update on the honour changes (more info on DK's and the effeckts)

Ctuchik

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found a interview from E3 with Tom Chilton at gamespy.

Source: http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/world-of-warcraft/617414p1.html

this is the more intresting part

Tom Chilton said:
Another issue that has plagued PvP has been the issue of punishment. In the version of the honor system as it stands now, there is no real penalty for killing a player more than ten levels below yours. Such a kill gains a "dishonorable kill" point in the system, but otherwise doesn't impact the player. The two major problems with this are that it does nothing to discourage the griefers and gankers in the game for whom tormenting a much lower level player is is the reward. The second issue is that the way the system has worked out, a great many quests NPC are spending a lot of time dead. According to Chilton, this is becoming a problem. "While we don't mind quest givers dying, they shouldn't be dead so much it becomes impossible to quest in a particular area." He said. The result is that in the next patch, dishonorable kills gained from killing low level NPCs will now reduce a player honorable kill contribution. Enough dishonorable kills and a player's rank will fall all the way to zero. Chilton wouldn't confirm whether this system might be extended to apply to griefers.

so as i understood it. if u kill ONE NPC quest giver, u loose abit CP's. if u kill TONS of them, u loose it all (including the rank u have). and the part that he wouldent tell if this was gonna affect the high lvl thats griefing low lvl players kinda upset me. mostly because i'd like to know exactly how that would work out. because if theres no exeption for this, u could have a entire raid of low lvl's running around making high lvl's be FORCED to get a DK or just have to roll over and die (and by that provide those low lvl players with free CP's) because they WOULD get a DK penalty (If they acually implement that).


IMO, the DK and the penalty that comes with it would disengage if the high lvl player got attacked FIRST by a much lower lvl player. that way theres no way for the low lvl players to "get even" because the low lvl got ganked at so much in the past...


/edit: Typos 'n shit...
 

Mordur

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read the pvp articles on main wowsite and you will get a slight grasp of the reason why dishonor for ganking greycons is nearly impossible to implement :)
 

Fana

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I hope they wont implement DK's for players since as many have pointed out it will be very hard not to get some in a hectic battle. If im fighting several people and someone suddenly adds i might very well miss that he is grey and only notice class/race etc. Plus, i bet that the system would screw up if it was supposed to keep track of agressive and defensive kills.

Just wait for battlegrounds imo, that should solve alot of the ganking issues since most people will want to pvp in there, thus removing them from ganking in the proper gameworld. Some gankers will ofc remain but it should lessen alot, making it possible to just move somewhere else if your beeing griefed.
 

Morchaoron

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How could they implement it? i dont attack grays (unless they attack me) but in big fights they still get caught in my AE attacks and they still try to zerg me like hell...

first thing i would do then i make a lvl 1 and start provoking some level 60s with a high rank or trying to get myself killed by their AE crap

even if they would have to attack you first, what about those shits who you wont attack because they know you get a dk then, and wait till you are in trouble with some mobs instead

no, if you get dks for grays then the griefing will REALLY start...
 

Sendraks

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I generally avoid killing grey cons, as they aren't worth the bother, but sometimes it is worth it. If I see a lvl 47 rogue coming to gank a priest on my side for example, then its worth my while dispatching the rogue. This shouldn't be considered a dishonourable kill, because its common sense.
 

Ashandar

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Ok i have a Q for ya all then....

As i play on PvP server, i expect a 'bit' of PvP action, thats why i am there.. fair enough?

Now if im questing etc, and i happen to see a grey or 2, i will stop and kill it/them.. but ONLY ONCE.. i will not hang around and chain kill it.. or if its fighting a mob i will wait and then do it.. i even leave them to loot chests first!! I dont hang around lowbie areas and slaughter everything in sight, i try to have a few standards as far as PvP goes (get the picture, im NOT acting DISHONOURABLY in my mind)!!

BUT i will kill a member of the opposition. Why? because they are the opposition, simple! If they are in a contested area.. they MUST expect it, i know i do!!!

Now am i a griefer? Does that mean i should get DK's?? I dont think so.

Killing greys is part of the games mechanics however you may look at it. Granted its open to abuse, but i dont subscribe to some of the 'tactics' others may use... so i think that DK's for players is wrong....

BUT i do see that SOMETHING should be done to stop dickheads griefing in the truest sense of the word...DK's should apply to being 'Dishonourable'.. which is a hard thing to define/gauge... i mean what about on a RP server where someone 'plays' an evil character.. no morals, out for himself, hates the world etc??? Are his/her actions deemed griefing if he/she kills everything around him/her, time and again?

A dilemma indeed.
 

Sendraks

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Interesting post Ashander, I have a few thoughts on this.

1) Are they are high enough lvl to present a threat? For example, 2 lvl 47s are grey con targets to a lvl 60, but if the players are any good, they can present a threat, especially if they decide to jump you while fighting a mob. Under those circumstances, it could be that the best defence is a good offensive. However..

2) Against grey cons that present little or not threat, its probably a good idea to adopt a policy of live and let live. Afterall, far better for you to be known as the nice "lvl whatever" that left them alone, than the reason for them to get their guild mates to come on over and beat the stuffing out of you. In which case, killing a grey con isn't so much "dishonourable" as just "stupid." Speaking from experience, I've been called into an area to deal with an enemy who conned grey to me, but who was happily killing NPCs and players who conned grey to them.

3) The game mechanics allow you to kill grey cons and in return you get nothing for it. Its not, however, an inherent part of the game, not something you must do.

4) A Grey Con player should only really expect to be killed by a higher if either a) they've engaged in action for which retribution should be expected (see point 2) or b) the high level character is a known grey killer. Grey con players can, seemingly, expect to be killed by your character because, well, you're you. By comparison, other players might only be regarded as "grey killers" if the grey provokes them in some way.
 

