Well...there goes the life.

[old.Tohtori]

Still point stands with buildtimes not being decicive win factor, still ultralisks are a rare sight(no matter how own they are), and no matter how the tanks were, the nerf still is big for my personal taste.

I do want to point out that yes, your points are valid, but from a different POV. And also that i do trust changes are thought out and in favor of the game.

 

[ECA]

Ultras are not rare, any zerg game that goes past 15 mins will see an ultra cavern.

And buildtimes are incredibly decisive.

Make any unit build time 1s ... it's autowin... so yes it's a huge factor in balance early game.

 

[old.Tohtori]

I've maybe seen 1 or 2 ultra cavern games, in my own or from casts.

Maybe you've got a diff experience, but i just haven't ran into pretty much any.

You're taking the buildtime into extremes, which is pointless. There are so many more potent factors into winning a game, like macro/micro, reaction to builds, unit compositions that a 5 sec add to reavers or zealots are not the cause of fail.

 

[mooSe_]

You should listen to ECA; he knows what he's talking about

The build times make a big difference in the early game. When you are both at like 20 supply your macro and multitasking abilities don't really mean anything because a monkey could manage that base. This means that things like build times, unit speeds and rush distances take a bigger role.

At the moment mass reaper strategies are too strong vs zerg because it's possible to get the necessary mass of reapers early enough that zerg has no counter: reapers are faster moving and out-range any unit that the zerg player can get out at that point in the game (except spine crawlers, but it's not really viable to cover your base with them that early, they take ages to build, and reapers do insane damage vs them), which means that with good micro the reapers are actually invincible until the zergling speed upgrade finishes. If you want to see this kind of reaper abuse in action then watch some of the Intel Extreme Masters finals games between IdrA and MorroW.

I'm not really sure if the reaper nerf is enough/too much at the moment in order for zerg to get suitable defence, but you can see how that extra cumulative delay from each reaper could be enough for zerg to finish ling speed upgrade or get a roach warren up or put up spine crawlers to defend.

Ultras aren't rare at least in higher leagues, but I guess if you have to face 6pools every game then it never gets that far

 

[Levin]

As a protoss player i'm just going to stand even less chance against 6 pool now. I understand the need to nerf rush cheese tactics, but in that case why not balance 6 pool and marine rushes as well? And wtf, why nerf Reapers build times instead? Also, zerg could have used some convenience buffs, like auto larvae for queens.

Tank nerf is pretty huge though, as both mass lings and chargelots will now do a lot better vs terran mech builds. So small mercy there.

Also I agree with ECA, ultras were just wtfowning anything in the games i've seen. Note that one of the changes for them is actually a buff though. Using their normal attack vs buildings is better for them, plus it will deal splash damage as well to kill repairing SCVs. ^^

 

[old.Tohtori]

Well i never did say the reaper nerf is a bad thing, quite the contrary, i aid it's good for the game(had plenty of reaper exp even at this stage)

I did say that if you lose due to the reaper nerf(or due to any balancing buildtime), there's a bigger problem with your game.

And i also did say that i haven't had experience/seen games with ultras, so that might be a 50/50 thing there.

But we could argue about a patch for eons, as is custom, so let's not devolve this thread into that

 

[Levin]

But it's FUN to rant about patch notes!

Anyway, i've been sick this whole week and kinda too dizzy to play, and now i'm all awkward about starting again. I started practicing with the grid hotkey setup against the AI, and while i like it a lot better macro wise, i do HATE the fact that the move-attack key is relocated to T and the Warp Gate key to Y. And apparently there's no way you can customize them either, is there?

So i'm unsure which setup to go with now, as i constantly misclick my attack key and feel like if it was a real game i'd just lose because of my horrible microing. But then, my macroing has improved lots since i get to use hotkeys for everything. Hmm!

 

[old.Tohtori]

Well, i guess you should see where you're lacking (macro or micro) and then switch to the correspondent key setup?

So if micro is lacking, use more micro-suited key setup and viceversa

Oh yeah, i need to upload a replay for you levin, it's not great, but it's a rather nice PvP game(other going voidray rush and me countering with a dark templar/stalker+blink army after scouting).

 

[ECA]

You're taking the buildtime into extremes, which is pointless. There are so many more potent factors into winning a game, like macro/micro, reaction to builds, unit compositions that a 5 sec add to reavers or zealots are not the cause of fail.

