Thread to discuss Archery improvements!

[XenX]

guys can i state again.. this thread is all about archery.. once again your all arguing about wether a melee ranger can pwn a scout and that the scout has shield etc etc.. WHO THE HELL CARES!!!!! every archer class suffers from the same problems with BOW..if you wanna be a melee ranger then fine but it has nothing and i mean NOTHING to do with what bow rangers have.

why are you all arguing amongst yourselves over who is op'd in melee amongst the three archery classes, any improvement they make to archery will be just as good for all three of us..

here are scouts.. arguing that rangers are op'd against them.. so rangers shouldnt get any help with archery .. meaning you wont get any help with archery.. so we are right back where we started.

yes rangers can spec pure melee if they want.. and yes with the right equipment and ra's they are very good.. but what the hell difference does it make when we are talking about archery! they arent even specced in archery! mythic arent going to make and changes to duel wield.. they arent going to make any changes to shield so why even bother arguing about it!!!

its better we all stick together and consider the problems with archery that will help all three of our classes! no changes to archery will make rangers any better at melee, and no changes to archery will make us any worse at melee!

and also i know you all dont like doing it.. but can we please leave realm abilities like PD and stuff out of it all three of our classes can get it if they take it away it will affect all of us.. and im sorry but if a scout doesnt get PD.. and a ranger does.. and the ranger wins because of it.. good on them. you cant argue that 1 realm ability is over powered because 1 persons uses it and 1 person doesnt.

melee rangers will be better than scouts (in melee) no matter what you do.. if they remove PD nobody will be able to use it.. and im sure a lot of scouts do use it to at least help with their limited melee skills so why spend all day arguing only to take it off yourselves!

and anyway mythic have said that at the moment they are not making any changes to ra's.

please stop taking into account melee specced rangers it has nothing to do with what problems archery has!

 

[Scutter]

I've only been a scout a short time so here's my low RR perspective on things.

Scouts are good at
1 - defensive situations due to our range (I think it's true that scouts have greater range than the hib & mid archers) and a couple of scouts using rapid fire can drive attackers back.
2 - erm scouting and causing diversions (lvl 10 fools on keep doors)

Scouts are bad at
melee

I do not think it's bad that scouts are not great at melee as we can be a royal pain in the arse when we are defending a keep and it's a fair trade. We have many tricks to use and volley is not as bad as people say and does come in handy.

But I do think that it would be a good idea if speccing in bow line would open up a few more options, maybe a few traps like a pitch trap, lay a pitch trap and would need a fire arrow to activate trap which would DoT enemies (small radius AoE of trap). Diversion shots where you cause the enemy player to loose their target.

I really enjoy playing my scout atm and I think it would be hard to adjust them without making them OP in certain situations, I think simple additional bow skills like I mention above would make them a really great class without being OP.

 

[Xxcalibur]

scouts are better archers, but one ranger fulll bow with mos5 must be funny imo. and prolly still is competent to fight in melee.

 

[Meradesh]

As a roaming pure archer, a hunter must be really fun, kite + pet can be really anoying vs assasins.

 

[censi]

i think the post digressed to much tbh.

like what I was trying to get at really was archers should be a class whos strength lies in bow.

like melee should be a backup option when your caught out, but it should be like a last resort.

you should have to invest in archery because its like the backbone of the class, there should be cool things about archery in the same way TOA like boost mages and gave all classes like new abilities and stuff, everything has gone forward in daoc... archery however has just got worse and worse till its just negated now by a large proportion of players who want to play the class competativly.

if they just thought about it they could come up with a new system that was radically different to the one now. One that gave people on the receiving end of a sniper a chance to do summin based on his reactions to getting attacked, which was important to the outcome.... something a bit more cat and mouse to what we have now which is basically close to pointless even opening on an opponent with arrows in open field (because its situationally detrimental to the outcome)

note like in siege situations, archers should be like really influential but the current situation is like archers are just the pests on the ramparts that will chip away at you. There should be like siege equipement that you can build to cover yourself from archery fire. special like tower type shields that can be used to provide effective realistic cover. other targets should be vulnerable though.

id gladly go backed to borked melee to be a proper archer again.

