Strong whine - RvR no fun for the casual player

[Bracken]

casual player to me is someone who doesn't play every day, or even most days.

Ok then we are talking about different groups of players . I think many of the people who talk about "casual" players in the thread now mean those who play < 3 hours per day, even if that is every day. Simply because the gap between them and those who play for significantly more than that is now greater than ever - for all the reasons stated elsewhere. A fg of even reasonably organised players now will get wiped over and over by the powergamers - whereas in the past they would have had a chance with all RAs up and by playing well. And that difference is obviously unsustainable in the long run...as of course are the problems new players face.

 

[Gordonax]

A player logging in for 4 hours a day 5 days a week - not hardcore imo, has a huge effect.

Spending 20 hours a week playing a computer game isn't hardcore? That's half the amount of time I spend working for a living. Asha, 20 hours a week is *a lot* of time.

If you're spending that much time playing a game, you need a

To the community the more active player is more important. If you lose that player it doesn't matter if you gain 20 casual players, the community doesn't get back what they lost. They don't get back that lgm crafter or that great mind sorc or that person who led massive raids or the person who held together a guild. It's natural for people to leave the game, but I dont' think the game can attract new players with such a huge learning curve and time sink.

Yes, those kinds of people are required - but that doesn't equate to being having vast amounts of MLs and artifacts. I know people who are too busy being LGM crafters/person leading guilds to have done much ToA. There are plenty of time sinks in the game, but ToA makes most of them look piddling.

And I'm sorry, but the number of times that NP lost to a random group of casual Alb players could probably be counted on one hand.

Must have been there for a couple of those fingers then

(This is the point at which some barsteward points out that they were suiciding, thus destroying all my dreams of glory, isn't it?)

 

[Asha]

Spending 20 hours a week playing a computer game isn't hardcore? That's half the amount of time I spend working for a living. Asha, 20 hours a week is *a lot* of time.

It was fun for me. So yes, I spent 20+ hours a week playing DAoC for a long time. On top of working 40-50 hours a week, taking classes, etc. It wasn't stressful, I was having fun. After getting my sc'ing done I could spend 85% of that time in RvR. Almost every time I logged in I could get a group of good players, if not my guild then FC. I know alot of people who spend ALOT more time in daoc than that. I mean, day in and day out these people were in game every time I logged in. If not in game, then in IRC. 20 hours isn't hardcore, no
So what I call normal, Bracken called casual, and you think is someone in need of help lol.
I am not really sure what Gordonax is disagreeing with and *shock* Bracken seems to be saying the same thing I am but using different terms. Mythic are shooting themself in the foot with TOA.

 

[Gordonax]

I am not really sure what Gordonax is disagreeing with and *shock* Bracken seems to be saying the same thing I am but using different terms. Mythic are shooting themself in the foot with TOA.

I'm disagreeing with you because I always disagree with you

 

[Asha]

u must be wrong ALOT then!

disagreeing with me is pointless...
I am right !
:touch:

 

[Vasconcelos]

u must be wrong ALOT then!

disagreeing with me is pointless...
I am right !
:touch:

Go play your DarkElf slut ^^

:wub:

 

[Asha]

as if

it's an orc! dark elfs are men in drag!

and I am at work = bored (but still right)

 

[Vasconcelos]

as if

it's an orc! dark elfs are men in drag!

and I am at work = bored (but still right)

Any good??

Thinking about giving it a try with a d00rf

 

[Asha]

so far so good
not sure about dwarfs, but having one in groups increased the chance for mobs do drop items

 

[nol]

you all are funny

the "casual" player got totally owned before toa by any kind of rvr group at all - doesn't matter what realms

the casual player isn't what makes the daoc world go round. It's the player that logs in every day just about. The problem that I think will happen is that these kind of players will be leaving - doesn't matter if it's more than were leaving before toa or not. I think it is more tho... The problem comes in that it's very very difficult for a totally new player to come into daoc after toa and have a good experiance. Even if you have friends, I would think that getting 1-50 and then doing toa and then doing sc and artifacts and then doing some rvr where you get owned 90% of the time because of lack of RAs and more important, lack of decent groups is going to be so difficult that I don't see much fresh blood coming into the game beyond the casual player level.

