The Muamba tweets

[Scouse]

i must of read a different thing to you, the one i read said civilian INFRASTRUCTURE not "civilians"

Funny. There's a whole chapter with the heading:

DELIBERATE ATTACKS AGAINST THE CIVILIAN POPULATION

And, even if that wasn't true (tho it is), civilian infrastructure is not a legitimate target. We're talking sewage plants, hospitals and schools when we're talking about civilian infrastructure.

 

[Scouse]

It's their home and central to their culture - I dont find it that hard to understand?

FuckLOL!

It means stuff like power stations/networks, communications, transport etc. - the reality is that the missiles Hamas are launching come from Iran and are brought in via Egypt and Israel need to do something to interrupt that supply.

The reality is that the "missiles" that Hamas are using regularly fail to leave their own areas and have only just recently become proper propellant-based rockets as opposed to home-made mortars.

They're fucking pea-shooters compared to the some of the most powerful military items in the world.

I don't see Palestinians raining down white phosphorous on the civilian population. Or even having the ability to target their hospitals and schools - it's blind luck if one of their projectiles hit.

It's a fucking joke.

 

[Mabs]

Funny. There's a whole chapter with the heading:


And, even if that wasn't true (tho it is), civilian infrastructure is not a legitimate target. We're talking sewage plants, hospitals and schools when we're talking about civilian infrastructure.

that wasnt aimed at you, i was taking issue with rynnor about him saying they were targetting civilians

and i know what it is

 

[rynnor]

that wasnt aimed at you, i was taking issue with rynnor about him saying they were targetting civilians

and i know what it is

Huh? <confused> I was arguing that they aren't targetting civilians?

 

[rynnor]

On a different tack is it just me or do both sides have really awful spokespeople who just dont play to western audiences?

The Israeli spokespeople always come accross as really stiff and somewhat robotic - the Hamas spokespeople are generally somewhat slovenly and have a high tendency to rant.

I think a smart, non-ranting spokesperson would make Hamas appear far more credible to western audiences?

Likewise an Israeli who looked genuinely concerned and sympathetic about civilian casualties and didnt speak like a robot would help convince the neutrals.

As it is both sides tend to turn off western audiences - its like seeing a couple having a domestic in the street tbh.

 

[Ctuchik]

Well...it's a message on the internet..it's nasty but who cares, frankly?

Maybe it's time we started caring?

Despite popular belief, the term "what happens on the internet stays on the internet" isn't actually true..

The internet is not an anarchy even though many would like it to be, and it's due time people started facing consequences for stupid things like this..

 

[Job]

It's their home and central to their culture - I dont find it that hard to understand?

Interesting explanation, must remember to give back half the world to the original inhabitants.
The idea of a Jewish 'homeland' is based on the tallest of tall stories from the bible and that means it's made up.

 

[mr.Blacky]

Rubbish.

It's not some bloke who made that up - it's straight from the United Nations fact finding report.

Sorry but did you even read the first page?
HUMAN RIGHTS IN PALESTINE AND OTHER OCCUPIED ARAB TERRITORIES.
Sorry for the capitals, but at the moment there is no Palestine according to the UN. They are not a nation,
not recognized by the UN at least. So a biased report, granted they did not have much choice considering Israel did not talk to them.

 

[mr.Blacky]

The reality is that the "missiles" that Hamas are using regularly fail to leave their own areas and have only just recently become proper propellant-based rockets as opposed to home-made mortars.

They're fucking pea-shooters compared to the some of the most powerful military items in the world.

Military weakness does not make one right or wrong, using that excuse is rather weak.

 

[Scouse]

Sorry for the capitals, but at the moment there is no Palestine according to the UN. They are not a nation

For fucks sake Blacky. That the best you've got? A report by the UN Council of Human Rights themselves - and you're saying that they're "not designated a country" so the report is invalid.

Are you for real? Or are you some judaeo-christian nutjob?

 

[mr.Blacky]

Interesting explanation, must remember to give back half the world to the original inhabitants.
The idea of a Jewish 'homeland' is based on the tallest of tall stories from the bible and that means it's made up.

