Strong whine - RvR no fun for the casual player

[Gordonax]

well nol i cant really say its fair if people put a lot more time/effort into the mmorpg, which is character development for the most part, only to get to be put on the same effective level as you if you play 2h a day? its nonsensical.

Tzee, it isn't *effort* they put in, it's *time*. How long does it take in hours to do ML's 1-10 and level even one artifact? Not even thinking about the time spent either camping an artifact spot in the hope of it popping, or alternatively raising the cash to buy one and completing the encounter (and farming the scrolls). I play for a total of at most three or four 4 hour sessions per week, and often less. How long would it take me to put myself on the same level as NP are on at the moment, *just* in terms of items and ML's? Which leads me on to...

but i dont believe talking about nolby is fair, they are by far the best guild on the server, possibly the best i've ever seen in terms of efficiency/organisation.. saying that you cant compete with them, well i think 95% of the server cant compete with them.

I couldn't agree with you more. NP are by and large excellent players, *and* would be so even if they had no MLs and no RRs. Even if they were in epics, they would probably beat 80% of the server in an even-numbers fight. Which, of course, makes the roomcamping "powerleveling" their SM's RR's they've done recently even more laughable. That act, once again, exposes the fact that they don't really want an even fight - they want a fight where the odds are stacked in their favour.

(Now I don't think there's anything wrong with that, but it's no different from ensuring the odds are stacked in your favour by heavily outnumbering your opponents - and how many times have we heard people whine about that? Some call it "zerging", apparently...)

but there IS an astounding amount of 'casual' players out there in rvr too, running FG's, or zergs, it's not all full of uber xiit haxx0r no life swedes living on welfare tbh.

No, you're right: but at the moment, it's the "uber xiit haxx0r no life swedes living on welfare" (and Brits, and Irish, and Spaniards) who have all the advantages, and, because ToA is a massive time sink, that isn't going to go away for a long time.

 

[rvn]

I think this is something that pisses the casual players off most. The PvP Guilds say they want a fair fight, but the reality is that they want the rps. If Emain doesn't contain easy rps, and only hard fights, they will move. If you try to have fun with a non-optimal group somewhere, fighting similar groups sooner or later the kiddies will show up. They don't like dieing to similar groups so they follow the rps.

They only come up with the we want fair fights bullshit when some groups get together and zerg the shit out of them.

i prefer fair fights over unfair fights, but i dont want to gimp my group just to have fair fights with gimps, i prefer to make the most performance out in everything i do, including daoc.

 

[Gordonax]

I didn't.

Yes you did. It was YOU personally, all on your own, using some kind of ubber leet stealthwallspeedhack. I saw it all with my own eyes. Or someone told me about it in #celticfist. Probably that shady VodkaFairy character.

 

[Bullitt]

A casual player does not log on at a specific time and joins up with his buddies to do pre-arranged stuff. A casual player is often in a small guild with his friends, or in a large PvE guild. He does not arrange events and meetings on beforehand using IRC; in fact, he would be hard-pressed to say he ever used IRC. He does not have a fixed spot in an RvR group, and when he does RvR, he either does it in a random pickup group, or with his guildies/friends, and in both cases they most likely lack vital classes. He does not have a buffbot. He hasn't spent loads of time poring over game documentation and ToA tips, nor does he troll the forums a lot. In fact, he does not have the time to do these things. He is most likely stuck on ML3, simply due to the fact he always have to log early when the raid gets to the later encounters. He does not have 10+ plats, and most of the items he wants are beyond his reach. He does have the "easy" artifacts you can do solo or with a few friends, but when he turns up at the site of a desirable artifact, it is always camped. The one time he spent some of his rare in-game time camping an artifact mob, he was not able to get an FG together in time, and so someone else steamed in and took his artifact from under his nose. He zergs. He likes the thrill of RvR, and thinks his epic is the coolest-looking armor in-game. And yes, let's face it, he is all of you in a few years.

