A CT GM's view of the ML9 incident...

[Marc]

your lack of somthing to throw back is shining thru.. starting to correct gramma.. uke:

It was a valid point to make. If you cant see that, then you are as stupid as bugzy

 

[Bugz]

Go easy on Bugzy, his hormones will be all over the place due to puberty.

Nick, chill out. You are just making yourself look like an asshole

I can understand you defending your guild mates but if your going to act like the rest then you can just bugger off Marc.

/Losing respect for you.

 

[Bugz]

It's "you're" from YOU ARE. "Your" = possessive as in 'Your balls haven't dropped yet'. Someone who claims to be so intelligent should know that at 16. Making mistakes in a sentence while callling someone stupid is

Weak arguement.

I can type perfectly fine when I want to. A forum is not to be used to demonstrate how to do grammar properly

Aye, I'm sure he can't sleep at all. Seriously, leave it out - take that finger off F5 and chill, do something else. I remember when I had my holidays, I was out with my mates - You'll regret not doing so, when you eventually get a fulltime job.

Do my job in the morning so I get all day to revise and argue on FH


edit:

4 The point inside the earth where the pressure is released is called the:
a
- Epicentre
Incorrect.
Well done. The focus is the point inside the earth where the pressure is released.

Haha xD

 

[Nerve]

Weak arguement.

I can type perfectly fine when I want to. A forum is not to be used to demonstrate how to do grammar properly

Neither to make a complete fool out of yourself. It's 'argument' btw...

 

[evzy]

Fine, you have to be a c**t and have guts

Yes, i'm bored and Bitesize is boring me too.

Again.... I don't see what guts has to do with it - but then I don't have the clouded judgement of a teenage mind anymore

If you think he is "Da Man" for ripping off a 100 people, then you really need to sit down and maybe start thinking about evaluating your outlook on life and behaviour in general....

But then from someone who is 15 then your attitude and comments don't really surprise me tbh

 

[Flimgoblin]

CT always puts its members first, thats the way its always been, hes been punished bt way of demotion......jarvio also offered to leave the guild, to which i told him no.
If ppl wanna punish the rest of CT thats upto them, but this angry mob/ hang jarvio thing wont make us boot him...

That's fair enough - you're perfectly entitled to do that.

But don't expect everyone in albion to treat Jarvio the same way, or to not associate "Chaos Theory" with "item-stealing-wanker".

 

[Nerve]

What's taking the mods so long btw

 

[Marc]

I can understand you defending your guild mates but if your going to act like the rest then you can just bugger off Marc.

/Losing respect for you.

Its not about defending my guild mates. They have done nothing wrong. You DO have an unwarranted ego nick. That is fact

 

[Bugz]

Again.... I don't see what guts has to do with it - but then I don't have the clouded judgement of a teenage mind anymore

If you think he is "Da Man" for ripping off a 100 people, then you really need to sit down and maybe start thinking about evaluating your outlook on life and behaviour in general....

But then from someone who is 15 then your attitude and comments don't really surprise me tbh

Yeah, I've stated several times he is 'da man' and i'm going round to his house to use aim bots on counterstrike with him.

Try reading all the related threads, edit timer may still be ready for when you get back.

Go easy on Bugzy, his hormones will be all over the place due to puberty.

Its not about defending my guild mates. They have done nothing wrong. You DO have an unwarranted ego nick. That is fact

So why bring age into this? I'm not all over the place due to puberty. I'm sitting here on a chair, with a bottle of water surfing FH and Bitesize. I am not on porn, I am not chatting up people on msn etc. You bring age into this because it's the only valid argument you got. I bring ego into this because it's the only defence I feel I can use. I never got on my high-horses and started handing our 'get a clues' etc. until someone commented on my age, which apparently decides my attitude, intelligence and all of that stuff.

They haven't done anything wrong. Neither have I. I got flamed (properly not the right word) for giving rep to a guy that said he simply didn't give a fuck what his guildies do because he enjoys playing with them and he thinks their sound. That is commitment and passion. Then people begun preaching how I should join CT and how I am saying Jarvio's actions were unjustified.

Check out the other threads on this matter. I even said somewhere 'if you want to ban Jarvio from raids, go for it.' He deserves it, he was a cock to you guys. Fair enough. However, that doesn't mean I hate him, have to flame him or have to another sheep in a pack. I think he deserves a gratz for having the guts etc. to do such a thing and I also think his GM is the type of GM i'd want to have - although perhaps a little too lenient on the incident as a whole.

