Thread to discuss Archery improvements!

[Aiteal]

Previous post should have said 'Trueshot' the RA
But I think you got the point

Actually, last attacker doesn't work if it pings your BT (doesn't set the attacker either).

And most of the time even after I get hit I get "Last attacker is out of range" or "target is too far away to face".

Now that I didn't know, handy that arrows always point the way to the offending attacker then isnt it.

Sure it's not a guaranteed kill every time you point your bow at a caster but it's hardly "omgz I unstealthed and instadied!" either. As for interrupts - use sureshot, sure it's crap damage but unless they're mocing they get interrupted, you don't.

I was describing the "ideal" scenario, no brittle, caster on horsey about to fall off for that extra "suprise!" factor, and my first shot doing damage with me positioned to his rear. Everything was to my advantage, and yet he simply has to quick cast CC and start the interupt cycle to win. Once I register the CC, purge it and start to draw my bow again a caster that has spent half as much time on his template as me will have done between 1000-1500 damage to me.
And you think I should spec 45 bow just to fire an extra arrow for half damage before dying? Tried it, and it aint worth it. If there was a bow MoC RA for 1 RP , I might get it, but sureshot is not worth the spec points.

Archery may be all very well at sieges, but in the open field its lacking.

 

[Nosufer]

As for interrupts - use sureshot, sure it's crap damage but unless they're mocing they get interrupted, you don't.

Thats actually wrong, that only applies to support and casters without aug dex, a fully buffed caster with 10% toa speed and aug dex can get off one spell between each sure shot. I have done it on my chanter and i have had it done many times to me on my ranger.

As for sureshot...

ML9 pets outdamage that, so thats chanter, BD, Cabbie, SM and sorc which can effectively beat sureshot

MoC+Nuke can outdamage that, every caster can get this.

Moc+Lifetap can outdamage that, so thats sorc, sm, cabbie out of the equation.

Eld, Runie, Cabbie have qc+NS, not much sureshot can do while NS'd.

BD can insta LT the damage back while his pet beats you down.

Warlocks kill you anyway

Theurg pets stun/nuke you down and they can quite easily moc and nuke also.

Sureshot hits like rapidfire at normal bow speeds ie 200-350 with crit every few seconds, a LT caster can cast 1 LT between each bow shot regaining any HP he lost while my Hp continually goes down as he does so. If you are un sure about this get an archer and sorc/sm (with a buffed pet of course ) or cabbie, buff them both, duel and get the archer to use sureshot, the cast speed of those 3 classes will get one spell off between each arrow and gain the Hp back.

 

[Nate]

Then you have guard and bodyguard, both of which completely nulify an archer, so that animist you thought you were gonna kill is no completely immune to you because a tank is stood guarding or bodyguarding him.

bodyguard effects archery? was under the impression it doesnt, maybe im wrong ;o

runie and wizzie(cabbie too) ns won't be that high so all you have to do is be closer to your target then you normally would be(not sure about cabbie due to the ml9 pet, but they go down pretty quick with bow) with these types of casters being closer to them will make your kill a lot easier

 

[Nosufer]

bodyguard effects archery? was under the impression it doesnt, maybe im wrong ;o

runie and wizzie(cabbie too) ns won't be that high so all you have to do is be closer to your target then you normally would be(not sure about cabbie due to the ml9 pet, but they go down pretty quick with bow) with these types of casters being closer to them will make your kill a lot easier

Runie and Cabbie NS won't scale like a wizzies, they are a set 2300. The ML9 pet you couldn't kill with a bow before it reached you, and if you did you would be giving the caster a chance to nuke you. Also closer the easier to kill?, a cabbie will just moc>debuff>LT, a wizzie/runie once mocced will nuke for 500+ a go with a cast speed of roughly 1 second. I have tried the quick bow approach, in the OF it was decent, now with all the defences and abilities it's just not as effective and doesn't really work. If they moc its all about killing them before they kill you, which if its a lifetap class is a non factor anyhows.

 

[Azathrim]

How is a sorc/cabbie/sm moc+lifetapping any different for an archer than any other toon in the game?

 

[Nate]

a wizzie/runie once mocced will nuke for 500+ a go with a cast speed of roughly 1 second.

i dont know very many wizzies/rm's with moc, it isn't something one should spec for

 

[Solari]

Something that amuses me is that some says Rangers, Scouts and Hunters are supposed to be inferior in melee because they are "Archers".