 

[Vodkafairy]

if an archer (any type) specs for melee they are good at it, and imo, it should stay that way. the discussion is about bow being subpar when specced to 50, it makes the class nowhere as effective as melee currently.

i don't think the damage is a problem though, but more like complete lack of utility.

 

[Aiteal]

What would be cool would be casters having the same mechanism for spells that archers must use for the bow

watching caster vids where you see
"you are already casting a spell you will cast a greater pwn as a followup"
"you are already casting a spell you will cast a greater pwn as a followup"
"you are already casting a spell you will cast a greater pwn as a followup"
"you are already casting a spell you will cast a greater pwn as a followup"
"you are already casting a spell you will cast a greater pwn as a followup"
"you are already casting a spell you will cast a greater pwn as a followup"
"you are already casting a spell you will cast a greater pwn as a followup"
"you are already casting a spell you will cast a greater pwn as a followup"
"you cast a greater pwn spell"
"you hit thatguythere for 500(-150) damage"

scroll up the screen in a sec really fucks me off (pardon my french)

give casters the same mechanism that archers use for drawing, firing and reloading their arrows reworked for spells and watch how far they get spamming a button with no concern for timing

 

[hrala]

as a whole the ranger needs a complete work over..

epic kit is a laugh only good for thid....

block and miss rate from a crit shot sucks... how can a tank or other shield spec enemy see a inc crit shot from stealthed and block it..

arrows the self made ones should have at least a bonus on em like dmg or range over the store bought 85% qaul items..

i put loads of points to get 50 bow for that kind of miss rate and block rate. my shield tank with a short bow prob has better hit rate than me...
:kissit:

 

[Nate]

What would be cool would be casters having the same mechanism for spells that archers must use for the bow

watching caster vids where you see
"you are already casting a spell you will cast a greater pwn as a followup"
"you are already casting a spell you will cast a greater pwn as a followup"
"you are already casting a spell you will cast a greater pwn as a followup"
"you are already casting a spell you will cast a greater pwn as a followup"
"you are already casting a spell you will cast a greater pwn as a followup"
"you are already casting a spell you will cast a greater pwn as a followup"
"you are already casting a spell you will cast a greater pwn as a followup"
"you are already casting a spell you will cast a greater pwn as a followup"
"you cast a greater pwn spell"
"you hit thatguythere for 500(-150) damage"

scroll up the screen in a sec really fucks me off (pardon my french)

give casters the same mechanism that archers use for drawing, firing and reloading their arrows reworked for spells and watch how far they get spamming a button with no concern for timing

i dont think that would be a good idea at all, you could ready a cast before someone gets in range, then do insta dmg, and cast again..the target would be dead quicker then he would have been with the old system.

besides..you can do the same with archery as you have pointed out with spells..just hold down the button.

 

[Aiteal]

i dont think that would be a good idea at all, you could ready a cast before someone gets in range, then do insta dmg, and cast again..the target would be dead quicker then he would have been with the old system.

besides..you can do the same with archery as you have pointed out with spells..just hold down the button.

Then give the same message that archery gives
target too far away
and kick them back to the start of the cycle again

if you hold down the button on an archer you'll just sort of stand there and well...
sorta look like someone who is pointing their bow
if you spam the key erratically as an archer you will lower your rate of fire not increase it

 

[Shike]

i think the post digressed to much tbh.

like what I was trying to get at really was archers should be a class whos strength lies in bow.

like melee should be a backup option when your caught out, but it should be like a last resort.

you should have to invest in archery because its like the backbone of the class, there should be cool things about archery in the same way TOA like boost mages and gave all classes like new abilities and stuff, everything has gone forward in daoc... archery however has just got worse and worse till its just negated now by a large proportion of players who want to play the class competativly.

if they just thought about it they could come up with a new system that was radically different to the one now. One that gave people on the receiving end of a sniper a chance to do summin based on his reactions to getting attacked, which was important to the outcome.... something a bit more cat and mouse to what we have now which is basically close to pointless even opening on an opponent with arrows in open field (because its situationally detrimental to the outcome)

note like in siege situations, archers should be like really influential but the current situation is like archers are just the pests on the ramparts that will chip away at you. There should be like siege equipement that you can build to cover yourself from archery fire. special like tower type shields that can be used to provide effective realistic cover. other targets should be vulnerable though.

id gladly go backed to borked melee to be a proper archer again.