 

[Tilda]

I remeber a certain person wanting to join the smurf army (another CT off shot fun idea..) so you Can sit the fuck down

I joined the smurf arm you cocksmoker!
Thus my first post in the thread, defending CT

 

[Dukat]

9 pages later and its degraded into an outright slagging match.

This thread is going nowhere, Sock's said his point of view, the CT GM's have punished jarvio and everyones had thier say, half the last few posts have hardly even been about jarvio anyway ffs.

Time to give it a rest surely?

 

[Nerve]

No way, we're havin' clean fun in here

 

[Bugz]

No way, we're havin' clean fun in here

Aye

 

[evzy]

K IBTL then!

~reserves the right to pop back on to post some more if we get another few pages outta this tho!~

 

[Xrystofer]

Hi guys

Right then, I know you're probably sick of all the ML9 posts etc, but as I've only just been informed of it, and seen what's been going on, I thought it might aswell give you my view... get a coffee, as like most of my other posts it's probably gonna be a long read.

Firstly, what he did was wrong - end of, no 2 ways about it... but I also can't help but laugh. Jarvio is a complete cock, as has been said... actually no, sorry - let me rephrase that. He's not a complete cock at all, he's a selfish immature fucker - SOMETIMES - but he's also a good laugh, and can actually be a sound chap. He makes me belly laugh sometimes, and other times I just wanna pan his face in with a mouldy baguette - but that's him. You all know EXACTLY what he's like.

The question I ask is... you do ALL know what he's like, so who's the idiot in this equation? Liam for nicking all the shit from ML9, or you lot for going on it knowing what he's like? If this was Counter Strike - he'd have a wallhack and an aimbot - that's just the kind of guy he is.

Anyhoo, the reason I'm posting is more at being pissed off with the comments that you bunch of band-wagon jumping pekkers have all decided to pipe up with. What Jarvio did he did off his own back, and there's nothing we as a guild can do about it now to rectify the situation, even if we wanted to. Comments like "Oh he's in CT what do you expect" and all that shite about Dark Wolves and all that "but not as good" bollox is poppycock. We'd never even heard of em when we did the things we did, and the only reason we did them was because we'd just had enough of conforming to the elitist attitude of all the little pricks on here - and u3er gamers so we decided to break the mould a little bit. Shame some people are so anal that they can't just let bygones be.

In addition to that, people like Flimgoblin posting calling us all tossers is fine - but don't forget who spent a few nights playing with our stealth group, sitting on our TS having "a damn good laugh" to quote what you said. I get fucked off with people who change their opinions of people like their socks, and only do what suits that moment. We're honest, if we don't like you we'll tell you, and if we do we'll do almost anything for you. CT as a guild are a bunch of sound people, who sometimes just don't put up with the shite that other people will. Take it, or run off crying to yer mammys. It's like some of you are too shit scared to just pipe up and say "No, CT are alright, it's just the odd one or two that are dicks" because you don't want to be frowned upon or sneered at by your friends in their big gangs, in case they dont play with you anymore because you knock about with "the smelly kids". I've never known such a playground, schoolboy attitude in a game.

Now I can't do anything about what's happened anyway, as I've hung up me cloak and stealthy sword for pretty much good I think now - and it's in part because of peoples attitude like this that I gave up. No one in CT condones what Liam did at all, I can vouch for that 100% - but in the same vein, no one cares about being "banned from raids" or anything else for that matter. CT have been before, and more than likely will be again - flavour of the month - we're the guild you all love to hate, and that suits us fine. If you want to omit CT from anything you do in the future, I don't think anyone's going to care, and if everyone leaves CT apart from the main couple - again, I dont think they'll care. I just think it's a stupid attitude to take.

That's about it really from me... along with Washington we're the heart of CT - we formed the guild back in the very beginning and we've seen it go from strength, to nothing, to strength again, to Jarvio lol. At the end of the day, it's just a game, you pay you play - your call, but try not to get to anal about it all, and if not, well...

FUCK YOU ALL.

there is somethink u can do, kick him from guild.....if u dont u just with him
if u want that kind of ppl in your guild so be it u will just pay the price

 

[Belomar]

I comprehend the situation very well. And if you read my other post I gave Gratz to Jarvio for having the guts and determination to pull it off.