Noone has ever oficially said that Rangers, Scouts and Hunters are "Archers". The general assumption is so, and I would agree but certainly it is a weak arguement saying that a part of their abilities should be nerfed due to a term that people use to describe the class.

Noone would ever consider nerfing arsmens melee skills just because they can spec Crossbow and we could call them Crossbowmen.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't be allowed to rethink the Rangers, Scouts and Hunters melee capabilities but certainly not because of a self-invented term in my opinion.

 

[Azathrim]

If that argument held any water Solari, my 2 casters would like to have better melee. I mean, just because they were dubbed with the term "caster" doesn't say they shouldn't be able to excel melee as well!

Go go melee runemaster!

 

[Nosufer]

How is a sorc/cabbie/sm moc+lifetapping any different for an archer than any other toon in the game?

Its the same for alot of other classes who don't have a counter for it, the difference for an archer is that our primary damage is range, our primary targets are suppose to be casters. Yet at the present time casters are our biggest fear. Casters have many abilities that can neutralize us, moc+LT is just one of them.

Moc+Lt will hurt light tanks and hybrids, not main tanks due to fury+resists, nearsight won't affect any of them either, all of which affect the archer. These are just a few examples.

 

[Nosufer]

i dont know very many wizzies/rm's with moc, it isn't something one should spec for

With 400 dex and +10 cast speed they can still cast 1 nuke off between each sureshot, even if they don't spec for moc. Of course this shouldn't be needed as they can QC NS (wizzie can in 1.83 here anyhows) and nulify the archer.

 

[Nate]

Something that amuses me is that some says Rangers, Scouts and Hunters are supposed to be inferior in melee because they are "Archers".

Noone has ever oficially said that Rangers, Scouts and Hunters are "Archers". The general assumption is so, and I would agree but certainly it is a weak arguement saying that a part of their abilities should be nerfed due to a term that people use to describe the class.

Scout

Link

Quick, stealthy scouts are modeled after the historical Welsh longbowmen first seen in the Isles circa 633 CE through the heyday of English longbowmen in the Hundred Years War.

with massed archery

Hunter

Link

Hunters are the only archers of the frosty realm of Midgard.

Ranger

Link

Rangers are the archers of the realm of Hibernia.


is it still amusing?
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[Phule_Gubben]

Ahhh
You are adding/leeching then
well thats ok, nothing wrong with that

bit sad don't you think that your recommendation after 3 years of playing an archer is to add
doesn't that imply there's something wrong with the class?

Here we go again, leeching/adding. No I don't think it's sad, the biggest problem is that many players (mostly stealthers) think this game is designed for solo and solo only when it's not. And I don't recommend anyone to play like this or that. I play the way I do and I hope for gods sake that others play the way they want. And for the third time, I don't see the big issues that so many others do. I adapt, I choose when to attack or not, I choose target and so on. I have many friends that play a hunter and they don't complain that much, not to the point that Censi does anyway, and a lot of others do too. Archers are fine as they are IMHO!

u as a SOLO BOW SPEC hunter should have noticed following points

- Line of sight bug which makes use of bow impossible.
- Difference between Bow draw time and the incredible recast time of casters.
- geting interupted and sureshot isnt equivalent 2 the dmg u get.
- geting interupted which lets u fumble the next 3-4 seconds.
- miss rate.
-Critshot not usebale cause
.Target is moving
.Target is in Combat
.Target have brittle Guards
and last but not least, ur bullshit about use of fullest potential
- U hardly can use fullest potential most of the time cause u and ur target arent alone mostly, MMORG so some other players play this game 2.

If you can't position yourself so that you can kill your target before it can get to you then I'm sorry for you. If you think before releasing the first arrow you should come out on top, you got range advantage, you got the option to choose when to reveal yourself. etc. etc. You need to use any thing that's giving you the upperhand before you engage in the fight. If you do that, then you will win.

I know I'm not the only one that doesn't complain about how hunters perform, can't really speak for scouts or rangers but it can't differ that much when you specc high in bow. And when I come to think of it, hunters got shorter range then rangers and scouts and I still see no problems with hunters. And I doesn't even consider myself to be a good hunter, Guten is way better then me, Vind, Fatbelly, Ghostbow and many more are far more skilled then I am. Should ask anyone of them and see what they think of all the suggestions that people have here.