I can agree to alot Censi, I do understand what you are saying but, the mechanics doesnt really allow it.

Archers shouldnt work as casters with stealth, killing easy on range, we will have hell in the game then.

Increasing damage isnt an option, because bowspecced archers already hit casters and other lighter classes for 500 a pop, even with specAFcharge etc.

Increasing penetration isnt an option either, because then a caster can never ever live if an archer decide that the said caster should die. Archer standing on 1900 range shooting arrows=many casters cant even reach him. Assassins cannot reach either, neither can tanks. All the archer have to do is just, run off and restealth, use terrain wisely to avoid los to get away from eventual instas and its not THAT hard to escape.

What I think you forget is that it is the combination of potential high damage and stealth that is fucked up. Giving archers bowlove would mean many classes cant do shit vs a duo of rangers shooting like mad and tbh, i dont want to see that, its enough with the scoutplauge that already exists.

Archers should not be casters with stealth, not even close to it. I would rather see scouts melee upped a tad with choice to specc parry to further increase their defenses and bowdamage lowered so all archers can stand a decent chanse in a meleefight.

Mos5scouts/rangers/hunters with silly utility plus damage on bow running around in packs killing every solo/duo/trio and also adding on everything, is that what you archers really want? What good exactly do you expect this to bring into the game? More fun for.. who? Except the archers killing without much chanse for anyone to retaliate?

Seems to me archers want back their oldfashion 2critkills, which ppl hated, nobody liked it at all because there was v little you could do about it. Suggest archers play casters or support for abit and go out with roaming groups and see how much you actually like bowspecced archers that fucks things up as soon as they are in range.

Giving archers bowlove is just a big nono, for the sake of the game overall, at least aslong as it is combinated with stealth. If you cant see that then you really need a balancecheck. Archers are already a pain in the arse as is, why make it even worse? :I

 

[Aran Thule]

Shike: you want archery damage lowered? we are already the lowest in the food chain DPS wise.
Archery isnt mage power with stealth, its a mix of melee and magic rules taking the worse from both sides.
I played an archer from day 1, and you will find in other games (diablo, oblivion ect) my first choise will be an archer style.
I want to be able to play an archer, not a blademaster, warden, hero ect, i have a bow which i have spent most of my points training, i want to be able to use it.
As it is it has so many bugs and other classes have so many defences it is very hard to actually do anything.
I try when i get the chance to go out and have fun with him but it gets harder and harder, a lot of people are in the same boat as me and want to be able to have fun as an archer but are being consistantly pushed and forced to play in a manner that doesnt appeal to them.
Thats what this thread is trying to put forward, we dont want to be overpowered we just want to be able to play and have fun as archers.

 

[Oshi - Dard]

stuff

Have you ever played an archer mate ?

Your arguments seem somwhat flawed in my opinion. Most of the reasons you've posted for archery not to be improved can be applied to half the classes in this game & all your reason's seem to stem from archer types adding on fg fights from range & im sorry but i think your way off the mark here. Remove archers from the game & all that will happen is that the people who play them will play somthing else to "add" on fights, its the mind set of the player that causes issues not the abilities of the class (i say this as a druid who hates being shot at in fights but who also hates being PA'd & nuked & petted yada yada yada by "adds" as well).

As for archers themselves ...

Bow damage doesnt need improving, spec high & you hit hard, anyone who says they can spec low bow is talking out of there arse if they say they can consistantly pump out the same DPS as somone with a high bow spec.

The main problems are the same old problems, "you cant get a good shot yet" .. "you cant see your target from here" .. "you cant get a crit shot off you switch to a standard shot .. somone farted in the next zone & interupts you .. & randomtargetwithanytypeofshieldstandingwithhisbacktoyou blocks your shot & the next 10 arrows too.

Sort these issues & address the issue of putting some utility in the Bow line & archers are pretty much fixed in my opinion, perhaps change sure shot (which is shit) to be silmilair to MoC & throw in a cure nearsight at higher bow spec, mebbee introduce some new arrows with utility so its worth being a fletcher (but thats another issue i guess) & id be a happy archer.