Eh, yes, good on you for thinking like this, and you wonder why people attack you? You somehow seem to think that the moral issues (i.e. scamming) can be separated from the practical ones (i.e. being able to pull it off). They can't, because for people like Jarvio the moral issues go away automatically, and in the real world everything is connected. In essence, you could just as well be saying that you admire a serial killer's technique--it won't make you popular, especially not among the victims' families. Many might agree that the end do not justify the means, but by the same token the means do not justify the end.

Anyway, rule number one of forum posting is to know when to stop. You have much to learn still, my young Padawan.

 

[Bugz]

Eh, yes, good on you for thinking like this, and you wonder why people attack you? You somehow seem to think that the moral issues (i.e. scamming) can be separated from the practical ones (i.e. being able to pull it off). They can't, because for people like Jarvio the moral issues go away automatically, and in the real world everything is connected. In essence, you could just as well be saying that you admire a serial killer's technique--it won't make you popular, especially not among the victims' families. Many might agree that the end do not justify the means, but by the same token the means do not justify the end.

Anyway, rule number one of forum posting is to know when to stop. You have much to learn still, my young Padawan.

Why be a sheep and say the moral issues which 50+ pepps had already posted and moaned about? No need to be honest. Oh ye, this isn't the real world by the way, so pointless arguement there. In the real world you'd probably be arrested, Req. stated this isn't an illegal offence to the extent GoA won't punish. So you CANNOT compare.

I think you can use the last comment on yourself there Belo

 

[Mishal]

plz dont lock this thread . plz plz plz plz .. the first 3 pages was quite funny, and im sure the next 10 are too....

:worthy:

 

[Tilda]

Why be a sheep and say the moral issues which 50+ pepps had already posted and moaned about? No need to be honest. Oh ye, this isn't the real world by the way, so pointless arguement there. In the real world you'd probably be arrested, Req. stated this isn't an illegal offence to the extent GoA won't punish. So you CANNOT compare.

I think you can use the last comment on yourself there Belo

This is the real world, if someone really wanted to, they could sue you for your comments in game or on FH, so its pointless to say that tbh. There was a case in China a while ago where the police were called when a guy stole someones item.
I haven't looked at it really, but I dont see why it couldnt happen in this case.

 

[evzy]

Bugz .... stop picking on small points trying to worm ya way out of it - you have chosen to defend someone who is a thief and liar...which is your choice..but stop being surprised at people having a go at you - you are lucky the 100+ people who got ripped off aren't all signed up to FH and reading this thread as I am sure the abuse Jarvio/Chaos Theory/Yourself would all get would be a lot lot worse with all 100 of em posting...

Simple matter of fact from here on the only way I can protest directly is that I won't do any business directly with Chaos Theory and its members - if I see something on a house for sale I need and its a CT house..then I would rather wait to buy it tbh. If any of them need my help in anyway they won't get it.
Its not a lot, but if everyone else did similar maybe it would be something.

The fact they haven't kicked him out of the guild means I will tar them all with the same brush regardless tbh - if they kicked him he no doubt would struggle to find another one stupid enough to take him and maybe that would give him a slight kick up the arse that he desperately needs. But the fact is they pulled his rank - means nothing really that does it - crocodile tears tbh.

 

[Bugz]

This is the real world, if someone really wanted to, they could sue you for your comments in game or on FH, so its pointless to say that tbh. There was a case in China a while ago where the police were called when a guy stole someones item.
I haven't looked at it really, but I dont see why it couldnt happen in this case.

But surely if it's not illegal in GoA's eyes then they couldn't sue but yeah, I heard about that ^^

I have no idea how British/American law works however

 

[Dukat]

Bugz, mate, I hate to say it but belomar had a point with his last post.

I really cant see how the serial killer comparison doesnt work, its a valid point.

You clapping at jarvio for his technique while there are 100 or more people out there getting in a stew about it really isnt going to endear you to them is it?

This may be a virtual messageboard etc but real world moral and ethical rules still apply, if not why would FH enforce a code of conduct like they do?

Its good(in a way) that you've stuck to CT through all this, you've gotten your point across, so has just about everyone else with a keyboard and a browser agree to disagree or this just aint going to stop.

 

[Bugz]

Bugz .... stop picking on small points trying to worm ya way out of it - you have chosen to defend someone who is a thief and liar...which is your choice..but stop being surprised at people having a go at you - you are lucky the 100+ people who got ripped off aren't all signed up to FH and reading this thread as I am sure the abuse Jarvio/Chaos Theory/Yourself would all get would be a lot lot worse with all 100 of em posting...

