The Matrix (AGAIN) Spoiler city.

[stu]

The First Law of Thermodynamics - Energy is Conserved.

Or, to put it another way, the total energy of a system plus its surroundings is a constant. You cannot create or destroy Energy - you can merely alter its form through Work.

The argument that the First Law of Thermodynamics is only based on what we currently know is a straw man. As is the argument that maybe the machines have found a way round it.

Conservation of Energy is the basis of all physics - if the machines how found a way to break the most basic law of physics, they have ipso facto found a way to create 'something out of nothing' - and therefore would have no need to use humans in such an elaborate manner to generate energy.

 

[PR.]

Originally posted by stu
The First Law of Thermodynamics - Energy is Conserved.

Or, to put it another way, the total energy of a system plus its surroundings is a constant. You cannot create or destroy Energy - you can merely alter its form through Work.

The argument that the First Law of Thermodynamics is only based on what we currently know is a straw man. As is the argument that maybe the machines have found a way round it.

Conservation of Energy is the basis of all physics - if the machines how found a way to break the most basic law of physics, they have ipso facto found a way to create 'something out of nothing' - and therefore would have no need to use humans in such an elaborate manner to generate energy.

I was never really implying the idea that the machines were making energy.

Its more my own personal thing that I find it difficult to believe that on our extremely limited knowledge of the universe that we can flat out say "You can't create or destroy energy" based on the fact that nothing we have encountered has created or destroyed energy.

Its similar to the Quantum computer story on the BBC recently saying about Quantum entanglement allowed two molecules to react from each other no matter how close or far they are together, now no one can explain why it happens in actual fact science says it shouldn't happen but it does... (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3043731.stm)

Anyway thats enough of my babbling

 

[Durzel]

Surely if enough of the humans were dying (from old age?) and being liquified to feed intravenously to the living then that would be the food source? All you'd need is some kind of food source to get the first batch to adulthood (and eventual death), then the system would feed itself surely?

(if you had enough "crops")

 

[(Shovel)]

No, cause that relies on there being one dead one for every living, and we are assuming that since the energy output of the living is being trimmed off for the machines, raising a baby to adulthood would require more than one dead guy, so, as has been said, you would run out.

If all the energy from one living person was stored up and then all of it given (somehow) to the next living one, then yeah, you would have a working lifecycle. But that isn't what the machines are doing... or at least, not to our knowledge.

Without an extra source of enegy that the humans are converting for the machines, then it is a fundamental plot hole that means we can all sleep at night.

 

[Wij]

Originally posted by Durzel
Surely if enough of the humans were dying (from old age?) and being liquified to feed intravenously to the living then that would be the food source? All you'd need is some kind of food source to get the first batch to adulthood (and eventual death), then the system would feed itself surely?

(if you had enough "crops")

OMG - NO NO NO FFS !!!1

For this to work as a self-sustaining system then the body of one person would have to be enough to feed another for its whole lifetime. Think about it.

If you could find a process by which you could create more energy from less energy then you would have a perpetual motion machine.

The US patent office (not sure about ours) will not allow a patent of anything which could be used as a perpetual motion machine because it's obvious it doesn't really work without them even looking at it.

/edit: fs shovel. beat me to it

 

[Xtro]

And to think Wij you posted on the SWG forum to take the piss...



:doh:

 

[Wij]

You've missed the point entirely X

 

[old.I_Am_Glen]

always does

 

[Xtro]

This bell end who hides behind a fake account when you don't even know the twat anyway is on your Ignore List. To view this post click [here].

 

[leggy]

THYE NEED TEH HOOMAN MINDS !!!! FFS

 

[old.I_Am_Glen]

soz to hit a nerve, noobler )

 

[PR.]

Originally posted by (Shovel)
No, cause that relies on there being one dead one for every living, and we are assuming that since the energy output of the living is being trimmed off for the machines, raising a baby to adulthood would require more than one dead guy, so, as has been said, you would run out.

I didn't realise the matrix pods had nutritional information on how many humans should be fed to another human intravenously per day.

Once again when the body dies they extract the electricity from it and the body, its meat/muscle/brain/organs/bone marrow are all then liquefied and injected into the tube that a baby resides in the tube is also filled up with gook that can also support the body. This is all stuff thats useless and redundant to the robots but is critical to the life of a human

This is also based on the premise that when Neo was woken up what he saw was the reality which it seems is now not the case

 

[stu]

OK let me break this down for you PR, as you're still fundamentally misunderstanding the point.

Let's say we start with 100 humans. Let's say they're all "grown" at the same time. We'll call them "Generation A". Let's say each generation of humans lasts exactly 50 years. It's a gross oversimplification, but serves the purpose of the example.

OK, so we have 100 members of Generation A. Eventually Generation A dies. The bodies of Generation A are broken down, and fed to Generation B.

Now, what do you think happens if it requires *more* than 1 single member of Generation A to keep 1 single member of Generation B going for its entire life?

