Well...there goes the life.

[Huntingtons]

What's a fucking 6 pool!?

this is a fucking 6pool
YouTube - Starcraft 2 Zerg 6 Pool Rush Tutorial - Best Rush Build for Beginners [HD 720p]

 

[Levin]

Very early zergling rush in a nutshell

Levin, the cannon is ofcourse the thing shooting from behind the buildings. It reaches the forces trying to destroy your buildings that are the wall.

So forge/gateway = wall, cannon behind them, safely tucked in the base

Don't you see the difference? A Terran wall only need 350 minerals (and can be repaired while being attacked, as well as lowered to let units in/out). Then they can start producing offensive units. Toss "wall" needs 550 since their early offensive units can't shoot back from behind the wall.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Don't you see the difference? A Terran wall only need 350 minerals (and can be repaired while being attacked, as well as lowered to let units in/out). Then they can start producing offensive units. Toss "wall" needs 550 since their early offensive units can't shoot back from behind the wall.

Yes but can't you see the difference?

The 350 minerals have no offense with terran, that equals the 400 wall(stronger and as fastly built) of protoss.

The cannon provides the necessary defence against the initial 6 pool, because by the second wave, you're at 3 cannons for sure.

Also, the cost of one cannon is 150, which equals to 3 marines. 3 marines are at lower damage and lower range then one cannon.

The cannon is not part of the wall, it equals to the marines.

 

[Levin]

Except the barracks and marines are part of the normal build up for a Terran anyway. The early forge+cannon is a 100% defensive tactic for which you need to have scouted the cheese first, or it tends to be a waste of minerals (yes upgrades from the forge are good, but not until you have a critical mass of units).

Still don't see the diff? Cannons aren't part of your standard build/army! They are situational, while Marines are the Terran's meat and potatoes that are ALWAYS useful! Hence i don't count them as part of a wall-in cost, while i would do so with cannons.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Depends on your build really, to me they are part of my standard build. A strong front door is always a good thing, especially against zerg it's a must.

You don't have to scout for cheese either, because you're prepared for it and you've only spent extra 300 minerals on the door, otherwise all the buildings are very useful.

So in essence, the only extra cost is the cannons, which will serve a purpose anyway.

The cannons are defensive ofcourse, but without an all-in push, every base has defence units.

Like i told you, this is a valid defence against 6 pool(and even a baneling bust), and that's all that matters.

Told you i saw the difference, seen for a long time, just don't know why you're so against a tactic that works.

 

[Ch3tan]

It's when the zerg player skips building workers (i.e. worker count stays at 6) until he has enough minerals to build a spawning pool. Then he saves up so he has exactly 150 minerals by the time it's done, so he can spawn 3 larvae as zerglings, making 6 little hungry bastards to go charge your opponent before he has any defenses up.

It's pretty much an all in tactic. Either you win during the first 4 minutes, or you're so far behind in economy that you'll lose to any decent player. By many considered as "cheese".

Ahh, right, well. Toht's strategy above works then. Played 3 zerg players last night in a row, they all did this. I had built a forge, gateway, 2 cannons, 3rd on the way, and had a basic protoss unit (zealot?) on hold in the gap. They couldn't breach it.

 

[old.Tohtori]

The thing about protoss evolution in Scraft 2 is that they don't need an open door. If you want to expand, you can always open up the door(or indeed leave that one gap) or transport units with your prisms.

With that walloff, you can even(later) warp in dark templars to form a line at the door. I had 3 rows of DTs at the door in one game and a baffled zerg wondering why his forces were dyign before they reached the door

The key here is though, Levin you said it's not part of the standard build. If you don't use that in your standard build, ofcourse it's not. But then your standard build leaves you open, that build doesn't.

It's a tradeoff

 

[Levin]

Told you i saw the difference, seen for a long time, just don't know why you're so against a tactic that works.

I'm not against it at all, if i KNOW cheese is coming. The thing is, you seem to include it in your standard build, and that is not going to work when you face opponent who are macroing hard and teching up, while you build your cannons.

Don't get me wrong. I love cannons, and i wish they'd always be good as i'm more comfortable playing defensively too. But sometimes you have to grasp the initiative and punish the opponent early on if they try to expand or tech up, or they will gain a huge advantage for the remainder of the game. This is why you scout and adapt your build order, instead of always doing the same thing. And that's why it can be really risky to invest that heavily into cannons without having scouted. What do you do if you meet a toss who fast expands and techs up to mass VRs or even carriers? Your cannons won't help against that at all, and all you did was set yourself behind by building them. If you'd spent all those minerals on an offensive zealot push instead, he would've been hard pressed to expand, and you might have even overwhelmed him if you hit him while he's vulnerable.

Difference between toss and terran is that terrans can move their whole defense into offense so much easier. They can pick up their tanks and push, they can bring their marines, and they can even salvage their bunkers fgs! They're so much more versatile, and therefore are much better at turtling than protoss is, imho. Protoss versatiliy lies in mobility instead I reckon, with warpgates and all. That still doesn't make cannons any better though if you want to go offensive from the start.

 

[old.Tohtori]

After the initial walloff, i go straight into blink stalkers. That will stop any void ray rush and i will see it coming as an observer will be in place before any significant force comes my way.

Also i do expand so i'm not going to be behind in economy for long, and a proxy pylon or prism will take out plenty of enemy probes to even the score from the initial(possible) economy fall.

Like i said, it doesn't hinder my scouting to build this wall as the probe will leave the base.

I don't do early aggression, as i've said, because i don't have a need for it.

If i still have the replay of a pvp game, or my pvz game, i'll show how effective one base DT build can be.

Cannons are only for scouting until observer comes out and for that initial wall defense.

