Thread to discuss Archery improvements!

[censi]

no nate its generic.

 

[Bondoila]

(Easiest way to kill a caster with a ranger is to stealth close to him, use one arrow to remove bt/brittle then jump him and run through him all the time. As CD ranger try to use sidestun. If the caster moc's use fz.
Trying to kill a caster on range is impossible unless the mage play like shit, got crap gear or afking.)
Anyway the best for daoc in generall would be to completly remove the bow from the game on ranger, hunters and scouts. Give them a few more point extra for melee.
In general all that spec high in bow is only going to leech on other stealthers fights or add on fg fights.
When it comes to archers vs assassins I think the chanse to win or lose is pretty balanced for the first time in history.
Did play my ranger alot in OF and the result was that you lost 80-90% of all fights vs assasins (even lost alot of fights when using both ip and purge which was on 30 min.)

 

[Castus]

Just incase any1 from design reads this......... can i get some flaming arrows etc? maybe a new ml step instead of dumb stuiff like reveal mines crap

 

[Tesla Monkor]

well I do agree and I do understand some of your points but, nevertheless, further increased "power" of the archery would lead to the plague we suffer from atm getting even worse.

You dont seriosly think all the people like Tesla will change playstyle with some archerlove? Or the scouts camping everywhere just waiting for something to add on? THAT is the problem. Those asshats aint ever gonna change, and those asshats are a majority of the archers out there. Giving them love would be a proper disaster for DAoC as a whole I think.

I would rather see archers stripped of stealth, with added groupability. Thats what archers really would need. Giving archerylove in current state, no thanks, the game dont need an even better addingmachine out there.

Heh. You do have a honeyd tongue, Shike. Flattery will get you everywhere!

But true, if bow gets love, I will not change my playstyle. Why should I? I'm playing my huntress the way it should be played to begin with - as an archer. That doesn't mean that I won't cheer on any archery love - the fact that I play my underpowered archery-specced huntress with a zest of asshattery has nothing to do with that, and is no excuse to withhold archery improvements.

I couldn't care less about melee boosts - not that I wouldn't cheer on my meleeing brethern.

This thread already names almost all things you can do to avoid getting killed by an archer - and there is a whole more ways to not get killed by an archer than there are versus ANY other class ingame.

 

[Shike]

Heh. You do have a honeyd tongue, Shike. Flattery will get you everywhere!

But true, if bow gets love, I will not change my playstyle. Why should I? I'm playing my huntress the way it should be played to begin with - as an archer. That doesn't mean that I won't cheer on any archery love - the fact that I play my underpowered archery-specced huntress with a zest of asshattery has nothing to do with that, and is no excuse to withhold archery improvements.

I couldn't care less about melee boosts - not that I wouldn't cheer on my meleeing brethern.

This thread already names almost all things you can do to avoid getting killed by an archer - and there is a whole more ways to not get killed by an archer than there are versus ANY other class ingame.

Heh

Well I aint so wrong at least, which is what matters and yes, the way you play and so many other archers play your toons, is a large reason for why archery shouldnt be improved at all. The game do not need any more archers standing around shooting on everything, on the contrary, it would only make DAoC a worse game for the rest of the community since it most likely would mean an inflation in numbers of archers with bowspecc.

As I said before, I would rather like to see archers stripped of stealth (or nerfed down to mincerlvl of it), add some groupability to make them worth having in a group and after that, have a look at archery.

 

[Elrandhir]

i did 800 with crit shot on guerra today with 18 bow

That is rather wierd tbh, but the Bowline is rather strange, you don't do that much extra damage as imo you should when going high, you should do much less at lower lvles, maby it varies really much and you miss etc, but even at low lvl's you can get rather high damage, is abit strange imo.

 

[Elrandhir]

Heh

Well I aint so wrong at least, which is what matters and yes, the way you play and so many other archers play your toons, is a large reason for why archery shouldnt be improved at all. The game do not need any more archers standing around shooting on everything, on the contrary, it would only make DAoC a worse game for the rest of the community since it most likely would mean an inflation in numbers of archers with bowspecc.

As I said before, I would rather like to see archers stripped of stealth (or nerfed down to mincerlvl of it), add some groupability to make them worth having in a group and after that, have a look at archery.

