10am, people log in at around 11 think some action in RVR i'll go out and have a look, and so on, people log in at 12 ok 30 people in RVR must be something up.

Now whats really happening - 10am /who NF 2 people, me and my BB, no action - people log in at 11am /send eble anything in NF mate, nope all dead here, ok cheers mate.

Yeah , yeah TT thing didn't effect RVR at all, but wait Albion are better off for it - whoopee

Welcome to the future of The English Cluster, Kagato join the Horner zerg not much else going on in RVR we still have a few Keeps/Twrs out there, but watch out for Horner has a nasty habbit of getting outskilled by the guards

Eble.

 

[Belisar]

One of the best things about the press is that they scrutinise what you think and question it in serious depth. If you bring in a third party you are asking those people to come in as neutrals and comment on things and then assess it from a neutral perspective.

Eeek

I agree with a lot of what you say Sharky but not this.

From personal experience I can tell you that the press can and have written articles with no investigation, no personal knowledge, no scrutiny and no neutral perspective. Their perspective is to sell their story.

How reflective that is on journalism as a whole I cannot say, but first hand experience would not be leading me to trust the press.

Theres basically nothing at all that the community can do to punish something without breakin GOA rules themselves. Saying the community will deal with it is a cop out answer. Only GOA have the ability to punish.

Yup I agree. GOA have done nothing about AC raids despite the fact that masses of people moaned about them and said they would be the death of the server. When players took a stand they got punished thus proving only GOA have the ability to do anything. They have reserved that right for themselves.

What could GOA do ? Well tbh I am not sure, but some acknowledgement that there was an issue would have been a start.

It would also be good to hear what thought processes or investigations GOA have undertaken. Have they liaised with Mythic, have they explored and eliminated other possibilities or is the full extent of their thought process to create a thread on FH ?

Detrimental effect on the cluster? what effect? Personally im glad those people left the cluster, im happier without them here and theres still more then enough people if not to many for the kind of RvR I like.

And here is the selfish attitude that lead you to AC raid in the first place. You are happier but it is clear that there are a lot of people who are not. Numbers are down, activity is down and it is only getting worse. Will you be happy when there is no RvR at all, at least you can say you won.

The only downside to all this is all the shit here on the forums, and that they are to blame for themselves.

If it is so shit then do not come here and keep fanning the flames. If there were no AC raids or if people had realised the effect they were having then none of this would have happened. No one would have left. The server would be a happier and far more active place.

 

[Tuthmes]

Does this monkey even play the English cluster, silly question it might seem, but the experience he's having are like someone being on drugs,

When you see 2-3 fg's hibs roaming, I'll point out thats actually 2-3 hibs!

This whole TT incident has had a massive effect on Hib, I believe its been about the same on Mid, no idea what happened to the Albs.

I'll tell you something for a fact, before the TT thing, I would log on, about 8am to 12pm everyday, now near crauch you could get any number of 1v1 or duo's or even FG roaming, almost constant action.

People might say like WTF thats too early, yeah well that is the case, but, when the population dies out at certain times it had a knock on effect.

Example - 20 people in RVR at 10am, people log in at around 11 think some action in RVR i'll go out and have a look, and so on, people log in at 12 ok 30 people in RVR must be something up.

Now whats really happening - 10am /who NF 2 people, me and my BB, no action - people log in at 11am /send eble anything in NF mate, nope all dead here, ok cheers mate.

Yeah , yeah TT thing didn't effect RVR at all, but wait Albion are better off for it - whoopee

Welcome to the future of The English Cluster, Kagato join the Horner zerg not much else going on in RVR we still have a few Keeps/Twrs out there, but watch out for Horner has a nasty habbit of getting outskilled by the guards

Eble.