That's what you fail to comprehend and many others do.

Never, ever, in this whole arguement have I defended Jarvio. I invite you to find a post where I defend his actions. I'm not trying to worm my way out because i'm still posting, partly because i have fuck all to do and partly because I wish to show you guys how fed up I am of your stereotyping crap.

If you think I jump on small points, have a look at the posts by others. Age-related arguments, incorrect arguments, even an argument regarding Harry Potter. I laughed out load at that one. This has escalated far more than it should have done, not just because of the fact I will never give up in proving my point/argument, but also because people like to jump on the bandwagon and accuse when they don't understand.

Bugz, mate, I hate to say it but belomar had a point with his last post.

I really cant see how the serial killer comparison doesnt work, its a valid point.

You clapping at jarvio for his technique while there are 100 or more people out there getting in a stew about it really isnt going to endear you to them is it?

This may be a virtual messageboard etc but real world moral and ethical rules still apply, if not why would FH enforce a code of conduct like they do?

Its good(in a way) that you've stuck to CT through all this, you've gotten your point across, so has just about everyone else with a keyboard and a browser agree to disagree or this just aint going to stop.

Fair point. It does compare but the severity of the two are all-so different. You tend not to mention admiration towards serial killers in public even if you do admire them because in real life, it can get very sticky. This is on a forum with a bunch of players from around the globe and is made for opinions.

Finally, someone has understood what I'm getting at though. I am clapping at his technique. Nothing else.

 

[Aadia]

The ones that know when to duck might not mind but they're not going to invite their friends along for a quiet drink at the same table.

Flim... you lost me here

 

[Vandrakken]

tbh everyone is entitled to their opinions so trying to make people see ur point of view over this prob isnt going to work when people feel so strongly on both sides. This isnt directed at any one person.. its purely a remark to "sum-up" the general feel of the "X" number of threads about the scam.

Granted.. it was an effective way of scamming people but irrespective of what people say or think he will be shunned from most areas of daoc indefinitely.

I think just about everyone who wanted to make their point has done so now, and although there are some amounts of humour to be read here no more reminding will make things any better or worse for those who scammed the group.

I for one was on that raid and had no idea who the BG leader was until the raid had ended and one thing is for sure... I wont forget what happened as a result of the echoes in FH. There are threads in other places making sure people dont forget.

In the end I think each individual person who pays and plays will deal with it as they see fit..ultimately that will be in game.

 

[Tilda]

But surely if it's not illegal in GoA's eyes then they couldn't sue but yeah, I heard about that ^^

I have no idea how British/American law works however

Breaking the Coc and national law are two totally different things.

I could advertise Cola in game and break the COC, however, its not illegal so do that irl.
I could kill someone in game, and not break the CoC however if I did it in rl it is illegal.

So lets look into this:

"...the dishonest appropriation of property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it" is what the Theft Act 1968 says.
I'm just going to copy-paste from Wiki as my statute book and criminal notes are downstairs in a box.

The five elements of the offence are defined sequentially in the Act:

• Section 2 dishonesty;

R v Ghosh test - where the D's actions dishonest by the standards of a reasonable and honest man, and if yes, did the D realise he was dishonest by these standards. Here the answer is probably a yes, by the reaction on the forum and Jarvios actions in the BG, its fairly certain he was dishonest.

• Section 3 "appropriation" which occurs when the defendant wrongfully asserts the rights of ownership over the property. This can be by physical taking, but it will also include many different situations in which a person may have lawfully come into possession of the property and then keeps (i.e. a failure to return or omission or uses the property in an unauthorised way;

This is a little harder, but he's lawfully come into posession of the loot by being raid leader, however, it turns to appropriation when he fails to lotto it.