I do see you'r point Shike, but everyone don't think in the way others do, and don't see it as adding but Helping and/or defending realm etc, and then this dosent apply atall, imo you need to see it from every perspectiv, even though I think it's cool with 1 vs 1, 8 vs 8, there is also RvR and then you want help/adding whatever.

When people talk about stuff they only seem to want to see it and judge by what they think is good and fair.

So even though I do understand what you mean I think you argument about why it should be as you say is abit narrowsighted (no rudeness meant by saying this)

 

[Shirel]

To get back to the original subject of the post, here's a few suggestions

slower bows made available to hunters
at 45 bow spec critical shot to work on moving targets
at 50 bow spec penetrating arrow 3 to have a chance (20%?) to go through personal BT and brittles
Trueshot to be removed as a RA a put into bow lines at 40, 45 & 50 bow spec on the same timers
a rear positional bow style that snares the target
50 bow & 50 combined stealth should have a 100% chance not to break stealth when a shot is drawn
Sure shot to work for melee attacks as well as ranged
Maybe a .5% increase to dps for each point above 45 bow

Don't get me wrong I'm not saying archers should get all of these. Personally I'd be happy with just the first two. Volley also needs looking at but I'm not sure how you would improve it.

If archer dps was raised significantly you would have to remove stealth imo.

Oh yes & I nearly forgot for god's sake give me a bow string graphic

 

[Jeriraa]

Oh yes & I nearly forgot for god's sake give me a bow string graphic

Hah, while at it change drawing animation. Can't be that my arms treble while drawing a bow with 370+ strength and 50+ bowskill.

 

[Matmardigan]

If you can't position yourself so that you can kill your target before it can get to you then I'm sorry for you. If you think before releasing the first arrow you should come out on top, you got range advantage, you got the option to choose when to reveal yourself. etc. etc. You need to use any thing that's giving you the upperhand before you engage in the fight. If you do that, then you will win.

WOW, thats the answer, CLOSE THE THREAD the ANSWER got found.

Just get urself into good position. Thats all?

Fuck, i must be a fool, i play since years a scout and i never thought about a good position 2 win a fight.

Thank u m8, ok clam down guys, clam down, the answer 4 our all problem got found.

Phule_Gubben is a GENIUS, HE got the answer

 

[censi]

shit yer! I think I might have been firing the arrows backto front too.

whats actually funny is not how totally retarded phules statement is, its that he actually believes it to be true.

all adds to the fun, daoc would be nothing without the clueless brigade.

 

[enigma]

I don't think I've seen this many posts that show a complete, and I mean complete, lack of knowledge about archery in this game ever before. Some of you guys have played this game since the start and STILL don't know shit about what you're talking about.

Good thing I quit a long time ago and no longer care, shame that Mythic aren't looking at archery untill the next two patches or so?

 

[Matmardigan]

Good thing I quit a long time ago and no longer care

guys which left the game ages ago, should get electro shocks from their mouse, if they post something here

tzzzz tzzzz

 

[enigma]

guys which left the game ages ago, should get electro shocks from their mouse, if they post something here

tzzzz tzzzz

Did I hit a sore spot or something?

I was ingame 2 weeks ago taking my scout for a ride, not that it matters, because my post added about as much or more sense to this thread than many of the posts the so called 'active' players posted.

<3

 

[Matmardigan]

Did I hit a sore spot or something?

nah, was just kidding.

 

[Shike]

I do see you'r point Shike, but everyone don't think in the way others do, and don't see it as adding but Helping and/or defending realm etc, and then this dosent apply atall, imo you need to see it from every perspectiv, even though I think it's cool with 1 vs 1, 8 vs 8, there is also RvR and then you want help/adding whatever.

When people talk about stuff they only seem to want to see it and judge by what they think is good and fair.

So even though I do understand what you mean I think you argument about why it should be as you say is abit narrowsighted (no rudeness meant by saying this)

No offense taken

And yes, sure, it is abit narrowminded since I aint much for "zerging for the realm" thingy

Fact still stand though, when we as a group engage another group at graveyard in emain, and we have 4 scouts adding on us, something is just plain wrong, it has always been like this and will always be, Im just saying that, giving those 4 scouts even better tools to kill us with, would be a disaster.