I'll help you out.

Each subsequent generation is smaller than the last!

Now let's go back to the first law of thermodynamics. Humans use energy to exist. Hence the "feeding the dead to the living" concept. So let's assume that 1 member of Generation A provides sufficient energy in "liquidised form" to provide sustenance to 1 member of Generation B for its lifetime (as the alternative is clearly a non-starter).

1 member of Generation A in "liquid form" provides, let's say, 100 units of energy. It doesn't matter what those units are, again it's purely for illustration. Human A1 is fed to human B1, releasing 100 units of energy.

Human B1 will, eventually, have to be broken down and fed to human C1. And he will need to provide 100 units of energy in order for Human C1 to survive. So assuming a 100% conversion ratio (which is physically impossible, but the best possible result for your theory):

100-100 = 0.

where the hell is the surplus energy for the machines?

And that's not even taking into account the energy used by each successive human whilst surviving.

 

[Nos-]

Don't bother with him, it's like trying to explain Dinosaurs to a fundamentalist Christian.

 

[natrat]

you're assuming the only source of food for future generations is other humans. afaik nowhere is this stated. I'm sure there are a wide range of synthetically produced protein foods the machines also harvest grown from what live cultures exist with minimal sunlight, for example, sub aqua and subterranean creatures/funghi/organisms. Humans are simply used as well as they're there.

I can't believe i'm even posting in this thread. I must be mad.

 

[nath]

With no sunlight, things would slowly but surely draw to a close.

What little sunlight there was (if any) would be wasted on growing basic organisms, feeding them to humans, then getting electricity. It'd be more efficient just to take the sunlight directly.

 

[(Shovel)]

OK, I'm just back from seeing it again and I've got reasonable amount of "new" stuff to take seriously and theorise about. People will read this and call us nerds, but God is it fun.

First off: An Easter Egg. When the Architect is talking to Neo about basing the new Matrix around the "grotesque history of your species", and shows the various images in the screens, George Bush Jnr, and I think Snr as well, both appear. I liked that

Next up, also with the Architect, and this proves beyond any more discussion that Zion is not real. The images of Thomas Anderson's life in the background, many of them are scenes from the first film, climbing out of his software companies office block for instance, fighting agents. But also, there are scenes from outside the Matrix: Waking up on the Nebacaneza (sp?) is there, as are scenes from Neo's training in the Construct. It also, frankly, explains why when you are moved from the Matrix into Zion, there is a friendly machine on hand to "disconnect" you.

OK, none of that is really new. Now, the Oracle. She offers Neo a sweet, he acepts, though we don't see him eat it. The Oracle eats her's - for the eagle eyed, it's a red pill. Either this is another Easter Egg, or it's sinister. For a laugh, lets take it seriously.
Red pills are trace programs - Morpheus explained this after Neo accepted it in the first film. So, the Oracle takes a red pill, running a trace program. She is then warned to leave by her minder (I forget his name), and Smith appears. Are the two linked?

Also, although I accept that Keanu Reeves acting history is patchy, I payed some attention to moment he passed out at the end. When - earlier - the third ship is bombed and the team inside the power station back up place "faint" when they die, it is very much like fainting. When Neo passes out at the end, he did so in the same way, a kind of "pause... slump".

So there, some more to disect... three months really is too long for the next one.

 

[bodhi]

Films != Real life.


So why are you arguing about whether concepts introduced in a Science Fiction film are plausible in the real world or not?

Because if this is the case I would like to point out an issue with the Empire Strikes Back. There is no way a cripple like Yoda could lift an Xwing by waving his hand at it. I tried waving my hand at a bottle of beer but I still had to move to go and get it. So if I can't do that with a simple bottle of Budweiser I fail to see how Yoda could do it with an Xwing.

 

[leggy]

Originally posted by bodhi
I tried waving my hand at a bottle of beer but I still had to move to go and get it

 

[nath]

Originally posted by bodhi
Films != Real life.


So why are you arguing about whether concepts introduced in a Science Fiction film are plausible in the real world or not?

Because if this is the case I would like to point out an issue with the Empire Strikes Back. There is no way a cripple like Yoda could lift an Xwing by waving his hand at it. I tried waving my hand at a bottle of beer but I still had to move to go and get it. So if I can't do that with a simple bottle of Budweiser I fail to see how Yoda could do it with an Xwing.

Well, Star Wars is really Science Fantasy.

Actually, it's just Fantasy, there's no science there.
Certain films don't cling to science and don't pretend to be anything they're not, that's ok.. you can ignore the things that would never happen and carry on enjoying the film.

The Matrix is Science Fiction, the fiction being that the events haven't happened, not that they couldn't. When it tries to explain these events to you, it's saying "it could happen! you could be in the matrix right know etc.", when it presents you with such an obvious flaw in its logic, the suspension of disbelief takes a knock. Not the end of the world, but it is pretty dense, they could have thought of something better.