 

[Shike]

Shike: you want archery damage lowered? we are already the lowest in the food chain DPS wise.

No, not on 2k range, you arent, which is the mainproblem with archers. Up the utility or damage and archers get to be an even worse plauge than they actually already are. Im not saying you are, I mean archers in general and I always look at majority when I think something isnt balanced or is balanced. I made some earlier posts in this thread where I tried to explain how I as a nonarcher actually view bowspecced archers, its not a nice class to encounter in 99% of all cases, since they are parasites leeching of everything they can leech of, this fundamentally base in how I prefer to play the game ofc, if looking from a more loosened up view where adding doesnt matter, or zerging people down without any fair chanse whatsoever is perfectly fine, I will naturally have another point of view, its just that way it is.

Archery isnt mage power with stealth, its a mix of melee and magic rules taking the worse from both sides.
I played an archer from day 1, and you will find in other games (diablo, oblivion ect) my first choise will be an archer style.
I want to be able to play an archer, not a blademaster, warden, hero ect, i have a bow which i have spent most of my points training, i want to be able to use it.

I understand that, totally, I honestly do, but, as I said before, what makes it problematic is that archers have stealth and can come and go as they wish, and attack from the point they want to, not where you expect enemys to attack which always gives a good archer the upperhand regarding initiative. Which is why I think its good that brittles take the first shot at least. My comparison with a caster was solely based on the fact that it is ranged DPS we talk about here, which is what casters do best, I dont want archers to even be close to casterDPS, that would be a catastrophy.

As it is it has so many bugs and other classes have so many defences it is very hard to actually do anything.
I try when i get the chance to go out and have fun with him but it gets harder and harder, a lot of people are in the same boat as me and want to be able to have fun as an archer but are being consistantly pushed and forced to play in a manner that doesnt appeal to them.
Thats what this thread is trying to put forward, we dont want to be overpowered we just want to be able to play and have fun as archers.

It all depends on how you play the class, I cant really say I have anything whatsoever against soloplayed archers that actually search their own fights and try to kill on their own and I agree those archers could use a hand, but, if those are given help, then all the other archers will be affected and face it, archers playing with some sort of morale and code of honour are what, 1 in 100? (talking purely bowspecced archers now focused on doing ranged damage) Rest are leeching parasites that just never bother to pick their own fights and actively seek fights they can add on to get some RPs. I seriosly dont think they will change behaviour at all if given some proper love, they will just leech even more effective and what takes the most damage then is the game itself. Tesla for one even confirmed my theory in the matter as he is one of the archers that play in a disgusting way.

Fix bugs is fine ofc but that has nothing with bowlove to do, its bugfixing, as for all classes. The defenses MUST be there, or we will be overrun with even more archers, bowlove, nope, I will never ever think its a good idea, unless something very strange happens with the classes, like, if they happen to loose stealth for example, which puts everything into a totally different light.

 

[Shike]

Have you ever played an archer mate ?

Actually, my first hibtoon ever was a ranger that I played to rr6. So yes, I have.

Your arguments seem somwhat flawed in my opinion. Most of the reasons you've posted for archery not to be improved can be applied to half the classes in this game & all your reason's seem to stem from archer types adding on fg fights from range & im sorry but i think your way off the mark here. Remove archers from the game & all that will happen is that the people who play them will play somthing else to "add" on fights, its the mind set of the player that causes issues not the abilities of the class (i say this as a druid who hates being shot at in fights but who also hates being PA'd & nuked & petted yada yada yada by "adds" as well).

What differs archers from most classes it can be applied for, is stealth, which makes it very different in many ways. Stealth in itself is a very powerful tool if used right. Whats so flawed with that? And you hit the nail there, it is indeed the mindset, and fact is, the player with that type of mindset cannot find a better class to leech with, and guess what will happen if those are given love, its not hard to figure out. What will always differ a casteradd from an archeradd is, you can see it coming, you have lots of chanses to prevent it. I have been killed by duoscouts or hunters countless times, when I have already been engaged in fights with my group vs another group and I cant do shit about it, give me a spell with 2k range and sure, I wont whine about it but that will never ever happen. They already hurt like hell and no, I dont want them to hurt even more, then there just is no point in playing caster at all, since I will be a permanent pincushion from adding archers killing me all the time. No thank you, I dont want that, I would be an idiot if I didnt disagree, so is everyone playing a class without a shield or nearsight for some defense vs archers.