Ashandar

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Hi Sendraks,

Ok you make some valid points here, and they are ones that are inherently part of the game (infact id say any PvP game, i haven't seen one with an 'ideal' PvP ruleset yet).

Point 1) Agreed, but what to do in this situ? Well i guess that they 'may' pose a threat if they decided to, but what if they are simply watching? Should you be proactive and lay them to waste, or ignore them in the belief that they will not do anything? Choices, choices.. one maybe to incurr HK's the other could involve wasting your time running back to ur corpse? exp loss? item dur loss? and money loss?.... plus i bet you'd be pretty pissed you didnt wipe them.

Funnily i was watching a grey warlock (He was 10+ lvls lower than me.) only the other night, i did nothing to him, yet he laid into me, 4 times i went to 'watch him' to the same result... I had given him MORE than a chance to leave it, he would not pose a threat normally and yet he did begin to... maybe i should of wiped him there and then BEFORE he started? He wasn't really high enough but still he could kill me eventually if i did nothing... e.g. Had i of just fought a mob, maybe he could of finished me off if i was at 10% etc.. lucky he wasnt a rogue ;)..

Oh it was a happy ending for the Warlock.. one sheep later and a quick BBQ to his pet and he soon saw sense :wub: :wub: SEEEEE i can be a good mage!

2) See above warlock example... this i did, in a more benevolent moment of mine... and yet.. that was the result! Hmmmmm Am i dishonorable if i had killed him first BEFORE he rather foolishly started on me???

3) Agreed. However, it is there... we are responsible for our actions.. thus i explained that i 'try' to have some morality whilst PvPing.. others may not.. An argument i hear time and time again is 'well one day they will be lvl 60.. so kill them now so it takes them longer to get there'... a valid point, but is it one to base your PvP attitude off???

4) This is probably the most 'Grey' area (see what i did there ;)) One which has been discussed on multiple boards... however as the game stands.. you CAN accidently kill greys.. AOE anyone? SO unless they are immune UNLESS they have incurred some 'retribution' flag.. they gonna die. And yes.. as i am me.. i will kill them .. just the once, teaches them to keep an eye out, so maybe i am deemed a grey killer, but am i a griefer? Its all about shades of grey imo.
 

Ashandar

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P.s. sry forgot to mention

Sendraks said:
If I see a lvl 47 rogue coming to gank a priest on my side for example, then its worth my while dispatching the rogue. This shouldn't be considered a dishonourable kill, because its common sense.

Good example here .. but WHAT game rules could they introduce to determine what you thought as common sense.. wasnt infact ganking/griefing greys??? We all have our own thoughts of common sense, but how to accomodate them all? By this very action.. you'd prolly get a HK, although you were doing it for honourable actions. ;)

To me it looks more and more like grey killing is here to stay.. and i dont know how the Honour rules are truly going to work to everyones satifaction.. glad im not a Blizz dev :D
 

Lakashnik

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blizzard are just fans of irony. hence the term "honour" kill

tbh i doubt more than about 3%of my deaths have actually been Honourable.
if there is any chance of losing in a fair fight most people just run. alot.
i think the best example of this being when a ?? shaman was ganking a 30 druid in desolace. me the ever brave and stupid lvl 36 warrior that i was charged him. the druid got away and i would have surely died if not for a lvl 32 priest who noticed an started healing me as we fought. ended up getting him to about 10%hps then he ran his ass off.

i just dont see what pleasure people get from killing something which has almost no chance to fight back.
i have so many stories which make me pity how pathetic people are imo. i could go on for hours, but the worst bit is how so many people i meet whine about being ganked... but do it themselves.
 

Ormorof

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they could always just make certain zones "dishonourable" for grey killing :p

like redridge mountains for example :p
 

Ctuchik

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hehe. i just came to think about the HUGE number of alliance players that will end up at rank 0 the day they recalculate the CP's on my server after that patch :) there they raid TM about 30 times a day killing everything that moves ;) hell even the frog pet bites the dust lol. and theres mostly just civilian NPC's in that "town". god im gonna love that day to pieces :D seing all those rank 7+ alliance players get demoted to "Dishonorable <Name>. oh yes, u acually get that tag if u get enough DK's :D (NPC civilians only i might add)

i'm giggeling every time i think about it.
 

Iceflower

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>i just dont see what pleasure people get from killing something which has almost no chance to fight back.

Ye had the unfortunate experience of witnessing 2 lvl 55 and a 57 harrassing a lvl 39 down in Booty Bay this morning, killing him over and over, it felt pretty sad. Before that encounter I was pretty neutral to the "no negative effects on a pvp server" issue. But after that..., surely there must be a way to design the pvp game model so it wont provide schoolyard bully simpletons with a new outlet for their frustrations?

Hopefully the battlegrounds will pull the high level guys into them instead of playing in safe mode. :)
 

Solo

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Lakashnik said:
i just dont see what pleasure people get from killing something which has almost no chance to fight back.

Does that include two level 60 rogues vs Retallation ? :) :D

That gave muchos pleasure.
 

Lakashnik

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2 lvl 60 rogues against a 2h retal warrior using sweeping strikes is jsut amazingly funny to watch. cos unless they chain stun him to fk they are toast. but its most likely their own fault
 

Iceflower

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Yepp and if you can finish off the fight with a nice execution strike you hit a home run :) Nothing like mentally hurting that overconfident rogue with a hit that makes the rogue's crits look like babyhugs :)
 

Anastasia

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I don't see how reducing someone's CPs to zero will put off the griefers. Griefers are proud of their status in the game and will not give two hoots about cool titles or uber gear (not like they're going to need it killing grey cons is it?).
 

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