The Muamba tweets

[Scouse]

Only you could possibly think that Israel could be "wiped off the map" without an Israeli genocide. There is no outcome where the Israelis vote themselves into oblivion. Turkeys don't vote for Christmas.

No. It has to be imposed from the outside.

Just like we did when we set up israel in the first place - and then spent the next 60-odd years arming them to the teeth and helping them bosh the local wogs on the head.

 

[old.Tohtori]

The solution is to have one state - with free, open, democratic and equal elections for all with equal rights for all ingrained as a fundamental tenet of a constitution.

They can't. Simple as that. The balance of power is firmly in Israel's hands. And do you think Israel wants peace?

It has to be imposed from the outside.

Heh 2 - The re-heh'ining.

 

[DaGaffer]

No. It has to be imposed from the outside.

Just like we did when we set up israel in the first place - and then spent the next 60-odd years arming them to the teeth and helping them bosh the local wogs on the head.

Aaand, you're back where you started. If "Annoyingreligiouscrossroadswhichiwishwouldfallintothesea-isstan" was set up, you'd have jewish terrorists committing atrocities against their arab occupiers (and the poor fucking blue-helmets who would have to administer the place). Nothing would change. Even if every Jew was thrown into the sea the Sunnis and Shia would just start fighting each other over the spoils. Too much history, too much blood and too many fucking morons on every side.

 

[rynnor]

The facts are that we've set up a religious centre by displacing the indigenous population

It's not that simple - the Jewish people were indigenous to that area as well before being driven out - the real culprit was us in Europe.

Before the Crusades Jew, Christian and Muslim lived side by side without real issues. Then Crusaders came and ethnically cleansed the cities in the Holy land (by the old method of killing everyone who was different). After that the Muslim states took a harder line and eventually took back all their cities but the memory of the Crusader atrocities meant toleration was gone.

The Jews are about the only side that haven't massacred the other 2 and killed all their people - the IDF do go to really quite extreme lengths to avoid civilian casualties but no state could tolerate mass rocket attacks on its cities.

 

[Scouse]

Even if every Jew was thrown into the sea the Sunnis and Shia would just start fighting each other over the spoils. Too much history, too much blood and too many fucking morons on every side.

I think this is overly pessimistic. (The state would have to be secular btw)

I think a one-state solution is the only viable solution and I think the palestinians would grab that with both hands. They're probably pretty damn sick of death and violence by now - but they'll still fight.

I'm not saying it would be easy - but the status quo is unacceptable.


I disagree with rynnors's assessment of israeli activities too. They've killed thousands, walled a people in, decide how many calories the population needs to live and then ensures they get less than required, separate families, deny policing in certain areas to stoke crime, actively kill legitimately elected politicians - wherever they are in the world, yadda yadda yadda.

Oh yes - and openly say they're going to "show the palestinians what a holocaust is"...

...convenient that everyone talks about the palestinian's threats but doesn't seem to care when top government leaders say that, isn't it?


Israel is an illness. One I think that hard work, pain and democracy can cure.

 

[rynnor]

I disagree with rynnors's assessment of israeli activities too. They've killed thousands, walled a people in, decide how many calories the population needs to live and then ensures they get less than required, separate families, deny policing in certain areas to stoke crime, actively kill legitimately elected politicians - wherever they are in the world, yadda yadda yadda.

There's no clean way to fight an enemy who actively uses the civilian population as a shield - thats the reality sadly.

 

[DaGaffer]

I think this is overly pessimistic. (The state would have to be secular btw)

And I think you're being desperately naive.

1. Given the evidence of the so-called "Arab spring", what's the first thing that happens when a moslem-dominated country get's the vote? They immediately vote themselves an "islamic" state. Why on Earth would it be different here? How do you force a state to remain secular when the population democratically say they don't want it? Its the worry Turkey faces all the time and they've had a secular state for nearly a century and they're still sliding into islamism.

2. Given how Israel was set up in the first place, and given that every able-bodied adult is combat trained, you really think the population of a deposed Israel are going to put down their arms and acquiesce to in imposed state, no matter who's pointing a gun a them? You've got to be joking. (Especially when they could access levels of funding from the diaspora that would make Noraid look a child's piggy bank).

 

[Scouse]

There's no clean way to fight an enemy who actively uses the civilian population as a shield - thats the reality sadly.

I guess there's no clean way to stand up to a vastly superior military oppressor without using civilian shields is there?

Unless you're saying the Hamas military wing should stand in the open with flags saying "we're here - you can exterminate us and not get any flak for it"...

 

[throdgrain]

Great sentiments Scouse me ol chum but staggeringly naive

 

[Scouse]

And I think you're being desperately naive

Like I said, imposed from the outside - none of the factions will ever be happy with a secular state.