 

[Aiteal]

Here we go again, leeching/adding. No I don't think it's sad, the biggest problem is that many players (mostly stealthers) think this game is designed for solo and solo only when it's not. And I don't recommend anyone to play like this or that. I play the way I do and I hope for gods sake that others play the way they want. And for the third time, I don't see the big issues that so many others do. I adapt, I choose when to attack or not, I choose target and so on. I have many friends that play a hunter and they don't complain that much, not to the point that Censi does anyway, and a lot of others do too. Archers are fine as they are IMHO!

Yeah cause stealthers are so groupable
I'm not critising you for the way you choose to play, but your description of how you kill casters with your bow involves them already being in a fight with someone else.
If you can't see the problem there I can't help you see it sorry.

Archers are fine?
Second lowest DPS in game (next to sword and board)
No groupability
More counters to their main spec line than ANY other attack in game.
All the bad points when it comes to magic, i.e. interupts without any of the goodies, the DPS or an ability to "MOC" when in melee to continue attacking, and a hard capped 250 QUI for speed like melee attacks.
All the bad points of melee attacks, i.e. shields, bladeturns, brittles, guard without any of the plus sides, like ability to still fire your bow when being attacked, ability to attack whilst moving, ability to keep attcking when out of endurance, ability to switch to elemental damage with your main weapon.

 

[Gethin]

Imho all they have to do is remove quickcast from casters, increase normal arrow bow damage marginally (10%) and no more archer\caster dynamic issues.

Assassin\Archer dynamic needs to be looked at seperately.

 

[Aran Thule]

If you can't position yourself so that you can kill your target before it can get to you then I'm sorry for you.

You make it sound so easy...
If i fire at close range they can face and cast or close and engage.
If i fire at long range they can take a few steps and i cant hit them.

I will give you a run down of a few issues i had last night: (note,quickshot 3 secs, normal 5-6 and crit 7or so)
Spot target, draw(3 secs) cant get good shot, move and redraw (3 secs), try to fire but out of range.
Merc spotted med range, rapid fire repeatedly, FZ them away, continue rapid fire, they reach me on 15% health and proced to take me down to 35% before i can kill them melee (this with 50 mod pierce and +26 str cap template)
Shoot target from one bridge arch to another, homing pet of doom chases me with sorc behind.
Try to use FZ but Doesnt work due to GT bug.
Several more cant get good shot attempts.
Tried 3 times to fight a paladin,even using SoM, IP, FZ, WH, Desp Bow, DD charge and striking from suprise i found myself in no win situation, and they were half my RR.
New assassin poisons reducing damage (melee and bow) by 25%

This is a normal day roaming bow spec, it is very hard solo and as mythic have said they are not going to make us groupable im sure you can understand why people have resorted to staying near towers or going melee.

 

[Cruhar]

You cant just yank out your bow and expect to win the fight... it doesnt work like that... there are way to many tools to interupt at distance...
Even for the rangers...

The problem is that many archers compare themself to either Casters or Tanks, but they are none... They are not meant to be... You are something inbetween... Sadly the game has evolved into a state where its no good to be 'Jack of all trades' and since the game is growing old aswell, your enemies has gotten smarter.

I dont see that archers has a problem, but I see they have limited use, limited time where they are the uberdogs...

The problem isnt with the archers, the problem is with the age of the game and the overpowered abilities toa has given casters and the solo-abilities given to tanks (instant ranged stuff for pulling) and the shield ability engage...

If they made resisted spells not interupt, if they made instant shouts not interupt, and if they made engage not useable vs Enemy players archers would have it alot easier...

Sure some ML abilities can interupt, such as Throw Weapon, but should the target get into range after that, FZ him...

But to be honest the problem is all that range stuff, that might not actually do something, except for interupt...

Your enemy has gotten smarter, maybe its about time for you to evolve your counter abilities

 

[charmangle]

The damage output is just too high on such range...

please shut up :|

i get hit by rangers bows for 300 on bloody rapid fire ffs :|

and they are rr3.

Well the bow spec might have some flawed/hard to use abilites but the main damage is just way out of line high. Hitting people for 300 damage every 1.5 seconds on a range of 2.3-2.5k (10% range ofc) is just rediculous. (not to mention the range when standing in a tower. Not sure but it feels like they get a 5% range boost or something when on top of a lvl 10 tower. Anyone know the exact number?). If you lower the range to 1500-1600:ish It would be okay with the changes!