Yeah it is kinda funny how the people saying, nah people left cause of some other reason (name whatever) are always from albion. Sure some left because of the fg action whas kinda low here, but certainly the AC/TT bs made a lot of people leave. Just dig up the old thread again....
Today this afternoon whas an alltime low again. Nearly no hibs, 2mids, and 3fg of albs. Can't blaim em for zerging my ass, cause its probebly all they come across once every hour. But it isnt helping me logon tbh.

 

[Raven]

Of cause they had warning, what they did was nothing less then cross realming, you don't need to be a rocket scientist to know doing so, so blatently will get you banned.

To be honest they were lucky to get away with 5 days, i'd of given it two weeks at least and if possible resets all guild bp's down to 0 to prevent further claiming.
Thankfully though that wouldn't be needed now they have left, and Albion is better of without them.

what i am pissed off with is that people had been lowering keep levels in hib for ages to get insta rvr which usually resulted in the loss of relics for us (don't seem to remember you being pissed off about that) when people did complain or ask if it was legal to lower the keeps goa said it was fine.

They took the easy option with the suspensions and messed up, period. they should have issued a warning to the community, on here or on the goa home page and forced the keep level back up to level 10.

 

[Sharkith]

Eeek

I agree with a lot of what you say Sharky but not this.

From personal experience I can tell you that the press can and have written articles with no investigation, no personal knowledge, no scrutiny and no neutral perspective. Their perspective is to sell their story.

How reflective that is on journalism as a whole I cannot say, but first hand experience would not be leading me to trust the press.

aye Belis good point but have you seen any evidence of mis reporting yet? I will email you any coverage this gets and your welcome to come back here and hold me responsible. I have yet tyo see anything corroborating your claims and Conways. I sometimes feel its all alot of smoke to avoid the real issue.

Conway where did this particular thing result in major problems?

Look closer to home. I don't see anyone refuting the facts I put before you all. So finally ask yourself Conway, Belis and GOA what are the real facts here? Look around you. Do you see any real serious objections that the people here agree the following:

• this is a game design issue and GOA point blank refuse to address or even recognise it. I see Flim and GOA your silent on this one. Yet it is not in peoples heads especially when they tell you they USED THE GAME TO BEAT THE SHIT OUT OF EACH OTHER.

• Both sides (except GOA) now agree that AC raids griefed people. Even people have agreed they did it to grief people and GOA deny this is a reality!!

• Both sides agree that this is a game design issue. GOA have not indicated they will even act on their behalf and sympathise with them.

• Both sides agree there was little GOA could do about alarm clock raids - they agree with GOA. In fact I am with them here.

• Both sides admit that the TT thing should have been handled by the community differently.

As yet I see no serious challenges to these facts. If you want to disagree say so now.

If anything the pro TT people have more to object to.

So answer the questions then.

Finally you can start a discussion but if you don't even try to engage your worse that the people fighting.

 

[Awarkle]

imagine that you are playing in a different time zone everyone in your group/guild is in a different time zone. You decide to take the relicsat silly oclock in the morning (our time) however for you its prime time. (what ever that is) now you spend all your gaming time getting the relic and returning it to a guild keep that you think will be strong enough to hold it.

Only to find that the guild holding it didnt apretiate your guild spending time getting the relic so reset the keep to lvl 1.

Is it fair that your realm mates have basically given the relic to the other realms and no matter how much you ask you cant say "hey release the keep" and we wil take over.

I wasnt around for the whole TT fiasco but what i dont understand is that the majority of people who claim they didnt agree with TT went over to avalon they didnt quit.

In the end GOA may have been heavy handed but what was stopping TT from going ok we lowered our keep down to lvl 1 we can now log on to whatever realm and go raid that keep take the relic for realm xx. That is what i beleive goa wanted to stop.

Lowering a keep for IRVR is different than lowering a relic keep for your realm to raid OR even return. if they really felt bad for it they should have just released the keep and let anotehr guild take over they arnt forced to defend that keep. Hell they could have logged onto the other realm and organised a retake while it was still increasing in rank. Either way they did it badly.