As for the military imposition - the israeli military superiority would rather quickly disappear if we stopped providing them with the things they need to keep their military running. The only reason they're vastly militarily superior is that we keep giving them shit.

It matters not one bit how much cash they can call upon if we actually let the bazillions of sanctions that keep getting passed against them, democratically, do their work. And impose more.

Want to buy bullets/gun parts/fuel/get more nukes/yadda yadda yadda? Then you can FUCK OFF until you demolish the GIANT CONCENTRATION CAMP you've constructed for the Palestinians and learn to live together, you fucking religious nutjob children.

I'm talking a sea-change attitude from the west. NATO should be pulling out of Afghanistan and putting everything we've got in there instead. No more Knessett. No Hamas political rule. We've done it once, we can do it again. Israel is the biggest political problem we have - it forms the one-level up from the Koran justification of a bazillion islamic terrorists.

Mbingimbungoland is what it is...

 

[Scouse]

Great sentiments Scouse me ol chum but staggeringly naive

I don't think it's naive to be correct.

I think it's fucking disgraceful and to our massive shame that we don't act the way we should.

 

[rynnor]

The other thing to remember is that the Palastinians are just pawns in a proxy war between Iran and Israel so even if the Palastinian people wanted peace Hamas and its backers wouldn't let them.

I don't even think its possible to have democratic elections in Gaza while its in the stranglehold of Hamas.

 

[DaGaffer]

Like I said, imposed from the outside - none of the factions will ever be happy with a secular state.

Imposed from outside by who and with what? This is the point. Several million ex-Israelis with guns and deep pockets would make the Taliban look like Tinkerbell (and we've done such a great job suppressing that particular "threat" haven't we?). You'd have to kill them wholesale to impose any kind of successor state to Israel. If anything, the Jews in the role of insurgent rather than conventional military power could end up even worse than the situation we're in now (personally I'd say would not could). Even if you cut off their arms supply of heavy weapons, there are more than enough rich jews in the world to keep a Jewish insurgency in RPGs and IEDs for the rest of time, and if there was a group of people more likely to get hold of nukes and not give a fuck about using them, it would be "ex-Israelis".

 

[Chilly]

The other thing to remember is that the Palastinians are just pawns in a proxy war between Iran and Israel so even if the Palastinian people wanted peace Hamas and its backers wouldn't let them.

I don't even think its possible to have democratic elections in Gaza while its in the stranglehold of Hamas.

Hamas were elected.

 

[rynnor]

Hamas were elected.

That's why I said "I don't even think its possible to have democratic elections in Gaza while its in the stranglehold of Hamas."

There's no way a population effectively occupied by a terrorist group can be considered to have proper democratic elections - its like voting with a gun to your head.

 

[Chilly]

Yeah, but my point is that that's what the locals asked for. They wanted militants in charge, that's how they voted.

 

[noblok]

the IDF do go to really quite extreme lengths to avoid civilian casualties but no state could tolerate mass rocket attacks on its cities.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahiya_doctrine

 

[rynnor]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahiya_doctrine

If that was their plan there would be thousands dead already in the last few days - it clearly isnt how they are operating.

 

[rynnor]

Yeah, but my point is that that's what the locals asked for. They wanted militants in charge, that's how they voted.

"There's no way a population effectively occupied by a terrorist group can be considered to have proper democratic elections - its like voting with a gun to your head."

 

[Scouse]

If that was their plan there would be thousands dead already in the last few days - it clearly isnt how they are operating.

Rubbish.

It's not some bloke who made that up - it's straight from the United Nations fact finding report.

In its operations in southern Lebanon in 2006, there emerged from Israeli military thinking a concept known as the Dahiya doctrine, as a result of the approach taken to the Beirut neighbourhood of that name. Major General Gadi Eisenkot, the Israeli Northern Command chief, expressed the premise of the doctrine: What happened in the Dahiya quarter of Beirut in 2006 will happen in every village from which Israel is fired on. […] We will apply disproportionate force on it and cause great damage and destruction there. From our standpoint, these are not civilian villages, they are military bases. […] This is not a recommendation. This is a plan. And it has been approved.

But no. It's definitely not happening. It's definitely not announced by the Israeli government. It's all the palestinian's own fault eh?

 

[noblok]

It continues...

With an outbreak of hostilities, the IDF will need to act immediately, decisively, and with force that is disproportionate to the enemy's actions and the threat it poses. Such a response aims at inflicting damage and meting out punishment to an extent that will demand long and expensive reconstruction processes. The strike must be carried out as quickly as possible, and must prioritize damaging assets over seeking out each and every launcher. [...]

This approach is applicable to the Gaza Strip as well. There, the IDF will be required to strike hard at Hamas and to refrain from the cat and mouse games of searching for Qassam rocket launchers. The IDF should not be expected to stop the rocket and missile fire against the Israeli home front through attacks on the launchers themselves, but by means of imposing a ceasefire on the enemy.