/Charmangle

 

[Elrandhir]

Well I hope the once haveing replied have Played a ranger for awhile in NF atleast, because otherwise the replies has no real value tbh and those that havent tested it couldent begin to understand really, I play more or less every char there is and I try to see it from every perspective.

Cba to make any more posts about why I think they need improvement, because that has already been said several times tbh.

 

[Jeriraa]

Well the bow spec might have some flawed/hard to use abilites but the main damage is just way out of line high. Hitting people for 300 damage every 1.5 seconds on a range of 2.3-2.5k (10% range ofc) is just rediculous.

Lets do a bit of math taking your example of a scout with 110% range (2.42k) doing 300 dmg per rapidfire vs a caster with 10% range bonus (1.65k) range doing 500 dmg per shot. (Yes, 500 is high but so is 300 for a rapidfire shot.)

Scout dps: 200 hp/sec
Caster dps: 500hp/sec
(going by a cast time of 1s - thou a caster being able to deal that kind of damage probably nukes at 0.8-0.9 sec's per cast ending up with ~600 hp/sec)

Now imagine everybody in DAoC would have a sprint speed of 250 units per second. (I don't know what the correct speed is but it feels about right to me.)

We have a difference of 2420 - 1650 = 770 range. In my example that equals 3.08 seconds sprinting towards the scouts.

During that time the scout is able to deal 616 hps damage if the caster has no brittle or bladeturn.
Without brittle but bladeturn the 1st shot will miss and we get 316 damage.
With both 2 shots will miss and we end up with a 0.08 second advantage over the caster. Theoretical damage dealt: 16 hp's.

How much damage does a caster deal in 3 seconds? If we go by this example it will be 1500. Thats only about 100 times more than the scout if the caster has a brittle and bt up.

And then people wonder why archers add?

 

[Gethin]

Lets do a bit of math taking your example of a scout with 110% range (2.42k) doing 300 dmg per rapidfire vs a caster with 10% range bonus (1.65k) range doing 500 dmg per shot. (Yes, 500 is high but so is 300 for a rapidfire shot.)

Scout dps: 200 hp/sec
Caster dps: 500hp/sec
(going by a cast time of 1s - thou a caster being able to deal that kind of damage probably nukes at 0.8-0.9 sec's per cast ending up with ~600 hp/sec)

Now imagine everybody in DAoC would have a sprint speed of 250 units per second. (I don't know what the correct speed is but it feels about right to me.)

We have a difference of 2420 - 1650 = 770 range. In my example that equals 3.08 seconds sprinting towards the scouts.

During that time the scout is able to deal 616 hps damage if the caster has no brittle or bladeturn.
Without brittle but bladeturn the 1st shot will miss and we get 316 damage.
With both 2 shots will miss and we end up with a 0.08 second advantage over the caster. Theoretical damage dealt: 16 hp's.

How much damage does a caster deal in 3 seconds? If we go by this example it will be 1500. Thats only about 100 times more than the scout if the caster has a brittle and bt up.

And then people wonder why archers add?

Nice post

 

[Vodkafairy]

you forgot something else: casters do not get interrupted if the arrow hits their brittle or bladeturn. no need for more explanation why its suicide to attack a mage with an archer most of the time.

> turning it around, an archer will get interrupted by even a resisted spell.

 

[Nosufer]

Lets do a bit of math taking your example of a scout with 110% range (2.42k) doing 300 dmg per rapidfire vs a caster with 10% range bonus (1.65k) range doing 500 dmg per shot. (Yes, 500 is high but so is 300 for a rapidfire shot.)

Scout dps: 200 hp/sec
Caster dps: 500hp/sec
(going by a cast time of 1s - thou a caster being able to deal that kind of damage probably nukes at 0.8-0.9 sec's per cast ending up with ~600 hp/sec)

Now imagine everybody in DAoC would have a sprint speed of 250 units per second. (I don't know what the correct speed is but it feels about right to me.)

We have a difference of 2420 - 1650 = 770 range. In my example that equals 3.08 seconds sprinting towards the scouts.

During that time the scout is able to deal 616 hps damage if the caster has no brittle or bladeturn.
Without brittle but bladeturn the 1st shot will miss and we get 316 damage.
With both 2 shots will miss and we end up with a 0.08 second advantage over the caster. Theoretical damage dealt: 16 hp's.