EDIT: Don't assume that i'm spending all my minerals on cannons, which it may sound like

 

[old.Tohtori]

(T)Crosshare vs (P)Valnes | SCReplays.com

Me is terran, other guy tries a gaterush, counter inc

(short replay really)

Didn't even say gg

 

[Levin]

Thanks for fun games Huntingtons!

Guys, we were thinking when/if people feel up for it, we could do a little FH tournament, or maybe even form an FH clan! ^^

 

[mooSe_]

Tourney sounds good there's no in game clan system yet though, why is bnet 2.0 so shit?

 

[Huntingtons]

was fun levin!

and yes, bnet 2.0 sucks so horribly. cant chat with people not on friend list unless you have recently fought them and find them through your match history. Custom system sucks.


Ranking system is good though

 

[old.Tohtori]

YouTube - StarCraft in 5 Minutes

Riiiiiiiiiiiiii *deep breath* iiiiiiight....bliz smokes too much funny tobaccy

Oh and gods Starcraft looked like poo

 

[Levin]

LOL! I've been fooling around in custom games with a new build i saw one of the bigshots do on youtube and it's actually working. ^^ Getting people to call me "nnooob!" as they lose to it is fun as heck too! Game just got fun again, hahaha!

 

[Huntingtons]

about the patchnotes, its sad carriers dont get a nerf tbh, waaaay too good

 

[old.Tohtori]

The thing i was wondering is that the hightier units of terran and protoss are omni-targeting, air and ground, but the hightier of zerg is ground only.

Not to mention the whole thing with protoss having a mothership, which has no counterpart(not counter) in terran and zerg.

Seems weird.

 

[Ch3tan]

The mothership isn't that good though, it's very easy to take out.

 

[Levin]

The thing i was wondering is that the hightier units of terran and protoss are omni-targeting, air and ground, but the hightier of zerg is ground only.

Not to mention the whole thing with protoss having a mothership, which has no counterpart(not counter) in terran and zerg.

Seems weird.

That's true, the Mothership is even a Hero unit (can only have 1 up at a time) which is unique indeed.

About multitargeting top tier fliers, yeah i noticed that as well. I think it balances though, in that Brood Lords absolutely own ground units, while Carriers and BCs are good, but not AS good vs ground nor air, to balance their versatility. And Zerg can instead go half Brood Lord, and half uh.. uh.. bleh i forgot the unit name! The air only flyer that can turn into Brood Lord. Mind you, Terran has multitargetting uber walker (Thor iz HEEAAR) as WELL! I guess zerg's ability to neural parasite stuff was counted in when they balanced stuff.

Another thing i noticed is zerg's lack of spellcasting units, other than the Infestors. Toss have HTs, Sentries, and Phoenixes all with spells. Terran have Ghosts and Ravens and probably something else i'm forgetting. Oh well.

 

[Huntingtons]

thors has a spell, theres yamato gun, stim too i guess they count?

 

[mooSe_]

Imo broodlords> carriers/cattlebruisers

Broodlords are insanely good if you have a ground army and some corrupters to protect them, whereas if I see someone go for some carriers or BCs then I lol unless specific situations where they can actually be useful. Since release I have had about 1 battlecruiser and 0 Carriers made vs me lol.

 

[mooSe_]

Another thing i noticed is zerg's lack of spellcasting units, other than the Infestors. Toss have HTs, Sentries, and Phoenixes all with spells. Terran have Ghosts and Ravens and probably something else i'm forgetting. Oh well.

Zerg only has one real 'combat caster' which is the infestor, but Queens, Overseers and corruptors all have useful spells on them too. Mass queens can even be useful in battles if you are quick at using transfusion.

 

[Levin]

Very true. Queens are actually really good anti air too, and with transfusing each other they can hold off a voidray.

 

[Huntingtons]

Imo broodlords> carriers/cattlebruisers

Broodlords are insanely good if you have a ground army and some corrupters to protect them, whereas if I see someone go for some carriers or BCs then I lol unless specific situations where they can actually be useful. Since release I have had about 1 battlecruiser and 0 Carriers made vs me lol.

yeah i agree broodlords are the sickets flyer in the game.
However a carrier has 8 interceptors doing 6 dmgx2 each. attackrate im not sure of but its maybe 1.5-2? thats quite sick dmg they can spit out. besides that, units dont attack carriers coz they arent the threat. Normally, if you plant your attack and meet other units, no dmg is wasted dmg. But vs a carrier you get tons of wasted dmg because of interceptors. If vikings kill a carrier but only 4 out of 6 fires to kill, 2 will then fire, on anything, maybe carriers, maybe interceptors and that can fuck you up

 

[old.Tohtori]

Hunt, shift+a, target all carriers and the vikings will go ship to ship

 

[Huntingtons]

that i know. i wouldnt use vikings alone vs carriers tho. Bcs and ghosts emp + yamato which gives alot more micro. but they rape ravens PDDs with their low dmg shots and fire all the time

 

[Levin]

Carriers are a lot weaker now than in SC1 to be honest. I hate how you have to tell each one of them to autobuild their interceptors, and last night i was in a game were we were trading bases.. or so i thought. I ran out of minerals and my carriers stopped rebuilding interceptors so i lost.

Mothership rushes are fun though. ^^ Won 3 games like that yesterday!

 

[Ch3tan]

Well slowly getting better, been having streaks of game wins, rather than my old win, loss loss loss loss, win. So the points are slowly climbing.

Loving protoss now.

 

[Ch3tan]

Ahhh FFFS, spent all morning winning games, got from 0 to 18 points. Played one guy, who was ranked above me just now. Lost, and lost all 18 points. How the fuck does that work?? Grrr.

 

[Huntingtons]

its a big mystery. but by points do you mean ranking points?