Most archers play it as a leecher/adder, stealth with longrange damage allows for that and its the coredesign that is bad, nothing else. Back in the days in early DAoC archers was gods, they did tremendous damage from range and it wasnt even funny, people ofc protested and archers got nerfed, I dont ever wanna go back to that old state, not even near it since the only ones who had fun from it was archers.

 

[Aiteal]

Back in the days in early DAoC archers was gods, they did tremendous damage from range and it wasnt even funny, people ofc protested and archers got nerfed, I dont ever wanna go back to that old state, not even near it since the only ones who had fun from it was archers.

Can you tell me how I am lvl 42 and totally buffed (I am an enh spec cleric) and ONE Archer does over 1100 points of damage to me before I can take 10 steps? The guy did a crit on me for 599 points and then two hits for approx 300 each. How in the world can Mythic justify that AND give them the speed to get away as well?

Well, I really can’t say I blame the guy for being a little traumatized.

from
http://www.camelotherald.com/more/203.shtml

terrible when a lvl42 char is 3 shot by a lvl50 ranger

 

[Jeriraa]

from
http://www.camelotherald.com/more/203.shtml

terrible when a lvl42 char is 3 shot by a lvl50 ranger

Yeah, gotta make sure that never happens again!

 

[Puppet]

Fact still stand though, when we as a group engage another group at graveyard in emain, and we have 4 scouts adding on us, something is just plain wrong, it has always been like this and will always be, Im just saying that, giving those 4 scouts even better tools to kill us with, would be a disaster.

Most archers play it as a leecher/adder, stealth with longrange damage allows for that and its the coredesign that is bad, nothing else. Back in the days in early DAoC archers was gods, they did tremendous damage from range and it wasnt even funny, people ofc protested and archers got nerfed, I dont ever wanna go back to that old state, not even near it since the only ones who had fun from it was archers.

The real problem with archers, and it seems only people who played archers, is that the damage 'you visibles' complain about is possible, but it doesnt come out of the 'blue' nor is it consistent.

If a Dark SM nukes me for 433 the first nuke, it will be 433 the 2nd, the 3rd etc. All going around the same time-window (prolly somewhere around a second cast-time). The DPS is easy to calculate, and therefore easy to balance (unfortunaly, not easy for Mythic xD).

Archery is something entirely different. Archery IMO was designed to be high damage, but high failure-rate. And delivered slowly. Archery miss-rate is high. Archery gets blocked by anything with a shield. Archery can ofcourse be evaded, intercepted or go into a Bladeturn. Mythic stripped the high damage, but left the failure-rate ingame.

Archery is something designed around the game 4-5 years ago. The game has changed, but archery-mechanics have not. Archers do not benefit from 'haste' and our draw-time is maxed out at 250 quickness.

Rapidfire means nothing for our DPS, we fire faster, but for lower max damage. 50% drawtime = 50% max-damage. Speccing more bow doesnt give us anything really besides more damage. Everyone else gets more damage from speccing a line, but also gains new spells or styles.

If you want to have any idea on how an archer works: Get your local caster, strip his DEX and DEX/QUI buff, but keep his acuity buff. Now imagine *EVERYTHING* u want to nuke :

a) Resists the first 2+ nukes, next to your normal 20% resist-rate
b) 20% of the enemies you find is 100% resistant to your damage.
c) Enemy has about 40% resists
d) You do not have CC or pets or anything besides a DD-nuke.
e) You do not have quickcast.

I think thats a fair approximation of archery. It wouldnt be too bad if you did this 4 years ago, but in the current game its just gimped.

 

[Shike]

The real problem with archers, and it seems only people who played archers, is that the damage 'you visibles' complain about is possible, but it doesnt come out of the 'blue' nor is it consistent.

If a Dark SM nukes me for 433 the first nuke, it will be 433 the 2nd, the 3rd etc. All going around the same time-window (prolly somewhere around a second cast-time). The DPS is easy to calculate, and therefore easy to balance (unfortunaly, not easy for Mythic xD).

Archery is something entirely different. Archery IMO was designed to be high damage, but high failure-rate. And delivered slowly. Archery miss-rate is high. Archery gets blocked by anything with a shield. Archery can ofcourse be evaded, intercepted or go into a Bladeturn. Mythic stripped the high damage, but left the failure-rate ingame.