 

[rynnor]

But no. It's definitely not happening. It's definitely not announced by the Israeli government. It's all the palestinian's own fault eh?

The firepower they have already launched could have killed thousands if they were looking to take out civilians - it hasn't because it has all been intelligence lead and superbly targeted against Hamas.

Therefore they are not targeting civilians - simples eh?

 

[Scouse]

Therefore they are not targeting civilians - simples eh?

You know better than the UN do you - and you don't believe Israel's own *announcement* that they're doing this?

FFS. They can't indescriminately target civilians. They could just as easily roll through with tanks - but they can't do that and not make themselves pariahs in the eyes of the western civilians that they rely on to keep them in guns n ammo.

But they can cause disproportionate damage. - And I'd say 600+ injured, ~100 dead to a handful of Israeli's "disproportionate".

They're as bad as Hitler. The only thing stopping them going the whole hog is that we wouldn't stand for it.

 

[Mabs]

i must of read a different thing to you, the one i read said civilian INFRASTRUCTURE not "civilians"

 

[rynnor]

But they can cause disproportionate damage. - And I'd say 600+ injured, ~100 dead to a handful of Israeli's "disproportionate".

Israel are using state of the art missile defences and the civilians are sleeping in bomb shelters - without such measures there would be a lot more Israeli dead - a Hamas rocket hit a school today...

No state would tolerate that - I am amazed at Israel's self control tbh.

 

[Job]

You can't come marching back thousands of years later to claim land, I mean WTF, couldn't they have got some non descript part of the US outback, like the Iranian president suggested, why did they plonk themselves right in the middle of guaranteed mayhem.

 

[rynnor]

They can't The only thing stopping them going the whole hog is that we wouldn't stand for it.

Who is this we - is this the we standing by watching towns being bombed to nothing in Syria, or the we that sat back and let the Serbs butcher muslims in the former Yugoslavia, the we that did nothing when the Hutu massacred the Tutsi's - stop me when we get to this we that actually intervenes in things that dont concern their energy supply?

 

[rynnor]

You can't come marching back thousands of years later to claim land, I mean WTF, couldn't they have got some non descript part of the US outback, like the Iranian president suggested, why did they plonk themselves right in the middle of guaranteed mayhem.

It's their home and central to their culture - I dont find it that hard to understand?

 

[noblok]

i must of read a different thing to you, the one i read said civilian INFRASTRUCTURE not "civilians"

"Oh, we're not really targeting you. We're just demolishing your house..."

The concept of what constituted the supporting infrastructure has to be understood not only in the context of the military operations of December and January, but in the tightening of the restrictions of access to goods and people into and out of Gaza, especially since Hamas took power. The Mission does not accept that these restrictions can be characterized as primarily an attempt to limit the flow of materials to armed groups. The expected impact, and the Mission believes primary purpose, was to bring about a situation in which the civilian population wouldfind life so intolerable that they would leave (if that were possible) or turn Hamas out of office, as well as to collectively punish the civilian population.

[...]

The indiscriminate and disproportionate impact of the restrictions on the movement of goods and people indicates that, from as early as some point in 2007, Israel had already determined its view about what constitutes attacking the supporting infrastructure, and it appears to encompass effectively the population of Gaza.

• The soldiers deliberately subjected civilians, including women and children, to cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment throughout their ordeal in order to terrorize, intimidate and humiliate them. The men were made to strip, sometimes naked, at different stages of their detention. All the men were handcuffed in a most painful manner and blindfolded, increasing their sense of fear and helplessness;

• Men, women and children were held close to artillery and tank positions, where constant shelling and firing was taking place, thus not only exposing them to danger, but increasing their fear and terror. This was deliberate, as is apparent from the fact that the sandpits to which they were taken were specially prepared and surrounded by barbed wire;

• During their detention in the Gaza Strip, whether in the open or in houses, the detainees were subjected to beatings and other physical abuse that amounts to torture. This continued systematically throughout their detention;

• Civilians were used as human shields by the Israeli armed forces on more than one occasion in one of the three incidents. Taking account of other incidents in which the Mission has found this to have happened, it would not be difficult to conclude that this was a practice repeatedly adopted by the Israeli armed forces during the military operation in Gaza;

• The methods of interrogation amounted not only to torture in some of the cases, but also to physical and moral coercion of civilians to obtain information;

• These persons were subjected to torture, maltreatment and foul conditions in the prisons. They were deprived of food and water for several hours at a time and any food they did receive was inadequate and inedible;

 

[rynnor]

"Oh, we're not really targeting you. We're just demolishing your house..."

Infrastructure isnt houses - just saying...

It means stuff like power stations/networks, communications, transport etc. - the reality is that the missiles Hamas are launching come from Iran and are brought in via Egypt and Israel need to do something to interrupt that supply.