Check Roman history they have been there for a while so not just the bible or the torah.
Also were you not saying earlier in the thread that "they were driven out of their land, their property and houses stolen. and it was not right?"
Happened to the Jews and to the Palestinians, so it is not right for one but right for the other?

 

[mr.Blacky]

For fucks sake Blacky. That the best you've got? A report by the UN Council of Human Rights themselves - and you're saying that they're "not designated a country" so the report is invalid.

Are you for real? Or are you some judaeo-christian nutjob?

Not saying it is invalid just stating it is biased, you do know the difference right?
Or are you stating here and now the UN is not made up out of people with different thoughts?
Are you that simple? Everyone has prejudice, so claiming a report is not biased cause it was made by the UN Council of Human Rights is damn silly.

 

[Scouse]

Are you that simple?

Not as simple as you, obviously. It's a report of a fact-finding mission and reports on both sides. By it's nature it reports verifiable facts.

Did you even look at it? No. You didn't did you.

Biased?

 

[Zenith]

Mr Blacky: Whether or not the UN recognize them as a nation doesnt matter, SHOULDNT matter. And I dont follow your argument, why would it be a biased report? Furthermore, you actually call the UN biased in such a important issue? From what stand point?

Get to fuck with all the discussions of taking side. There's no time. People are dying. Israel is using disappriopriate use of force against a mostly helpless civilian population in Gaza, and hitting civilian infrastructure. 102 people have been reported dead, and rising, 600 plus injured, and rising. This is a massacre, and has to stop.

 

[Scouse]

This is a massacre, and has to stop.

Yes.

 

[throdgrain]

They just have to stop firing rockets into Israel and it stops as far as I understood it. I saw a Palistinian feller on the telly this morning, when at the end of the interview he was asked why dont you just stop, his answer was, well, why dont THEY just stop? All very well, but when you consider the incredibly overwhelming power of Israel, and their willingness to use it, it's not stopping that is killing the people, just as much as the missiles themselves.

 

[Raven]

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/...nt-result-from-doing-same-thing-2012111949611

 

[TdC]

It's their home and central to their culture - I dont find it that hard to understand?

*cough*Inuit, American Indians, Native Australians, uncounted South American natives, and a shit ton of other people*cough*

Also, if you look at the map of Africa and notice all the countries with straight borders? Those countries were made, not by growing into the state they are today but because idiots drew lines on maps after making agreements in their own best interests. I quite doubt the indigenous populations were consulted when their homes and cultural centers were chopped up. Sorry Ryn, that one doesn't fly

 

[Scouse]

They just have to stop firing rockets into Israel and it stops as far as I understood it.

Doesn't work like that tho throddy.

If you've got a number of independent cells, for arguments sake lets say ten.

Say these ten groups get begged to stop by the leadership - and it's a loose leadership, not some iron fist with top-down military control - and nine of them stop, but one of them doesn't because it's a jihadist-heavy cell who've, say, lost 9 of their family members in the last 12 months and they lob a few mortars at Israel. Most of them miss, most don't even leave gaza and they even manage to fire one backwards, but one of them lands on a piece of waste ground in Israeli territory.

The Israeli government quickly goes "full steam ahead - air strikes, white phosphorous, flechette rounds, unmanned drones"...

 

[Scouse]

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/...nt-result-from-doing-same-thing-2012111949611

Whilst funny, it perpetuates the lie that the air strikes are "retaliatory" because of the rocket attacks and doesn't remotely paint the picture that the palestinians are effectively in a massive concentration camp with all their ins-and-outs controlled by agressive germans, sorry israelis - only that it's worse than that as families are having to live there not for just the duration of "the war".

 

[mr.Blacky]

Not as simple as you, obviously. It's a report of a fact-finding mission and reports on both sides. By it's nature it reports verifiable facts.

Did you even look at it? No. You didn't did you.

Biased?

So reports from both sides? really? read the thing, please do and not just the parts you like.
Just to help you page 15 point 20, also page 13 point 9.
As for taking sides I am actually not, I believe both sides are wrong, I do not pick sides in discussing who is more wrong, I actually liked the idea of Mbingimbungoland, the world did the same in Bosnia.
But to claim one side is innocent and one is not, just cause of the amount of deaths?

Zenith yes it has to stop but also it will not, neither side will give up.
As for bias in the report: check page 104 and down.
I do not think there can be an unbiased report in this case. If one side gives permission the other side won't.