Archery is something designed around the game 4-5 years ago. The game has changed, but archery-mechanics have not. Archers do not benefit from 'haste' and our draw-time is maxed out at 250 quickness.

Rapidfire means nothing for our DPS, we fire faster, but for lower max damage. 50% drawtime = 50% max-damage. Speccing more bow doesnt give us anything really besides more damage. Everyone else gets more damage from speccing a line, but also gains new spells or styles.

If you want to have any idea on how an archer works: Get your local caster, strip his DEX and DEX/QUI buff, but keep his acuity buff. Now imagine *EVERYTHING* u want to nuke :

a) Resists the first 2+ nukes, next to your normal 20% resist-rate
b) 20% of the enemies you find is 100% resistant to your damage.
c) Enemy has about 40% resists
d) You do not have CC or pets or anything besides a DD-nuke.
e) You do not have quickcast.

I think thats a fair approximation of archery. It wouldnt be too bad if you did this 4 years ago, but in the current game its just gimped.

And I know about all those points Pupp, is why I say, the coredesign is infact bad, and nothing but bad. I aint saying archers are uber or anything, I just know how a majority of the people playing archers play it. They see a fight, they draw the bow and add/leech whatever. What differs them from a casteradd is, casters cannot PS and run off if someone want to kill them with range, casters cannot stealth up to a fight and add after he selected target for 5s, caster cannot be on bowrange and do damage either. CCers can deal with visible adds, and also assasins adding, but.. archers is a totally different thing, I really cant understand why archers are so eager to get more bowutility or damage since, what do they intend to do with it?

Hypotethic, Archers get archerlove, and specc bow, assassins will eat them alive most likely I think? I mean, archer as is now has to be solid meleespecced or he will eat dirt vs a rank3 assassins in most cases. So why specc higher bow in the first place when it still wont do much good since the natural hunter of archers is assassins. (on NS my mainRPincome was probably from silly scouts that there are tons of.) It still means archers are only good for the usual adding/leeching/towercamping anyway as they are now when they are bowspecced with a few exceptions out there.

To me it just seem as archers want it even easier to make RPs from using the bow with good range where they are pretty much untouchable if they decide to add or camp. Ofc this isnt the case when it comes to a few people but, are you guys so naive to think that archerlove would make anything _better_, at all? What would the game and the community benefit from archers getting more solid DPS with their bows, other than the archers themselves that is? And can you lot explain to me, why is it so that, if archers are so bloody gimp with bows, why are there so many that actually plays scouts for instance? I know the reason but, when you take that reason and put that fact together with my points I try to put forth, you should understand why I dont want archerlove of any kind.

I can understand the arguement that an archetypes mainspeccline should be a solid line but, the game developed in a certain way and it unfortunately meant that the stealtherpopulation exploded some time ago, at that point I would have chosen to put in more counters vs any kind of stealthers to keep some control over the numbers of them and perhaps even lessen them but that didnt happen and numbers of stealthers have grown to be quite alot these days. The numbers on their own arent so bad but, the way stealthers play made me feel nothing much else but contempt for the majority of them, I see this when I play stealther aswell as any visible class. Imo stealther should be hard to play, really hard and challenging so only the better players would stand doing it with success. Many stealthers just zerg and add their way to rank10 with ease and they probably just laugh while doing it. Making it even easier for those players? Why? You have to remember someone have to pay the price for it too.

 

[anioal]

well, it seems that all than can be said about archery has been said already but nevertheless i will add my story to the pile

back in OF i was 45 bow and as ra's i had longshot (prereq for voley) and voley and i had fun with my ranger being able to kill caster and sometimes light tanks and not only.

then toa came and i droped bow to 35 when a sorc managed to lifetap me inbetween my unintreruptible from range sureshot hits - note that i was doing about 180-250 dmg with sureshot and the sorc was lifetaping me back for 350-400

now i am full melee with 1 recurve and i think it says all.

regarding the improvements i think archery should get eighter melee dynamics - with styles in bow line, the ability to fire 'unstyled' with zero endurance left and also being able to shot the bow while moving
or
caster dynamics without any variance on dmg, an equivalent to moc and arrows unaffected by brittles, fumble, evade and all the crap that makes the bowman usefull only when he's grouped with 3 other archers and ontop a lvl10 keep walls

 

[Phule_Gubben]

shit yer! I think I might have been firing the arrows backto front too.

whats actually funny is not how totally retarded phules statement is, its that he actually believes it to be true.

all adds to the fun, daoc would be nothing without the clueless brigade.

your suggestions are totally dumbfunded thou.