So you have old players leaving and you won't have new players coming in because the effort involved to participate in good rvr is too high. Nol, you can say - well we'll just zerg the fuckers... but honestly that doesn't cut it.

I agree the casual player was totally owned before toa, in many cases a good rvr group could take down 2 fg's casual. After toa, if a good rvr group loses to 2fg's casual, then imo they are not a good rvr group. They should PASTE 2fg's without even breaking a sweat.

IMO the casual player is what makes daoc go around, but probably because my distinction between casual and power gamer is different to yours. I view a person who spend 2 hours at most a day in this game casual(which makes up at least 50% of the server). In 2 hours you can get very little done in this game, unless you have 7 dedicated mates who synchronise logins with you every night.

Without us noobs who gets farmed?? Who adds the value to the game, where are the bodies that fill up the content of the game? Casual players are vital to the success of the game. I think people assume that because you're a casual gamer you add no value, that is wrong. I am a casual player and I think I contribute to the game, and especially Hibernia. Being casual, doesn't mean being invisible.

Zerging cuts it just fine by me, as I said I feel no remorse if I happen to run into you with 300 hibs behind me. I see know reason why you should get special treatment from me because your capes match and your weapons glow. I doubt you feel sad when you run into a group of us gimps and you wallop us in no time, in fact I've taken enough abuse in irc to know that most power gamers are laughing. At least this way I get to laugh at whine in irc too.

I don't cry about being zerged, I don't cry about adds, I don't cry about being repeatedly run over by power gamers. I start a cg and go back for some more, and have fun doing it.

 

[Filip]

I see know reason why you should get special treatment from me because your capes match and your weapons glow.

hehe

 

[Asha]

nol I didn't say that, don't twist things
I said it's not enjoyable cause you don't get to do much
not cause I give a damn what other ppl think
I have zerged before - it's BORING
it's boring to hit something once and everything is dead - even more boring as a support char.
there is something between casual and power gamers, and I feel that they are what make the community by and large. Which is what DAoC was about for me.
anyhow don't care, mythic are stupid
my cape matched since lvl 35 ^^ do I get a prize?

 

[raid]

I agree the casual player was totally owned before toa, in many cases a good rvr group could take down 2 fg's casual. After toa, if a good rvr group loses to 2fg's casual, then imo they are not a good rvr group. They should PASTE 2fg's without even breaking a sweat.

This is not entirely true, atleast not vs melee heavy group because of grapple.

I don't cry about being zerged, I don't cry about adds, I don't cry about being repeatedly run over by power gamers. I start a cg and go back for some more, and have fun doing it.

Thats the way it should be Doubt powergamers have fun killing any casual gamer group over and over, getting more ppl to make the fight fair is a good thing for both sides. Most annoying thing imo is the ppl wh0 r0x0r emain with two opted high RR gankgroups, being practically impossible to kill or even have a decent fight against with a "ok" fg.

 

[HerculesPluto]

i agree, it is getting a bit shit for casual gamers, i had a good time in rvr for an hour tonight when grped with some good ppl, was a random group but a steady flow of good players where in it, and it was a caster grp w/ armsman bodyguarding me, this was the first time in er, hmm, prolly herbys titanic rr attempts all those months ago in that week after the mids did the gay alarm clock raid to steal the str back from alb. Now this grp was random but had good players and 1 quite uber ML ability, this is not the norm for us casual rvr'ers, we are lucky to have a cleric let alone a good setup + bodyguard etc. I dread to think when its fotm ml10 rr10 groups roaming.

 

[Event]

1. Do you have fun playing daoc?

2. Is there something else u should be doing irl?

Find your own balance between these two and do what you find enjoyable in both worlds.