Hehe my god it's like you've watched me play or something. This is me 100%, this is through personal choice however as my uni commitments mean a hell of alot more to me than any game. Once this year is over though i plan to return and actually get some stuff, START the ML's get some sc, some rp's etc etc.

2 years playing and 1 level 50 and next highest of 39. Seems all i do is roll bg alts and occasionally totter around with my 50 to get some cash/level some artifacts if i do decide to play.

I'd love to RvR and compete successfully however the lack of the above puts me off and i don't even try anymore. As a scout i'm rarely grouped and at RR3 ML0 undesirable anyway. Maybe this will change in the future when i have more free time/ less work deadlines....i hope it does.

 

[Gordonax]

hehehe, you're scaring me geezer

Come on! A little gene splicing won't hurt! What's up with you?????

 

[Gordonax]

At the same time, while mids had no relics, Hibernia owned every single Middy keep at one point. Mids rarely defended and all but dissappeared.

Wasn't that us? Or did your mob do it as well?

 

[yaruar]

Yes you did. It was YOU personally, all on your own, using some kind of ubber leet stealthwallspeedhack. I saw it all with my own eyes. Or someone told me about it in #celticfist. Probably that shady VodkaFairy character.

Shhhhhh, it's supposed to be a secret that I payed for all those RR9 and 10 characters on ebay with daddies money and get the illegal immigrant slav...STAFF to play them with me so I can wtfpwn with my skinny 12 year old ass.

And it't totally untrue that I bribed Kemor with 12 crates of vodka to give me the relics and send ghosts of all the sleeping mid players across the alb frontier.

 

[Skilgannon]

Even when albs had the relics they rarely defended the outlying keeps to the extent that the mids do

Did you even play the game then, cause you can't have done if you believe that.

When Mids lose the relics they also lose half their playerbase. During the time Midgard was without relics RvR was primarily Alb vs Hib with a few half-hearted Mid groups about. Mid uber Guilds slink off to another server, Mid stealthers sit at Gna crying rivers at the loss of their precious 20% and the hinges on the gates to the ones mighty Svasud rust solid.

I remember sitting in Bled waiting for the retake force. Nada.

Moved to Nottmoor. Nothing.

Moved to Blend. Nothing.

A group of brave Mids, trembling at the prospect of going out into the Frontier without their 20% eventually retook at 0700.

Mids have incredibly short memories.

 

[Gordonax]

Shhhhhh, it's supposed to be a secret that I payed for all those RR9 and 10 characters on ebay with daddies money and get the illegal immigrant slav...STAFF to play them with me so I can wtfpwn with my skinny 12 year old ass.

And it't totally untrue that I bribed Kemor with 12 crates of vodka to give me the relics and send ghosts of all the sleeping mid players across the alb frontier.

I KNEW IT!!!!!!

 

[rvn]

Which, of course, makes the roomcamping "powerleveling" their SM's RR's they've done recently even more laughable. That act, once again, exposes the fact that they don't really want an even fight - they want a fight where the odds are stacked in their favour.

most of our room camping we did, was with VERY gimped groups, like 2rms, 1 sm, a buffbot and a healer (4 ppl, 1 afk/semi played), ok now this could be a fair fight vs a random alb group i suppose.

alltho vs 4fgs albs its not very easy to do this at open field, and i would not call it the odds for the rm grp over the alb zerg

i dont know about the rest of the guild, but i have never camped anywhere because of 1fg enemy. But when there is 2x - 3x amount and you dont have enough support, and you know the chances are 1% to survive it, its basicly just as stupid to stop breathing irl

do you really think its that "easy" for us to beat the zerg? (if we wanted it easy vs 4 - 5fgs + we would just bring 2fgs and steamroll, however we dont )

 

[yaruar]

Did you even play the game then, cause you can't have done if you believe that.

I played from the very first day of release and apart from a period of about 4 months where I took a break for personal reasons I've played constantly.