"oh noes, I can't oneshoot everything, whine whine whine."

Seems to me you'd like to have a stealth class that can stun the opponent and then kill it in 2-3 secs. oh wait, you already have that, except the stealth part. it's called Chanter, Eldritch and Mentalist.

Matmardigan, keep it up mate. you're making me giggle.

 

[Gethin]

well I do agree and I do understand some of your points but, nevertheless, further increased "power" of the archery would lead to the plague we suffer from atm getting even worse.

You dont seriosly think all the people like Tesla will change playstyle with some archerlove? Or the scouts camping everywhere just waiting for something to add on? THAT is the problem. Those asshats aint ever gonna change, and those asshats are a majority of the archers out there. Giving them love would be a proper disaster for DAoC as a whole I think.

I would rather see archers stripped of stealth, with added groupability. Thats what archers really would need. Giving archerylove in current state, no thanks, the game dont need an even better addingmachine out there.

Ok if you dont give archers love then maybe its time to tone down casting classes dps and survivability. You cant have your cake and eat it as they say.

If you want the ability to kill things in seconds, your targets are going to ask for the same ability. If you dont have that parity then the game becomes onesided and it crashes and burns (which is happening as we speak with casters ruling all forms of the game)

 

[Gethin]

I read somewhere earlier about archers adding on fights constantly. I am as guilty of this as any other archer and im not proud of the fact. However there is a very good reason for this. GIVE me the ability to reliably kill other classes and ill happily not add. I solo non stop (and i mean solo) and i cant kill rr2 casters even if i get the jump on them. For a rr7 with the best bow specced template in the game that has to say something is wrong.

Before you say your shit, ill admit im not the best in melee (i hate melee), but with a bow I know how to play this game and im telling you the archery mechanic is badly broken.

Bow specced archers need some serious love in Speed, Damage, interrupts and styles departments while melee specced archers need a serious nerf to their bow damage.

An example of this is I would happily give up critshot if i could hit for 400+ damage every second.

 

[censi]

"oh noes, I can't oneshoot everything, whine whine whine."QUOTE]

just a suggestion when you quote someone, it generally helps if you actually quote something they say rather than something you make up. ( )

Seems to me you'd like to have a stealth class that can stun the opponent and then kill it in 2-3 secs. oh wait, you already have that, except the stealth part. it's called Chanter, Eldritch and Mentalist.[/

oh...
my...
god...

what has this statement got to do with anything! This is a post to discuss ways in which the archery system could be improved and you come up with the most retarded statement of the year.

 

[Konstantin]

they dont need anything......

 

[Ryuno]

Theres loads of talk on the Critshot forums about this, and has been going on for some time, mainly in the scout forums.

According to Mythic, they hope to address archery concerns in the june or August Patch, so thats a long wait for us Hopefully something decent will actually get done though.

I definetly agree that you should not be able to spec as a great melee and still be able to bow, but thats not really what this topic is about

Gifv archery improvements fgs!

 

[enigma]

Make quickness above 250 add to archery haste, remove brittle guards' ability to block arrows, remake self BT into an instant spell with a 10 second cooldown. That will add some skill to the archery concept by having to time sureshots everynow and then aswell.


That's all.

 

[Konstantin]

reduce their dmg by 50% maby then they "could" get something new. Best would if they just removed stealh from the game...

 

[Puppet]

And I know about all those points Pupp, is why I say, the coredesign is infact bad, and nothing but bad. I aint saying archers are uber or anything, I just know how a majority of the people playing archers play it. They see a fight, they draw the bow and add/leech whatever. What differs them from a casteradd is, casters cannot PS and run off if someone want to kill them with range, casters cannot stealth up to a fight and add after he selected target for 5s, caster cannot be on bowrange and do damage either. CCers can deal with visible adds, and also assasins adding, but.. archers is a totally different thing, I really cant understand why archers are so eager to get more bowutility or damage since, what do they intend to do with it?