 

[Gordonax]

u must be wrong ALOT then!

disagreeing with me is pointless...
I am right !
:touch:

Pffffttttt you only have 1fg of rightness, I have a whole zerg

 

[Riddcully]

Hehe my god it's like you've watched me play or something. This is me 100%, this is through personal choice however as my uni commitments mean a hell of alot more to me than any game. Once this year is over though i plan to return and actually get some stuff, START the ML's get some sc, some rp's etc etc.

2 years playing and 1 level 50 and next highest of 39. Seems all i do is roll bg alts and occasionally totter around with my 50 to get some cash/level some artifacts if i do decide to play.

I'd love to RvR and compete successfully however the lack of the above puts me off and i don't even try anymore. As a scout i'm rarely grouped and at RR3 ML0 undesirable anyway. Maybe this will change in the future when i have more free time/ less work deadlines....i hope it does.

FFS Bullitt, after reading your reply to Belo's post i thought thats sounds almost exactly the same as what i would've wrote apart from the character class, then i noticed that you are from/living in Middlesbrough and wondered if i had posted it when i was a bit pickled

Anyway imo casual gamers should just never leave APK without the zerg, never split the zerg to find the high ML/RR/8 arti grps and have fun, 'cos lets face it better a few RP's per battle than pressing /release all the time.

My biggest gripe about TOA is the difficulty of getting any sort of grp in AC to get my sorc to 50 'cos when i got to 40 in Barrows i felt like 50 was just around the corner like it was when i lvl'd my armsman.

And Bullitt, less of th after middlesbrough it may be a bit of a shithole but at least the Boro's had a good season

Adenn 50 arms
Riddcully 40 Sorc
Shadowlords Society

 

[Dyss]

You all say the same that the gap is 2big blabalbla....
its the same now. Befor everyone got L50 the gap was HUGE. as someone said before Teza could take 40ppls me and a skald took 2fgs ez (healer and skald) and when SI come it because abit ez for "casual players" because everyone with 4p could get crafted set and spellcraft. So 2fgs "casual players" could take a set grp. Or even 1fg if RAs was down ect. and now the "casual players" have to take there time to get ML10 (how much that matter in zergs?) and artis (how much that matter in zerg?) but when you all do I hope you don't cry so much its just a game and no1 force you to go emain at prime time to meet the set grps? But I still understand you that it most be hard to die vs set grps. Who haven't spent time running all the way to amg from mtk / htk / what ever and die just before MG vs zerg or fg!? Probebly same feeling but you don't make FH post every time you die like that or? You release and something else or try other time maybe you are lucky this time

 

[Ctuchik]

but what do u expect the powergamers to do? sit down just to be kind?

how bout giving the casual players some respect? dont see much of that in this thread from certain ppl... my view on theese "powergamers" are they are 15:ish years old, have no G/F, skip school just to be able to play more and generally have bad attitude... (and no, telling me on this board that u are 38 and have 3 kids, a job that gives u 200k a month isnt gonna make me believe u)

but tbh, thats to much to ask for, u "leet" rvr guys seem to fail to realize that u dont get respect coz u dont respect the casual players. or very few of u do anyway. i cant cound the times ive been pushed of a camp, getting my artifact mob stolen, (wich i was alredy fighting with, not just camping for it to spawn) or just getting told to "FO" coz "rvr leet boi" needs that mob more then me....

i try not to generalize, but u guys makes it damn hard not to

 

[rure]

how bout giving the casual players some respect? dont see much of that in this thread from certain ppl... my view on theese "powergamers" are they are 15:ish years old, have no G/F, skip school just to be able to play more and generally have bad attitude... (and no, telling me on this board that u are 38 and have 3 kids, a job that gives u 200k a month isnt gonna make me believe u)

lol :great: you are very narrow-minded, arent you?

edit: nm. thought you meant RPs

 

[rvn]

do you whine irl if someone makes more money than you cause he spends more time etc? so pointless to whine just accept it. nothing is fair.

 

[yaruar]

do you whine irl if someone makes more money than you cause he spends more time etc? so pointless to whine just accept it. nothing is fair.