• Section 4 "property" includes all personalty, i.e. land itself cannot be stolen but anything severed from the land (with the exception of wild flowers) can be stolen, as can intangible property such as a chose in action;

Under this section, he may have a defence, you could in theory class drops as property, as they can change posession and confer a benefit on whoever owns them. However, I believe, that the goa coc says that they own everything in the game, and thus its not theft if they "permit" jarvio to take the drops. Whether a court chooses to accept the goa coc, or finds the other evidence more persuasive I can't tell. Just because you say "its a burger" dosn't mean that it is in the eyes of the law, is a good moto here

• Section 5 "belonging to another" requires a distinction to be made between ownership, possession and control:

ownership is where a person is not legally accountable to anyone else for the use of the propertyossession is where a person is only accountable to the owner for the use of the property; andcontrol is where a person is only accountable to two people for the use of the property. So if A buys a car for cash, A will be the owner. If A then lends the car to B Ltd (a company), B Ltd will have possession. C, an employee of B Ltd then uses the car and has control. If C uses the car in an unauthorised way, C will steal the car from A and B Ltd. This means that it is possible to steal one's own property.In R. -v- Turner (No 2) (1971) 1 WLR 901, the owner removed his car from the forecourt of a garage where it had been left for collection after repair. He intended to avoid paying the bill. There was an appropriation of the car because it had been physically removed but there were two issues to be decided: did the car "belong to another"? The garage had a lien i.e. a "proprietary right or interest" in the car as security for the unpaid bill and this gave the garage a better right than the owner to possess the car at the relevant time.what was the relevance of Turner's belief that he could not steal his own property? The defence of mistake of law) only applies if the defendant honestly believes that he has a right in law to act in the given way. Generalised and non-specific beliefs about what the law might permit are not a defence. Again, this section causes us problems, they didn't really "belong" to anybody specific as they hadn't been lottoed yet. however you might be able to argue that by attending the raid up to the end, there was a legitimate expectation by those attending, that they would have a chance to lotto for drops. You could then try arguing that as a result of the legitimate expectation those attending the raid aquired either an equitable or proprietary charge over the property.

• Section 6 "with the intent to permanently deprive the other of it" is sufficiently flexible to include situations where the property is later returned. For example, suppose that B, a keen football fan, has bought a ticket for the next home match. T takes the ticket, watches the match and then returns the ticket to B. In this instance, all that T returns is a piece of paper. Its value as a licence to enter the stadium on a particular day has been permanently lost. Hence, T steals the ticket. Similarly, if T takes a valuable antique but later repents and returns the goods, T has committed the actus reus with the mens rea. The fact that T's conscience forces a change of mind is relevant only for sentencing.

The fact that he hasn't given drops back pretty much proves this point.

However, this is english law, and things get fucked up when you realise the servers are in france and jarvio is in england, yay for multi-jursidictional cases!

it might be possible, but i cba to look into it more atm because I have an essay on resulting trusts to do (oh joy!)!

 

[Killswitch]

Serious point. Yes it is a game, but it's a game designed to simulate a world. Unless you want things like first-time permadeath and full PvP rules in all areas, in order to make the illusion of the world 'work' you have to imagine that your actions have consequences. Now, in the situation above, Jarvio's character would have been killed by his realm mates long before he ever got to shoot a Mid/Hib.

The only real justice available in the DAOC world is via the GMs and they have a vested interest in keeping players online and resolving disputes fairly. In that respect, they are more like Gods than a police force. They give the community some Commandments (read CoC) and then they leave the good and righteous to get on with it and punish the sinners with their banstick. The GMs, much like God, are fairly unreliable when it comes to smiting and should not be relied upon to visit plagues unto sinners.

The outrage here is caused not by what Jarvio did...people get ripped off every day in the real world, but by the feeling of utter helplessness of the victims. At least in the real world if you feel strongly enough you can take someone to court or (in Medieval times...not recommended today) run them through with your lance. In DAOCworld, all you can do is pray (via the handy Rightnow interface) and wait for some Sodom and Gomorrah-esque Wrath to be inflicted on the naughty person.

When people deliberately abuse this, it ruins the game for the majority. Jarvio could (and did) screw over that BG because he knew that it was highly likely he would get away with it and that none of the victims had any method for obtaining justice. I believe this is the reason for the "spirit of the game" stuff in the CoC and I think it should be more strongly enforced. If everyone acted like this, the game simply could not function.

You could argue that the lack of permadeath makes this illusion a waste of time...you can go out and commit murder time after time with no worry about anything except being killed yourself...then you go and do it again. Players need to try to think of it as a war. If a soldier kills 50 enemy soldiers he's a hero and if I steals from his own army he gets either a severe bollocking or a severe bearing (or both). If he keeps doing it, he gets locked up.

Players like this ruin the experience of other paying players and if they show no remorse about it, they are obviously incapable of existing in this type of game and should be banned for the good of the community.

If their guild shelters them then that's just proof that they don't care about the enjoyment of other players and don't grasp the above...that makes them just as bad in my opinion. Maybe they aren't capable of existing in this kind of game either.