 

[Raven]

Nice big wall round the whole region, fill it with water. Sorted.

 

[rynnor]

Yes.

Lack of perspective tbh - you clearly dont know what a massacre is - in this context it would be using their full military force against civilians which they arent - if theres thousands dead I'd agree but so far the numbers reflect the targetted force.

How can you compare this to real massacres like those of the Serbs or the Syrian Govt?

 

[throdgrain]

Doesn't work like that tho throddy.

If you've got a number of independent cells, for arguments sake lets say ten.

Say these ten groups get begged to stop by the leadership - and it's a loose leadership, not some iron fist with top-down military control - and nine of them stop, but one of them doesn't because it's a jihadist-heavy cell who've, say, lost 9 of their family members in the last 12 months and they lob a few mortars at Israel. Most of them miss, most don't even leave gaza and they even manage to fire one backwards, but one of them lands on a piece of waste ground in Israeli territory.

The Israeli government quickly goes "full steam ahead - air strikes, white phosphorous, flechette rounds, unmanned drones"...

In the real world mate, it does work exactly like that though.

 

[Zenith]

First of all, despite all rules of discussion and being polite, you are fucking idiots.

Lets see for a while, why would terrorist groups in the Gaza strip shoot rockets into Israel? I dont have any links at hand at the moment as I'm not home, but could it be due to Israel actively stopping much needed aid from recognized NGOs around the world, WITH MILITARY PERSONELL. Could it be due to actively populate parts outside the Israeli border (not only done around the border to Palestine, but to Lebanon, which is still going on) by forcefully remove arabs.

It has been said, by the UN and NGOs over the world that the state of Gaza is humanely critical. Yet the Israeli is stopping ships with aid time and time again.

Shooting rockets over the border to Israel is borderline suicidal. Of course its stupid. I wish they would stop, as would any remotely logical individual. It's illegal and it have killed Israeli civilians. It got to stop.

However, it's so fucking clear that the force used by the Israeli is (and I dont like to use the word dispropriate, as I think ass force is disapropriate) disapropriate. For fuck sakes, they have already killed more than 100 people, 600 injured. This will only go up as they keep increase their efforts. They are actively choosing civilian targets, such as a Media center and other civilian infrastructure. They themselves have stated this.

One of their cabinet member have gone out and say they will bomb Gaza back to the middle ages.

How long can we sit and discuss "which sides we are on?" It's fucking insane.

And Rynnor, how dare you belittle the death of any citizen?

 

[Scouse]

you clearly dont know what a massacre is

A massacre is a one-sided conflict where one of the sides has overwhelming power compared to the other.

It's not based on the number of deaths. But I'd still say 720 wounded, 100 killed -versus- 3 dead certainly fits the billing...

In the real world mate, it does work exactly like that though.

That's why I wrote it m8?

 

[Zenith]

I think what I'm trying to say, we need to rise above any kind of "sides" in matters such as this. There is human lives being lost every day, both Israeli and to a higher degree, Arab. I dont see how we have the luxory of being "Pro-Israeli" or "Pro-Arab" when there is fullblown military operations on the go, and lives at stake. While I do understand the cultural background in the conflict, the rest of the world need to call for a COMPLETE stop of the conflict and rise above the mentality of a six year old.

 

[rynnor]

Ranting

Sadly you come accross like a typical Hamas mouthbreather - once all is emotion objectivity is lost - clearly you have nothing to discuss having chosen a side and blinded yourself to all that contradicts it.

 

[rynnor]

A massacre is a one-sided conflict where one of the sides has overwhelming power compared to the other.

It's not based on the number of deaths. But I'd still say 720 wounded, 100 killed -versus- 3 dead certainly fits the billing...

Thats just asymmetric warfare - a massacre is where you round up all the civilians and ahnillate them - like in Yugoslavia.

 

[rynnor]

the rest of the world need to call for a COMPLETE stop of the conflict and rise above the mentality of a six year old.

I am a little staggered at the naivety of this - you think the rest of the world can sort this out when the two sides havent managed it in 60+ years because?

And despite dozens of recent examples you still think the international community will do anything more than mutter a bit?