My manager earns more than 3 times what I do. He's an incompetant fuckwit, he works less hours than me too.....

Although seriously, i don't begrudge the people who's lives are daoc and who put in the 10+ hours a day they need to be the best of the best. No point whining, when it comes down to it, i'm the one with a good job, a nice girlfriend, a lovely flat and a great social life. Daoc to me is a timefiller for the evenings to unwind from work, not a way of life.

 

[Gordonax]

do you whine irl if someone makes more money than you cause he spends more time etc? so pointless to whine just accept it. nothing is fair.

Soruzi, first up it's not about whining. And I have no problem whatsoever with people playing for as long as they like - if that's what they want to do and what they enjoy, then great. But the problem is that unless you're prepared to sink an awful lot of time into ToA, the casual player no longer has the option of having a competitive character for a long, long time.
Pre-ToA, a group of 1.5-2fg casual competant players could have a good, pretty even fight with a high-RR group. Most times you'd lose, sometimes you'd win, but either way it would be a fun experience. With MLs and artifacts on the lose, that's now moved up to 5fg - and even then, you're quite likely to get wiped fast repeatedly.
Take last night, for example. We did our first guild run for a while in Odins, with 1.5fgs of largely low-RR characters. Pre-ToA, we used to do these largely in HW and have a lot of good fights - we'd meet good gank groups who'd beat us, but in a fun, good fight.
Last night, 1fg of Hibs repeatedly kicked us in seconds. Actually not even seconds - I don't think we lasted that long on some occasions! Why? Well, one time it was simply bad luck - we came over a rise straight into them, thy insta'd, and by the time we were running again most of us were dead. But the rest of the time it came down to their insane cast speeds, and we were dead without a blow being hit.
I'm not criticizing them in any way - they fought well, they didn't /laugh spam or any crap like that, and they were roaming rather than camping the wall with all powerfields blazing and 6 zillion mushrooms. But it shows you how - for the casual player - the game has changed. In other to have an even fight against them, we would have needed at least 3fg - and at the moment, as so many people have simply stopped playing for a while or are bored with playing thanks to the ToA grind, we don't have those numbers.
Yes, of course we could just spend the next six months in ToA levelling up MLs and artifacts and whatever else. But PvE grinding bores me and, to be honest, I don't want to do it. I like RvR, and pre-ToA it was a regular fun thing to do. With ToA, Mythic cut out an awful lot of fun from the game for people who play less than 20 hours a week.

 

[Runolas]

Grats, you managed to totally misunderstand me. I was not talking about from GOA/Mythic pov. I was talking about RvR/economy-wise. The casual player logging in for 2 hours twice a week has little impact on the DAoC world. A player logging in for 4 hours a day 5 days a week - not hardcore imo, has a huge effect. To Mythic their money is the same, so they are the same. To the community the more active player is more important. If you lose that player it doesn't matter if you gain 20 casual players, the community doesn't get back what they lost. They don't get back that lgm crafter or that great mind sorc or that person who led massive raids or the person who held together a guild. It's natural for people to leave the game, but I dont' think the game can attract new players with such a huge learning curve and time sink.

I just think that it's simple: players leaving >>> new players

Well actually I think you misunderstood, and to be frank I think you’re a bit wrong. You wrote, "To Mythic their money is the same", but imho came out with the wrong analysis. It is the casual player that funds doac and if that player base stops paying their monthly fee, you and I will most likely not have a game to play. It does not help if there is a community if there is no game to be played. I agree that within a guild or alliance the loss of a key player could be tough. Many dedicated players have left, but many of them have also come back.

What I fear the most is Mythic digging their own grave with not attraction new players to the game and at the same time the casual player feeling that he cannot compete. The domino effect of huge numbers of casual players leaving (stop paying) and Mythic not getting new players (new paying) to the game is what makes the biggest impact on whether you and I get to player our favourite game. I think Mythic needs to give new players a starting kit with 1 lvl 50 char free, but thats me

Personally I would like to say that the difference between hardcore RvR players and more casual players has always been there and will always be there. However I would like to point out that RvR atm is a bit special since a huge portion of the player base are stuck in ToA. It is still possible to have fun in RvR, but one needs to understand that teaming up is the key. By teaming up I'm not talking 4-5fg's, but with 1.5-2fg you can have a lot of fun and challenging experiance.