Ehmm... This is a really interesting way to discuss, but fundamentally wrong. Why did casters get a DD179 baseline (for the most part) and not a DD100? I mean what are they intend to do with it ?

The answer is simple really: To kill stuff! In the current game, archery is underperforming compared to what other classes get. We cannot reliably kill stuff with our main thing: The bow. The fact archers are for the most part 'leeching *****' is quite irrelevant to the fact archery-DPS and mechanics are lacking.

To me, from a solo-PoV, casters are for the most part the 'leeching *****'. Why not tone down their damage by 80%, since they are only leeching.

All I want is archery to be a viable way of killing CERTAIN stuff. Im not asking for 'two shotting everything including paladins'. Something is obviously flawed when a SOLO caster is running past, and I cant kill it with my bow. Thats what I want : Let archery be a viable spec-line so I can kill people with it, as intended .

Hypotethic, Archers get archerlove, and specc bow, assassins will eat them alive most likely I think? I mean, archer as is now has to be solid meleespecced or he will eat dirt vs a rank3 assassins in most cases. So why specc higher bow in the first place when it still wont do much good since the natural hunter of archers is assassins. (on NS my mainRPincome was probably from silly scouts that there are tons of.) It still means archers are only good for the usual adding/leeching/towercamping anyway as they are now when they are bowspecced with a few exceptions out there.

If you take for example a scout: A scout specced purely towards melee will loose against any decent nightshade. He will loose also against a nightshade if he's specced bow. Im sure most scouts can live with that IF they can atleast kill that Runemaster running by, that Eldritch, that druid etc. At the moment, with brittleguards, (P)BT and more defensive tools and the way interruption works for archers, they cannot. They are forced to leech if they want to make any kills.

To me it just seem as archers want it even easier to make RPs from using the bow with good range where they are pretty much untouchable if they decide to add or camp. Ofc this isnt the case when it comes to a few people but, are you guys so naive to think that archerlove would make anything _better_, at all? What would the game and the community benefit from archers getting more solid DPS with their bows, other than the archers themselves that is? And can you lot explain to me, why is it so that, if archers are so bloody gimp with bows, why are there so many that actually plays scouts for instance? I know the reason but, when you take that reason and put that fact together with my points I try to put forth, you should understand why I dont want archerlove of any kind.

I can understand the arguement that an archetypes mainspeccline should be a solid line but, the game developed in a certain way and it unfortunately meant that the stealtherpopulation exploded some time ago, at that point I would have chosen to put in more counters vs any kind of stealthers to keep some control over the numbers of them and perhaps even lessen them but that didnt happen and numbers of stealthers have grown to be quite alot these days. The numbers on their own arent so bad but, the way stealthers play made me feel nothing much else but contempt for the majority of them, I see this when I play stealther aswell as any visible class. Imo stealther should be hard to play, really hard and challenging so only the better players would stand doing it with success. Many stealthers just zerg and add their way to rank10 with ease and they probably just laugh while doing it. Making it even easier for those players? Why? You have to remember someone have to pay the price for it too.

Interesting point, however I dont see how this treat is unique to archers (or stealthers). From my PoV, the majority of people zerg, add and leech their way to RR10, not limited to stealthers only, but same for casters, support and tanks.

Why should stealthers be looked at differently ? Because they ruin 8 vs 8 ? Is 8vs8 more important then 1vs1? Or 2vs2? Or zerg vs zerg.. or Realm versus Realm ? No! All are an equal important part of the game.

Warlocks where adjusted coz they where imbalanced in 1vs1, so was Remedy introduced to all assassins. Berserkers where adjusted coz they where imbalancing in 8vs8, etc etc.

I can see your point why you dont want archery-love, because you're afraid they even have a bigger impact on your 8vs8 with their leeching/adding/zerging.

However, wizard-love was welcomed by alot of people, eventho they can leech/add/zerg in the same way an archer can do. Big deal archers can phaseshift and stealth: A typical FG has enough tools to make sure the archer will not get away (pet, amnesia, CC etc). Archers do not have Vanish for example. Loads of 'valueable' 8vs8 class-members have Get-away tools aswell: Eldritch can RR5 away when spotted. Sorc can QC-mezz/root, speedwarp and get out, etc etc.

It is simply an unfair argument that archers should not be boosted just because they will do stuff to your preferred way of playing which it will impact negatively for you.