As for archers themselves ...

Bow damage doesnt need improving, spec high & you hit hard, anyone who says they can spec low bow is talking out of there arse if they say they can consistantly pump out the same DPS as somone with a high bow spec.

The main problems are the same old problems, "you cant get a good shot yet" .. "you cant see your target from here" .. "you cant get a crit shot off you switch to a standard shot .. somone farted in the next zone & interupts you .. & randomtargetwithanytypeofshieldstandingwithhisbacktoyou blocks your shot & the next 10 arrows too.

Sort these issues & address the issue of putting some utility in the Bow line & archers are pretty much fixed in my opinion, perhaps change sure shot (which is shit) to be silmilair to MoC & throw in a cure nearsight at higher bow spec, mebbee introduce some new arrows with utility so its worth being a fletcher (but thats another issue i guess) & id be a happy archer.

Do you actually want a class with 2.2k range to have uninterrupted possibility to do damage from that range? Did you just... ask for that? Wth have you been smoking? Gimme some of it!

Regarding LOS, heh, you do know all classes suffer from same problem? An experienced player would know how to position himself to avoid LOSproblems. Regarding interrupts, well, same rule for archers as for any class that can be interrupted, whats so strange with that? Shields are perfect as is, since its a defense well needed vs archers.

Remove stealth from archers and i dont mind them getting some proper bowlove since they wouldnt be able to move freely and do whatever they want to.

Make the damage scale with range, that way archers cant just stand at 2k range and shoot happily and just add freely, to do real damage they should be forced to move in closer and then, and only then, should some bowlove be given.

 

[Oshi - Dard]

What differs archers from most classes it can be applied for, is stealth, which makes it very different in many ways. Stealth in itself is a very powerful tool if used right. Whats so flawed with that? And you hit the nail there, it is indeed the mindset, and fact is, the player with that type of mindset cannot find a better class to leech with, and guess what will happen if those are given love, its not hard to figure out. What will always differ a casteradd from an archeradd is, you can see it coming, you have lots of chanses to prevent it. I have been killed by duoscouts or hunters countless times, when I have already been engaged in fights with my group vs another group and I cant do shit about it, give me a spell with 2k range and sure, I wont whine about it but that will never ever happen. They already hurt like hell and no, I dont want them to hurt even more, then there just is no point in playing caster at all, since I will be a permanent pincushion from adding archers killing me all the time. No thank you, I dont want that, I would be an idiot if I didnt disagree, so is everyone playing a class without a shield or nearsight for some defense vs archers.

You've been killed by duo scouts/hunters .. guess what, me too & also by Infils & SB's & SM's & Warlocks & BD's Sorc's & Wizzie's & probably also by every other offensive toon in game, regardless of what you say you cannot always see them coming although the point you make about shooting from stealth is true but only until the first shot is fired.

Do you actually want a class with 2.2k range to have uninterrupted possibility to do damage from that range? Did you just... ask for that? Wth have you been smoking? Gimme some of it!

Why not ? i dont see the big issue, if the archer is stood 2k units away rapid firing an experienced player would just walk in the opposite direction !?

Regarding LOS, heh, you do know all classes suffer from same problem? An experienced player would know how to position himself to avoid LOSproblems. Regarding interrupts, well, same rule for archers as for any class that can be interrupted, whats so strange with that? Shields are perfect as is, since its a defense well needed vs archers.

This may be incorrect now as i pretty much retired my ranger post ToA after the boom in total wankers playing them (though i still believe the class has problems which do need resolving) but archers have two LoS checks & having played most of hibs classes as well as a smattering of mids & albs im sure i see the "you cannot see your target" & "you cannot get a good shot yet" message's a whole lot more on my ranger that i ever did on another toon.

Remove stealth from archers and i dont mind them getting some proper bowlove since they wouldnt be able to move freely and do whatever they want to.

Couldnt care less about that if all the duo's, trio's & fg's promise to leave me alone when im solo-ing, although i do feel removing an entire specline after 4 years would somwhat alienate a fair percentage of an already dieing population.