How much damage does a caster deal in 3 seconds? If we go by this example it will be 1500. Thats only about 100 times more than the scout if the caster has a brittle and bt up.

And then people wonder why archers add?

Very nice post, hopefully those who have trouble understanding why archers say they need help will read this and understand it.

 

[Jeriraa]

Yes, I dont say archer damage is too low thou even with casters having twice the dps. Like some people mentioned, stealth and range + more hitpoints make up for that. (No, armor doesnt.)

Bow damage is just too inconsistent currently.

You have a chance to fumble. (Yes, even with a 50+15 bow I fumble).
You have a chance to miss.
You have a chance to get "You can't get a shot now."
Your arrows can be blocked and evaded.
You have to hit throu bladeturn and brittles.

And ontop of that a fly farting at your nose will interrupt you. That means your current draw gets canceled and you can not redraw for the duration of 1 shot. (Normal shot ~4-5 seconds.)

 

[Nosufer]

Yes, I dont say archer damage is too low thou even with casters having twice the dps. Like some people mentioned, stealth and range + more hitpoints make up for that. (No, armor doesnt.)

Bow damage is just too inconsistent currently.

I agree, although a slight increase for speccing high bow wouldn't go a miss, we just need the tools to deal with with situations because having our first 2 shots negated the majority of the time sends our DPS through the floor.

 

[Shike]

Let me shamelessly quote myself:

Those who aint asshats have spec'd out of bow and are now playing a different class. The other ones are playing their class the only way it is playable. That is why we are asking for archery improvments.

well I do agree and I do understand some of your points but, nevertheless, further increased "power" of the archery would lead to the plague we suffer from atm getting even worse.

You dont seriosly think all the people like Tesla will change playstyle with some archerlove? Or the scouts camping everywhere just waiting for something to add on? THAT is the problem. Those asshats aint ever gonna change, and those asshats are a majority of the archers out there. Giving them love would be a proper disaster for DAoC as a whole I think.

I would rather see archers stripped of stealth, with added groupability. Thats what archers really would need. Giving archerylove in current state, no thanks, the game dont need an even better addingmachine out there.

 

[Aran Thule]

Hitting people for 300 damage every 1.5 seconds on a range of 2.3-2.5k (10% range ofc) is just rediculous.

I have capped bow speed/quick and using a 5.7 (champ) bow do about 300 damage using quickshot, however this is about every 2.5-3 seconds not the 1.5 seconds you mentioned.
To get the speed you mentioned its more likely that they are using fools bow (do you get the proc every 3-4 shots) which would do a lot less damage, only way they would be getting 300 is with crits and to get regularly would need high falcons eye RA.
Just for referance Falcons eye is often not taken to high levels due to not being able to get crit's using Crit Shot, its a bit like mastery of pain but disabling it for styles.
Using sureshot i would do 300 damage every 6 seconds by which time i am already typing release.

If i remember (and if anyone cares) i can try to do a chat log to show the speed/damage from champ and fools.

 

[Eeben]

i did 800 with crit shot on guerra today with 18 bow

 

[Azathrim]

(going by a cast time of 1s - thou a caster being able to deal that kind of damage probably nukes at 0.8-0.9 sec's per cast ending up with ~600 hp/sec)

Just to correct a bit of factual error here.

The theoretical cast speed cap is 1 second for a 2.5 delve spell (2.5*0.4) and 1.12 (2.8*0.4) for a 2.8 delve spec nuke.

In reality very few reaches that cap, although the average fully templated ToA setup comes close.

 

[Jeriraa]

Just to correct a bit of factual error here.

The theoretical cast speed cap is 1 second for a 2.5 delve spell (2.5*0.4) and 1.12 (2.8*0.4) for a 2.8 delve spec nuke.

In reality very few reaches that cap, although the average fully templated ToA setup comes close.

Did you read the tests cleavy posted on our boards? They state otherwise.

 

[Nate]

Well I hope the once haveing replied have Played a ranger for awhile in NF atleast, because otherwise the replies has no real value tbh and those that havent tested it couldent begin to understand really

so...hunters/scouts have no say in the bow improvements? is this just for rangers to get buffed up in bow? i can't see why the best of the 3 realms archer class (disregarding spec)should be the only one to have say in what improvements their should be.