All the time I've been playing mids have been interested in DF for farming money, even when we had no relics there would be constant organising on the alliance chats for keep taking for DF. And not just take a keep, get df then suicide to df asap only to lose it 10 minutes later, but actually taking multiple keeps.

That's why there is stupid amounts of money knocking round in mid these days.

 

[Dreami]

Oh and btw...I saw a fg NP or a fgh pwn 20+ albs tonight several times...so dont start posting your 'albs' zerg whines here cos atm 1fg of high RR/ML/Artifact players >>>>> 3fg normal players

Not like it wasn't like that before TOA

 

[vintervargen]

here you can see some hypocrits.

many of the hardcore daoc'ers dislike the albzerg, or brehon hibzerg, or the mid vaktenzerg, but still wouldnt want a place where only high RRs would fight eachother (or high MLs for that matter).

these people have a few reasons for this, as far as i can figure out.

1. they want to be able to 'farm' the low rr people, to earn RPs. either to get bigger e-peen, or just because they want their character to get better.

2. the high RR area would be less populated (of course), and hence less action

3. they want to be able to have a challenge, aka. 1fg vs 2+

but,

the same thing low RR people (and others) bring up when they are 'defending' their zerging, is that this is a Realm vs Realm game after all. and the high RR ppl that own these 2-3FGs over and over, could now say the same thing.

 

[Gordonax]

do you really think its that "easy" for us to beat the zerg? (if we wanted it easy vs 4 - 5fgs + we would just bring 2fgs and steamroll, however we dont )

I've seen you beat the crap out of 2-3fgs because of good play, not overpowered artifacts and MLs. I never said it was easy: but I don't understand why you rush to make it not just easy, but trivial.

 

[Bracken]

Have you ever given it a try?

Ive had much fun in thoose zones in smaller groups and solo, so why shouldnt other ppl be able to?

Many times.

I just loved the way you said all low rr people should basically bugger off to hw so all the l33t d00ds can be left with emain...

 

[[NO]Subedai]

tbh its embaressing for 2fg+ to lose to 1fg whatever really.
i mean comeon...
4 chain ggrablles on their grp and theyve lost...get some communication, maybe np pwn zerg so much is cuz a cabby is gonna aoe dot them all for maxium rpt leech while clerics smite etc..

 

[stubbe]

tbh its embaressing for 2fg+ to lose to 1fg whatever really.
i mean comeon...
4 chain ggrablles on their grp and theyve lost...get some communication, maybe np pwn zerg so much is cuz a cabby is gonna aoe dot them all for maxium rpt leech while clerics smite etc..

Wait a second here, so you're saying that we can beat 3fg zerglings because they lack coordination and teamplay? I would've never guessed.

 

[Bracken]

You misunderstand tzee, I don't despair my lot. My point is to make do as best you can. If that means you have zerg to have some fun, then by all means do it. I don't think casual gamers like me should have the same rewards as people who invest so much time and effort into the game, but by the same token, because you expend all that effort into this game, don't expect me to be your rp cow. If it means I have to zerg to beat you, I will.

Exactly.

 

[[NO]Subedai]

Wait a second here, so you're saying that we can beat 3fg zerglings because they lack coordination and teamplay? I would've never guessed.

strong sarcasmn, but i seen it, they just go for rpts so means no grappling, no cc,no heals etc.

 

[stubbe]

Which, of course, makes the roomcamping "powerleveling" their SM's RR's they've done recently even more laughable. That act, once again, exposes the fact that they don't really want an even fight - they want a fight where the odds are stacked in their favour.

I think you misunderstood me when I said this. We very rarely camp room when we're running as a good fullgroup. We _never_ camp room "for the hell of it" like preparing to storm room when running to amg. It's just that you can't beat 4 caster-heavy fullgroups when terrain (and milegates) are in their favor.