 

[Jabber-Twodinners]

What time do school lunch breaks end in kent? I'd say you got about 30 mins.

LOL....

you aint foar out of school yourself Tilda. Remember that.

And for those commenting to Bugz....just read your own stupid comments and you just might realise how childish you sound. All well considering you consider yourselves "mature".

 

[evzy]

That's what you fail to comprehend and many others do.

Never, ever, in this whole arguement have I defended Jarvio. I invite you to find a post where I defend his actions. I'm not trying to worm my way out because i'm still posting, partly because i have fuck all to do and partly because I wish to show you guys how fed up I am of your stereotyping crap.

This following quote from page 5 or 6 I think it was on this thread - I would see as defending him tbh - you are praising what he did , which in my mind means you are happy to condone his actions, which you could argue means you are defending him now...

I comprehend the situation very well. And if you read my other post I gave Gratz to Jarvio for having the guts and determination to pull it off. I never said 'his god's gift,' 'don't punish him' or anything like that.

Why give him Gratz if he deserves to be punished? And you say that you never said don't punish him, well you never said punish him either tbh....

 

[Painz]

Hi guys

Right then, I know you're probably sick of all the ML9 posts etc, but as I've only just been informed of it, and seen what's been going on, I thought it might aswell give you my view... get a coffee, as like most of my other posts it's probably gonna be a long read.

Firstly, what he did was wrong - end of, no 2 ways about it... but I also can't help but laugh. Jarvio is a complete cock, as has been said... actually no, sorry - let me rephrase that. He's not a complete cock at all, he's a selfish immature fucker - SOMETIMES - but he's also a good laugh, and can actually be a sound chap. He makes me belly laugh sometimes, and other times I just wanna pan his face in with a mouldy baguette - but that's him. You all know EXACTLY what he's like.

The question I ask is... you do ALL know what he's like, so who's the idiot in this equation? Liam for nicking all the shit from ML9, or you lot for going on it knowing what he's like? If this was Counter Strike - he'd have a wallhack and an aimbot - that's just the kind of guy he is.

Anyhoo, the reason I'm posting is more at being pissed off with the comments that you bunch of band-wagon jumping pekkers have all decided to pipe up with. What Jarvio did he did off his own back, and there's nothing we as a guild can do about it now to rectify the situation, even if we wanted to. Comments like "Oh he's in CT what do you expect" and all that shite about Dark Wolves and all that "but not as good" bollox is poppycock. We'd never even heard of em when we did the things we did, and the only reason we did them was because we'd just had enough of conforming to the elitist attitude of all the little pricks on here - and u3er gamers so we decided to break the mould a little bit. Shame some people are so anal that they can't just let bygones be.

In addition to that, people like Flimgoblin posting calling us all tossers is fine - but don't forget who spent a few nights playing with our stealth group, sitting on our TS having "a damn good laugh" to quote what you said. I get fucked off with people who change their opinions of people like their socks, and only do what suits that moment. We're honest, if we don't like you we'll tell you, and if we do we'll do almost anything for you. CT as a guild are a bunch of sound people, who sometimes just don't put up with the shite that other people will. Take it, or run off crying to yer mammys. It's like some of you are too shit scared to just pipe up and say "No, CT are alright, it's just the odd one or two that are dicks" because you don't want to be frowned upon or sneered at by your friends in their big gangs, in case they dont play with you anymore because you knock about with "the smelly kids". I've never known such a playground, schoolboy attitude in a game.

Now I can't do anything about what's happened anyway, as I've hung up me cloak and stealthy sword for pretty much good I think now - and it's in part because of peoples attitude like this that I gave up. No one in CT condones what Liam did at all, I can vouch for that 100% - but in the same vein, no one cares about being "banned from raids" or anything else for that matter. CT have been before, and more than likely will be again - flavour of the month - we're the guild you all love to hate, and that suits us fine. If you want to omit CT from anything you do in the future, I don't think anyone's going to care, and if everyone leaves CT apart from the main couple - again, I dont think they'll care. I just think it's a stupid attitude to take.

That's about it really from me... along with Washington we're the heart of CT - we formed the guild back in the very beginning and we've seen it go from strength, to nothing, to strength again, to Jarvio lol. At the end of the day, it's just a game, you pay you play - your call, but try not to get to anal about it all, and if not, well...

FUCK YOU ALL.

TUDEFJÆS!!! QQ ftw ^^