Make the damage scale with range, that way archers cant just stand at 2k range and shoot happily and just add freely, to do real damage they should be forced to move in closer and then, and only then, should some bowlove be given.

Going to do the same with caster damage? especially those casters that also have some form of crowd control, ill agree to that also if thats the case.

 

[Gethin]

Interesting points raised there shike. If i remember rightly there used to be a 3-way dynamic in the game,

Assassins > Archers
Assassins > Casters
Archers > Casters

That mean't casters were supposed to be the natural prey of archers and assassins with assassins having the advantage over archers. (especially so when they had the old see hidden).

up until recent patches that dynamic was (primarily due to silly numbers of BG's, TOA and ML's)

Casters > Assassins
Casters > Archers
Assassins = Melee Specced Archers
Assassins > Bow Specced Archers.

In the Current Patch i would say the dynamic is as follows

Assassins > Casters
Assassins > All Archer types
Casters >= Archers

If the above dynamic is actually how it is atm, then the original game dynamic is still broken, albeit marginally.

You mention the problem of there being too many Archers in the game, im not so sure thats due to them being overpowered at 2k+ range, i think its more to do with class design. Archers are the great class to play, they are fun and perfect for the part time player. This tends to draw more people towards the class.

To use this as a case for not improving the class doesn't hold water. Not everyone can play the game 24/7, get access to the best items, Master levels etc, yet, they should be afforded a chance to be competitive in rvr.

Mythic has stated that they will not be removing abilities from classes so as thats the case i believe archers need some 'love'. I sure dont want to see massive changes to the bow line. A few tweaks here and there and they would be a decent if not overpowered rvr class.

The bow line certainly lacks utility at the highest levels and suffers from serious damage variance issues. Their may also be a case for a marginal increase in normal arrow damage to compensate for the effects of PD, RA5 abilities.

Interruptability is also another serious issue for scouts, which doesn't neccesarily apply in the same way to casters, due to 2 steps to fire rather than 1.

 

[Shike]

You've been killed by duo scouts/hunters .. guess what, me too & also by Infils & SB's & SM's & Warlocks & BD's Sorc's & Wizzie's & probably also by every other offensive toon in game, regardless of what you say you cannot always see them coming although the point you make about shooting from stealth is true but only until the first shot is fired.

Assassins jumping into a fight vs a good grp take a serious risk and usually end up getting killed, its silly hard to actually make a kill with all the CC flying around. Rest of the classes you mention, have their own issues, and some are overpowered but that is not a discussion that belongs in this thread. Archers have their own issues and those are that are beeing discussed, not sorcerers.

Why not ? i dont see the big issue, if the archer is stood 2k units away rapid firing an experienced player would just walk in the opposite direction !?

Yea sure, if its one..... and guess what, in a hectic fight, I usually never see my BT pop when im casting, next thing happening is a critshot for 1000, then another shot already is in the air, as a caster you dont have so much time to do anything before a well templated archer kills you. What have happend countless times is that I engage in a fight, then at some point I have to kite some since some bloody merc or whatever wants to kill me so I run off alil bit, guess what often pops when im trying my very best to kite? Pop, smack, smack, smack, dead. From someone I didnt even see so I cannot run in another direction, if its an assassin I can at least purge snares/disease/stun and just run for it, cant really run from arrows. Fair game? Hardly, but I accept it as it is, since I have no choice, but when ppl start asking for love, I react and protest ofc.

This may be incorrect now as i pretty much retired my ranger post ToA after the boom in total wankers playing them (though i still believe the class has problems which do need resolving) but archers have two LoS checks & having played most of hibs classes as well as a smattering of mids & albs im sure i see the "you cannot see your target" & "you cannot get a good shot yet" message's a whole lot more on my ranger that i ever did on another toon.