The only time we ever camp room with a proper FG is when there is nothing in emain except those 4-5 FG albs at amg, which we can't beat by just rushing in. I don't see the harm in using terrain and buildings to your advantage when you're facing a force 4-5 times as big as your own, just like there's no harm in rallying up a huge force when you're facing a force x times as well coordinated/equipped/high RR as yours.

 

[Asha]

you all are funny

the "casual" player got totally owned before toa by any kind of rvr group at all - doesn't matter what realms

the casual player isn't what makes the daoc world go round. It's the player that logs in every day just about. The problem that I think will happen is that these kind of players will be leaving - doesn't matter if it's more than were leaving before toa or not. I think it is more tho... The problem comes in that it's very very difficult for a totally new player to come into daoc after toa and have a good experiance. Even if you have friends, I would think that getting 1-50 and then doing toa and then doing sc and artifacts and then doing some rvr where you get owned 90% of the time because of lack of RAs and more important, lack of decent groups is going to be so difficult that I don't see much fresh blood coming into the game beyond the casual player level.

So you have old players leaving and you won't have new players coming in because the effort involved to participate in good rvr is too high. Nol, you can say - well we'll just zerg the fuckers... but honestly that doesn't cut it.

 

[Clipse]

Lets just get one thing established :

I LOVE BREHON ZERG

 

[crispy]

Many times.

I just loved the way you said all low rr people should basically bugger off to hw so all the l33t d00ds can be left with emain...

You can look at it that way if you want. I simply suggested that splitting up players after skill is a good idea. wich was suggested in the opening post too:

Coulld it be a solution to make RvR areas you cant enter if you are RR5+ or ML5+....so the n00bs like me are protected against insanly strong and balanced RR10 ML10 lvl 10 artifacts groups?

I simply hate when ppl whine about getting owned in emain instead of trying something new

ofc im aware that all can go gank in odins and hadrians but im pretty sure that if thoose 2 zones were used for rvr reguarly the chance of getting wtfpwnd by some dedicated players will also be smaller. Not because of lesser encounters, but because i think the dedicated players seek out challenges and therefore prolly also will rvr in the same zone.

 

[Gordonax]

you all are funny

You only just noticed?

the "casual" player got totally owned before toa by any kind of rvr group at all - doesn't matter what realms

Yes, this is true if they didn't make a balanced group and have a reasonable pool of RAs. If you did have, you had a chance - I've been in groups of casual players, but well balanced, that have won against NP etc (and usually found ourselves going "how the heck did THAT happen?" afterwards )

Now, though, the gap just suddenly got MUCH wider. And even a good group of relatively skilled players will have their arses handed to them on a plate by all and sundry ML10 8-artifact wielding gonad-busters, no matter what they do. So they have a choice: forget about RvR, or spend the next six months of their DAoC playing time in ToA, getting bored titless levelling artifacts.

the casual player isn't what makes the daoc world go round. It's the player that logs in every day just about.

Sorry Asha, but you're simply wrong about this . If Mythic and Goa had to rely on those kinds of player alone, they would have both closed years ago - as would virtually any online game with a monthly fee. Yes, I can see why FOR YOU they're what matters, because they are the biggest challenge in the game FOR YOU. But for most players, they're about as realistic an opponent as doing the dragon solo: best avoided, rather than confronted. And when they're rampaging around Emain killing 5fgs at a time, they're pretty hard to avoid (and as many have said, if you move somewhere else they're just going to follow you).

 

[Bracken]

the "casual" player got totally owned before toa by any kind of rvr group at all - doesn't matter what realms. the casual player isn't what makes the daoc world go round. It's the player that logs in every day just about. .

Depends on your definition. In my book, casual players can and do log in every day...its just that they are usually limited to 3 hours or less . That time, which used to be just about enough to still have a chance if those players were in a balanced group and played well, will no longer be anything like enough now to survive as 1fg against the powergamers. And casual players make up probably 80% of the population so it is that kind of revenue the game can't afford to lose - the time they play per day is actually far less relevant as the game continues as long as they are still paying their subs.