No it was illustrative - not pointless.
Build time might seem like a simple simple thing but it's very very important.

If 1 is riduculous, but 33>38 is who cares, where is the line?
If build time is lowered - it reduces the need for production facilities - it means protoss has to invest in more production facilities from mid/late game to keep the same amount of current production. It's like a 15% production nerf - so toss w/ 10 gates now will need 11.5 gates after the patch.

Small changes in starcraft have very very big implications.

 

[old.Tohtori]

But at the same time, if the terran are nerfed too and the zerg are already struggling against toss/terran, it's for the better and any good player shouldn't be in trouble due to it, right?

I'm not implying it has any effect, i'm implying that in my preference and opinion, it doesn't have that much effect in the long running games.

And my preference is long running games(even fi cheese is sometimes tasty), so i'm kinda biased in any change regarding rushnerf

 

[Levin]

If build time is lowered - it reduces the need for production facilities - it means protoss has to invest in more production facilities from mid/late game to keep the same amount of current production. It's like a 15% production nerf - so toss w/ 10 gates now will need 11.5 gates after the patch.

Indeed. I imagine we'll either see a lot more Void Ray rushes now, or people who depend on their meat & potatoes (gateway units) will try to do 5/6 gates per base now instead of the old "normal" 4. I just don't see how robo builds will work without the proper gateway unit support.

 

[Levin]

But at the same time, if the terran are nerfed too and the zerg are already struggling against toss/terran, it's for the better and any good player shouldn't be in trouble due to it, right?

Hopefully you're right. I'm just going to be expecting every zerg i meet after the patch to 6 pool me and even knowing it i'll probably lose to it too.

 

[ECA]

But at the same time, if the terran are nerfed too and the zerg are already struggling against toss/terran, it's for the better and any good player shouldn't be in trouble due to it, right?

All it really does is ease up 2 gate pressure and early reaper shenanigans ( from a zerg POV ) - and make pushing tank positions a terrible terrible idea - but one that works if you get 3-4 bases vs 2 ( unlike atm where you cant do shit ).

It also makes PvT a bit more balanced early - reapers less of a pain before stalkers.

It also forces toss/terran into comitting to a unit in a game now - for eg if terran wants siege tanks - they need to get a few more now, and if toss is going mass gateway they have to invest more heavily in them.

It's pretty deep as far as the patch goes - but you are correct - nobody is going to start losing games because of these changes - only zerg will stop losing games to stupid shit early a little bit more

 

[old.Tohtori]

Do a terran walloff

Gateway/forge at door, with a one unit hole in the wall, set the units at the hole with hold command and the zergies have to fight 1v1

Back up with two cannons behind the forge/gateway and build some air incase of muta rush.

Should be a solid defense.

*snip*It's pretty deep as far as the patch goes - but you are correct - nobody is going to start losing games because of these changes - only zerg will stop losing games to stupid shit early a little bit more

Heh yeah, should balance the game a bit and yes, it's very nice for any race who's had trouble against reapers(i know i hate them).

Being a random player(love the surprise for enemy and keeps me focused), any change is going to be 30% nerf, 60% boost for me anyway

 

[Levin]

Do a terran walloff

Gateway/forge at door, with a one unit hole in the wall, set the units at the hole with hold command and the zergies have to fight 1v1

Back up with two cannons behind the forge/gateway and build some air incase of muta rush.

Should be a solid defense.



Heh yeah, should balance the game a bit and yes, it's very nice for any race who's had trouble against reapers(i know i hate them).

Being a random player(love the surprise for enemy and keeps me focused), any change is going to be 30% nerf, 60% boost for me anyway

I already do that if i suspect 6 pool, but even now it doesn't always get out in time before the first 6 zerglings come up your ramp, and let's not even talk about maps with wide ramps or more than once entrance.

Also, if you have two fat buildings with a zealot (or probe if you can't get the zealot out in time) guarding the gap between, the lings are free to bash down one of the buildings. This forces you to chose between running out to stop them, or to just let them crash the building. This is of course unless you built a forge first thing.

 

[old.Tohtori]

You should be able, if you start building around 6-7(not sure, have to check replays), to get atleast one cannon up. If it's nestled behind buildings and you chronoboost one zealot(rest for workers), should deal with the 6 ling attack.