And last I'm more concerned with cheats like radar etc, than ML's, RR and Artefacts. Being a stealther you see a lot of strange things and imho that is what fucks up any game.

 

[Dyss]

But the problem is that unless you're prepared to sink an awful lot of time into ToA, the casual player no longer has the option of having a competitive character for a long, long time.

what was your /play at L50 on your first char?

 

[Gordonax]

what was your /play at L50 on your first char?

About a bazillion years. And ToA is worse.

You actually hit the nail on the head: I'm not going through that whole boring process again. It was bearable when levelling your first level 50, because at least it was all new and interesting. But doing effectively the same process again for ToA is just dull. And I'm not prepared to pay lots of money for months to be bored.

 

[rure]

I kinda agree with soruzi and with you Gordonax. A player(s) that spends more time in the game should have a higher chance of defeating a player(s) with less amounts of time spent. But with TOA it has come to the extent where this player with less time on his/her hands they dont seem to have (I havent been to Emain post-toa) a chance anymore.

OR/(And?)

It could be the fact that these "powergamers" adapt more quickly to the new ways of playing and the "casual gamer" havent yet figured out to counter the new tricks. Which basicly means he needs to spend more time in RvR to get used TOA.

 

[Dyss]

About a bazillion years. And ToA is worse.

You actually hit the nail on the head: I'm not going through that whole boring process again. It was bearable when levelling your first level 50, because at least it was all new and interesting. But doing effectively the same process again for ToA is just dull. And I'm not prepared to pay lots of money for months to be bored.

Its what you make of it. Why do you have to be so effective if you are so called "casual player" and if you don't have any goals with the game why try to play like a power gamer? Just team up with some old m8s or new 1 and do the artis as it comes along, and team up with someone even tho you could kill the orange mob easy doesn’t say you have to, invite a lowlvl in guild or what ever, it might take abit longer time but not that boring maybe. I don't know.

Btw you all say what would the game be without the power gamers? (can it be?)
One happy place without whajn? Will ALWAYS be some1 that playes abit more then the next guy will the guy/girl that play 4hours instead of the other one that play 3hours be the power gamer?
:touch:

 

[nol]

You all say the same that the gap is 2big blabalbla....
its the same now. Befor everyone got L50 the gap was HUGE. as someone said before Teza could take 40ppls me and a skald took 2fgs ez (healer and skald) and when SI come it because abit ez for "casual players" because everyone with 4p could get crafted set and spellcraft. So 2fgs "casual players" could take a set grp. Or even 1fg if RAs was down ect. and now the "casual players" have to take there time to get ML10 (how much that matter in zergs?) and artis (how much that matter in zerg?) but when you all do I hope you don't cry so much its just a game and no1 force you to go emain at prime time to meet the set grps? But I still understand you that it most be hard to die vs set grps. Who haven't spent time running all the way to amg from mtk / htk / what ever and die just before MG vs zerg or fg!? Probebly same feeling but you don't make FH post every time you die like that or? You release and something else or try other time maybe you are lucky this time

Sorry mate, but I don't see people coming here to bitch about being killed by 1fg primetime. I do however see people coming here that bitch about being zerged at primetime in emain. We are illustrating why it happens, we don't care how. If any crying is done it's normally by power gamers.

 

[Skilgannon]

A player(s) that spends more time in the game should have a higher chance of defeating a player(s) with less amounts of time spent.

A higher chance I agree with. But at the moment it isn't a chance.

There is only one option open now and that is to zerg big and zerg hard.

Maybe Mythic are smarter than we give them credit. They want large fights, they don't want to balance gp against gp. How do you force people to zerg?