The problem comes in that it's very very difficult for a totally new player to come into daoc after toa and have a good experiance. .

True.

Nol, you can say - well we'll just zerg the fuckers... but honestly that doesn't cut it.

If that's the only way the casual players can realistically survive in and enjoy rvr ,and therefore stay in the game, then he is absolutely right. Of course it won't help those who only enjoy the game if they are matching the powergamers as 1fg - because these days they won't.

 

[Bracken]

i think the dedicated players seek out challenges and therefore prolly also will rvr in the same zone.

They can now..but they don't. Ever wondered why?

Some dedicated players seek the challenge..and consistently roam Odins looking for it. But many who claim they seek the challenge actually only want rps. And that's why they whine when they get zerged in emain.

 

[Asha]

Grats, you managed to totally misunderstand me. I was not talking about from GOA/Mythic pov. I was talking about RvR/economy-wise. The casual player logging in for 2 hours twice a week has little impact on the DAoC world. A player logging in for 4 hours a day 5 days a week - not hardcore imo, has a huge effect. To Mythic their money is the same, so they are the same. To the community the more active player is more important. If you lose that player it doesn't matter if you gain 20 casual players, the community doesn't get back what they lost. They don't get back that lgm crafter or that great mind sorc or that person who led massive raids or the person who held together a guild. It's natural for people to leave the game, but I dont' think the game can attract new players with such a huge learning curve and time sink.

I just think that it's simple: players leaving >>> new players

And I'm sorry, but the number of times that NP lost to a random group of casual Alb players could probably be counted on one hand.

 

[Asha]

Depends on your definition. In my book, casual players can and do log in every day...its just that they are usually limited to 3 hours or less .

by that definition I was a casual player lol - not a bad thing to be called but I wouldnt' call myself that.
casual player to me is someone who doesn't play every day, or even most days.

If that's the only way the casual players can realistically survive in and enjoy rvr ,and therefore stay in the game, then he is absolutely right. Of course it won't help those who only enjoy the game if they are matching the powergamers as 1fg - because these days they won't.

Day-In Day-Out people cannot enjoy zerging 3 4 or 5x the numbers....
Just from the sheer lack of interaction of I hit one savage once before everything was dead. Or as a cleric, I did one spread heal before they were all dead. Or as far as the rewards go, getting 8 rp everytime you manage to outnumber Nolby. It cannot be enjoyable. Better to spend that time getting getting a suntan.

Mythic are trying to keep the game alive, but they are just making it too complicated - imo

 

[Kagato]

Forget the suntan, stay !

far to many good albs leaving

 

[Gorrion]

A casual player does not log on at a specific time and joins up with his buddies to do pre-arranged stuff. A casual player is often in a small guild with his friends, or in a large PvE guild. He does not arrange events and meetings on beforehand using IRC; in fact, he would be hard-pressed to say he ever used IRC. He does not have a fixed spot in an RvR group, and when he does RvR, he either does it in a random pickup group, or with his guildies/friends, and in both cases they most likely lack vital classes. He does not have a buffbot. He hasn't spent loads of time poring over game documentation and ToA tips, nor does he troll the forums a lot. In fact, he does not have the time to do these things. He is most likely stuck on ML3, simply due to the fact he always have to log early when the raid gets to the later encounters. He does not have 10+ plats, and most of the items he wants are beyond his reach. He does have the "easy" artifacts you can do solo or with a few friends, but when he turns up at the site of a desirable artifact, it is always camped. The one time he spent some of his rare in-game time camping an artifact mob, he was not able to get an FG together in time, and so someone else steamed in and took his artifact from under his nose. He zergs. He likes the thrill of RvR, and thinks his epic is the coolest-looking armor in-game. And yes, let's face it, he is all of you in a few years.

So very true and well spoken statement are very rare to find, agree 100%.
Regarding TOA, it has totally split the game up, placing the casual players almost totally out of RVR.