Then again, if i'm zerg and the initial rush fails, it's baneling time

 

[Huntingtons]

for those ghostlovers out there, check this liquipedia tv strategy hour with qxc. 1 ghost 1 marine rush. Its awesome


YouTube - Liquipedia TV Strategy Hour #2, feat. qxc (1/5)
5 parts

 

[old.Tohtori]

I think that's it for tonight, 50/50 status. Well, 51 losses but 50 wins still

Gonna be getting over ze hump soon.

Oh yeah Levin;

8/10 build a pylon that reaches the chokepoint.
Keep building drones and chronoboosting the nexus.(queue 2 so the boost alst for second).
Keep drone mining (shift + mine after build)
As soon as you get 150, build gateway(placement placement )
As soon as you reach another 150, drop a forge to make the wall.
Keep building those drones, you don't need forces.
Drop 2-3 cannons at the wall.

After that, assimilators, get the cybernetics core, warp gate tech(chrono it), 3-4 gateways(so you have warp in forces if need be) and...well...do what you want and use the pylons to cover whole base(for warp ins) and pylons(or those flying pylon thingies) to warp forces outside the base.

That should keep nasties out, atleast works for me for now.

 

[Levin]

I think that's it for tonight, 50/50 status. Well, 51 losses but 50 wins still

Gonna be getting over ze hump soon.

Oh yeah Levin;

8/10 build a pylon that reaches the chokepoint.
Keep building drones and chronoboosting the nexus.(queue 2 so the boost alst for second).
Keep drone mining (shift + mine after build)
As soon as you get 150, build gateway(placement placement )
As soon as you reach another 150, drop a forge to make the wall.
Keep building those drones, you don't need forces.
Drop 2-3 cannons at the wall.

After that, assimilators, get the cybernetics core, warp gate tech(chrono it), 3-4 gateways(so you have warp in forces if need be) and...well...do what you want and use the pylons to cover whole base(for warp ins) and pylons(or those flying pylon thingies) to warp forces outside the base.

That should keep nasties out, atleast works for me for now.

Yeah i've done exactly that build too (and yes, i always chrono my probes, unless pumping out some quick stalker for reaper defense or 'lots for a rush of my own), but the thing is if you want to scout them too and/or if the ramp is too wide it just won't work in time. A proper 6 pool will be at your ramp before you can get a zealot out of an early gateway, and I believe a forge+cannon wouldn't be that much quicker. And i'm not going to cripple my economy without scouting that 6 pool first.. then i wouldn't just be contained but blind too!

But yes, that said i've thankfully not ran into a lot of 6 pools lately. I do believe after these changes though, they will be quite common again in PvZ; even in gold league where i'm at, and upwards.

EDIT: Btw, good to see you switched to protoss! *thumbs up*

 

[old.Tohtori]

I didn't switch to anything, i'm random

By simple math, a hard counter for a 6 pool would be the wall.

200 for pool.
atleast 150 for zerglings.
Traveltime.

Your wall will cost 400, so about the same and with 550 you're at one cannon, which already stops 6 zerglings.

The main thing here that you're mining and increasing your income all the time, while the enemy wastes minerals on lost forces

 

[Levin]

I didn't switch to anything, i'm random

By simple math, a hard counter for a 6 pool would be the wall.

200 for pool.
atleast 150 for zerglings.
Traveltime.

Your wall will cost 400, so about the same and with 550 you're at one cannon, which already stops 6 zerglings.

The main thing here that you're mining and increasing your income all the time, while the enemy wastes minerals on lost forces

My wall would cost 550 including 1 cannon yes, but you're still forgetting the time needed to scout his cheese first. You don't want cannons if he's going FE, for example. Also, in order to keep my economy advantage you can add some 250-300 minerals for probes to my list of expenses. Since he cuts his worker production, the very early timing is in his favour - that's why the 6 pool works after all.

I'm thinking after the patch what you have to do is use your probes as a defensive force, and hopefully not lose so many that economic advantage is completely stripped away.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Well, have to see, but not been over-run by zerg lately, it's afterall the same cost as a terran walloff.

And i don't scout before the wall is done, use that wall-off drone for scouting and proxy pylons.

Initial scouting, where you send in a drone before anything even could be up, is pointless in my opinion.

The changes don't really affect my build as i've rarely used zealots in anything but warp in defense

 

[Levin]

Well, have to see, but not been over-run by zerg lately, it's afterall the same cost as a terran walloff.