 

[Durzel]

Originally posted by (Shovel)
Next up, also with the Architect, and this proves beyond any more discussion that Zion is not real. The images of Thomas Anderson's life in the background, many of them are scenes from the first film, climbing out of his software companies office block for instance, fighting agents. But also, there are scenes from outside the Matrix: Waking up on the Nebacaneza (sp?) is there, as are scenes from Neo's training in the Construct. It also, frankly, explains why when you are moved from the Matrix into Zion, there is a friendly machine on hand to "disconnect" you.

OK, none of that is really new. Now, the Oracle. She offers Neo a sweet, he acepts, though we don't see him eat it. The Oracle eats her's - for the eagle eyed, it's a red pill. Either this is another Easter Egg, or it's sinister. For a laugh, lets take it seriously.
Red pills are trace programs - Morpheus explained this after Neo accepted it in the first film. So, the Oracle takes a red pill, running a trace program. She is then warned to leave by her minder (I forget his name), and Smith appears. Are the two linked?

Jeez.. I didn't notice either of those two. I clearly remember seeing the Oracle eat the red pill, but I didn't pay any attention to it at all. Nor did I pay much heed to seeing the non-Matrix vidcaps of Neo on the screens.

Scary

 

[nath]

Hmm. Well, I was going to say perhaps they were all from Neo's mind, but they were in the third person perspective, so that doesn't work.

So either it'll be relevant, i.e. Zion=another matrix, or it won't be, in which case it was just because they had the dvd of the original matrix to hand so just plonked it in there with the other screens.

I read somewhere (very possibly here, very possibly a few posts up) that The WB's have said that there will be no matrix in a matrix, but that could be a red herring. Who knows.

Oh and shovel, I did notice the bush snr/jnr images on the tv's, mainly because I read about it before I saw the film. Surprises me that they had the balls to do something like that.

Having said that, the entire film is about the way the government controls us and makes us think what they want us to think, but I imagine that'll be lost on most yanks.

 

[leggy]

I noticed it shovel and thought the same thing.

I just didn't know the significance of Neo not eating it.

 

[nath]

Seraph was very edgy too..

 

[(Shovel)]

I think the underlying proof, that even with some dubious advances in science, the reason we are not in the Matrix right now is because we've made a film about it...

In fact: The whole "Destroy Zion" thing is nothing to do with cleaning up an overgrowing population, but in the film time (Reloaded is 6 months after Matrix 2) they were probably just about to release the film...: Although the Machines don't seem to be perfect at this whole "enslavery" thing, I'm pretty sure they'd do thier best to stop us making a film about what's really going on.

Although... didn't Aaylia die while she was filming on Reloaded?

IT leaves the door open for a series of prequels in 30 years though: The Wachoski brothers on the run from a mob of agents trying to stop them releasing the film...

 

[(Shovel)]

Originally posted by nath
Seraph was very edgy too..

Yes, though he was very clearly supposed to be an "edgy" character, he's in the trailor for Revelations so maybe some more is revealed about him then.

 

[nath]

I don't mean literally *that* matrix, but it makes you question reality, and our understanding of it.

And I meant edgy at that particular moment. He knew something was coming.

 

[Durzel]

Originally posted by (Shovel)
I think the underlying proof, that even with some dubious advances in science, the reason we are not in the Matrix right now is because we've made a film about it...

In fact: The whole "Destroy Zion" thing is nothing to do with cleaning up an overgrowing population, but in the film time (Reloaded is 6 months after Matrix 2) they were probably just about to release the film...: Although the Machines don't seem to be perfect at this whole "enslavery" thing, I'm pretty sure they'd do thier best to stop us making a film about what's really going on.

Although... didn't Aaylia die while she was filming on Reloaded?

IT leaves the door open for a series of prequels in 30 years though: The Wachoski brothers on the run from a mob of agents trying to stop them releasing the film...

Now you've lost the plot I think. How the mighty have fallen!

 

[(Shovel)]

Oh the shame.... I think I tripped on a rabbit hole or something...

 

[(Shovel)]

Originally posted by nath
I don't mean literally *that* matrix, but it makes you question reality, and our understanding of it.

Yeah, I know

Originally posted by nath
And I meant edgy at that particular moment. He knew something was coming.

Ahhh OK. I guess that makes some sense though, in that he seems to be an immensely powerful program, since he has access to the backdoors, therefore being able to sense fluctuations in the Matrix, or however else you go about seeing people coming, is not unreasonable. It's a shame really, cause he's an interesting character that we can't discuss cause they've not told us anything about him. I'll be annoyed if, in the next film, he turns out to be a "bit part" all along.

Was there anything signifcant to his code being gold (rather than green) when Neo walked into the japanese hut at the start of those scenes? Every other computer program we've seen like that has been green like the rest of it, namely agents.