All classes have problems that could use some attention more or less, I cant think of many really finished classes. Some issues are larger than others however and in my humble opinion, archers bowspecc is very very far down on the list that need fixing. If it was so that archers was truly gimped and just sucked, then there wouldnt be any bowspecced archers out there except for the few hardcore bowlovers but, look around today, you should see that there are alot of bowspecced archers, then ask yourself, do those players enjoy playing gimped toons, or do they play because despite what so many says, it is actually a working specc. I vote for that it is a working specc, perhaps it isnt a lethal as Legolas riding on elephants shooting stuff down to left and right and they just die from one shot but.... In DAoC Id say that bowspecced archers actually can kill stuff, they have stealth to give them shelter and position in any way they want and sadly alot of the players playing the archetype give it a bad reputation as a whole. Making them better at killing from range will not change that view of archers as a whole, on the contrary, it would make them even more hated than they already are. Can you honestly say that you feel scouts are beeing played in a good way, that increase the fun in RvR for everyone? I just despice _most_ scouts, there are a few that actually play it well withoung beeing a tard but those are so few its sad.

Couldnt care less about that if all the duo's, trio's & fg's promise to leave me alone when im solo-ing, although i do feel removing an entire specline after 4 years would somwhat alienate a fair percentage of an already dieing population.

This was interesting, fair percentarge eh? I thought it was gimped, why would a fair percentage of the population play gimps? I dont quite understand your way of reasoning tbh The logic halts at least. And, you finally gave the answer to why people choose to play a stealthed longrangeclass, it gives shelter so you dont get killed from what you mentioned, dont you see how powerful that ability in itself actually is and how can you justify that classes that can do that, should be given more love, when already a fair percentarge plays it? There is a huge reason ppl play it, its spellled, S.T.E.A.L.T.H. And yet you try to do comparisons to other visible classes and it just aint that way. Go out solo with a caster and see how many kills you get before you get trashed, make it a mentalist for funs sake, also take notes and see how many times you actually get trashed from archers. Then do the math and see what Ive tried to explain to you in "reality" =)

Going to do the same with caster damage? especially those casters that also have some form of crowd control, ill agree to that also if thats the case.

Apples and oranges my friend, apples and oranges. You cannot compare them, they are fundamentally different in so many ways regarding defense, hitpoints, damageoutput, durability, utility, etc. I dont try to compare assassins to heavy tanks, it would be equally silly =)

 

[Nosufer]

There is a good reason why casters now run about bridges solo and/or in groups of 1-2, it's because the majority of them have the tools to easily despatch of archers and also assaisns if they are high enough RR and react fast enough.

The only casters that struggle with archers at his point in the game are mentalists, animists and wizards (until 1.83 when they get NS). Those 3 casters are the only targets that are fair game to a bow specced archer, the other 10 or so casters all have tools to beat stealthers especially bow specced archers.

 

[XenX]

i have my ranger, i have an enchanter, i have a mentalist, i have a wizard, a friar, a champion, an animist and err i think thats it.. and im sorry but the only character out of all of those where archers are actually a problem for me... is when im on my ranger.. lol

the reason for this is that when an archer shoots my ranger, i have to run all the way to them just taking the hits untill i get there, whereupon i get finished off in melee from like 2% health.

on ALL my other characters i dont even really include archers of any type in my list of "classes to be scared of" on my champ i will get critshotted for a lot of dmg but then use dd to interrupt and pwn them.. and on all my casters i will get hit twice if im not really paying attention, and if i am paying attention.. you will get my BT down, and while the second shot is hitting moreforsomerubbish dmg.. im already in range where i QC and start nuking /lifetapping /casting stun ..

iv spent a lot of time on both sides of it.. and yes when im on a caster and im standing still talking on /gu an archer is thinking "wohooo" while he crit shots me 3 times.. but other than that theres no situation where an archer is of any trouble (exept on towers but i just run away lol)

all we need is for Crit shot to break BT (it dont even have to break brittle)
assasins can have the ability to break brittle because they have to actually walk up to the caster (they dont even have to do that any more but whatever)

so if you have the ML's and you have a brittle up.. it will still block our first arrow and a brittle dying is pleanty of warning that your being shot at.

if you dont and your standing still.. and theres no sheild user protecting you.. then you will get hit for a lot of damage.. this is how IMO it was supposed to work in the first place and all we need to give bow users that little edge Vs casters that we want it wont make bow particularly interesting and it wont fix low bow spec melee archers, but as nobody cancome up with anything actually worth having without everyone else QQ'ing that its over powered.......

 

[Shike]

snip / but as nobody cancome up with anything actually worth having without everyone else QQ'ing that its over powered.......

yeps, that is deffo a problem.