And i don't scout before the wall is done, use that wall-off drone for scouting and proxy pylons.

Initial scouting, where you send in a drone before anything even could be up, is pointless in my opinion.

The standard Terran wall-off would be 350 in total: 150 for barracks, 200 for two supply depots. So that's a lot cheaper than my 550. And then you pump out marines to stand behind and shoot while at the same time building up your offensive force. Nice and easy. Oh and as an added bonus you don't need to leave a gap. ^^

I send out my scout after my 9 pylon. With a zerg, you have to scout the 6 pool as early as possible. If they're going 6-7 pool, they will have just gotten the spawning pool up while still being at 6-7 drones. Likewise, if you don't scout a walling Terran early you might not even get into his base. The only matchup where i'd build a GW before scouting is PvP.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Well to each their own, but the wall of a terran is 350(of which one is a supply depot that you will have to replace sooner or later), wall for a toss is 400, with heftier structures and a lot faster income.

I would argue they are as fast to get up.

A cannon vs 3 marines is rather similar in defense power and the first cannon will keep the 6 away, just until you can get stalkers behind the wall.

If you're expecting air, you've got the warpgates for stalkers.
If you're expecting rush, you got the wall.

There's really no need for scouting before your wall is done

With terran you can drop an observer in anytime, same with zerg.

 

[Levin]

Why do you need to replace the supply depot? And if i could pick up my cannon and use it offensively just as the Terran can with their marines, i'd agree with you in general. Sadly, we can't. The cannon has to be counted into the immobile wall cost, so 550 vs 350. At least it's a detector too.

And yes there is need to scout early. If he's going fast expand while i turtle up - guess who just won the game? If i see a zerg pumping out nothing but drones, making no gas, i'll want to go offensive and hit him when he's vulnerable. If i don't send in an early scout vs terran, i'll have to wait until i get observers or researched hallucination for my sentries. By then it will be pointless, as what i wanted to see was if he was going early tech labs on his first barracks for reaper rush, if he goes double minerals, if he goes 1/1/1, or if there's no barracks at all in his base (expect proxy barracks) etc. Terran can very easily deny your probe scouting as soon as their first marine is out.

 

[old.Tohtori]

If there's a push, the supply depot will most likely go down. For certain if banelings come.

You can't count the cannon just as a "cost of the wall" because it is defense as well and like i said, if you send your probe out when the wall is done, you'll get all the info you need and a proxy pylon out there.

And two base zerg has nothing on a strong protoss army, with warp gates you can take out the expansion easy.

Anyway, i don't do much early rushes, even if my opponent is vulnerable, so that's where the game differs.

My builds are more oriented towards stopping any kind of early attack, then make a desicive hit with a force that fits the enemy. I rarely even have time to expand.

 

[Levin]

if you send your probe out when the wall is done, you'll get all the info you need and a proxy pylon out there.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

Also, the wall in itself is defensive, but rather useless without something to keep the enemy from pounding on it. Therefore, i count the cannon as a part of it unless you have something else to shoot back from behind it. (Stalkers take way too long in the case of a 6 pool or a 2 gate push.)

About the supply depot needing replaced - that argument goes for any building you put up there as a wall. I've had my forge/gateway destroyed several times that way. They're not so sturdy when you have 6 roaches or marauders melting them down.

Anyway, i'm not saying it's going to be impossible to defend against these rushing cheese tactics, just that it will be harder and that the patch notes will hopefully reflect some sort of balance when they're being set in stone on September 15th.

 

[Ch3tan]

What's a fucking 6 pool!?

 

[Levin]

What's a fucking 6 pool!?

It's when the zerg player skips building workers (i.e. worker count stays at 6) until he has enough minerals to build a spawning pool. Then he saves up so he has exactly 150 minerals by the time it's done, so he can spawn 3 larvae as zerglings, making 6 little hungry bastards to go charge your opponent before he has any defenses up.

It's pretty much an all in tactic. Either you win during the first 4 minutes, or you're so far behind in economy that you'll lose to any decent player. By many considered as "cheese".

 

[old.Tohtori]

What's a fucking 6 pool!?

Very early zergling rush in a nutshell

Levin, the cannon is ofcourse the thing shooting from behind the buildings. It reaches the forces trying to destroy your buildings that are the wall.

So forge/gateway = wall, cannon behind them, safely tucked in the base