Stop hib pry/excal madness.

[Sharkith]

And the game is about having fun, nothing more, nothing less. I have enough of "ups and downs" in my worktime - when I´m off work I want to have fun - and if I don´t I choose to do something else. =) Before when mid have had low rvr-success I could choose to do something else with my guildes, the alternatives are very limited right now, because of lower numbers, so I log instead. =)

Should be interesting what catacombs bring when it comes to doing stuff thats fun, probably gonna level a new thane on excal while wife levels her valkyria, if not guild-activity moves up.

/j

I appreciate your sentiments. I have recently been promoted to become one of the GM's of the Marsh Horde. We have a good guild now with a solid structure and some great members. On average we have a minimum of a full group to play with in RvR and plenty of people who enjoy PvE. So I am quite bouyant because the guild experience is so good.

That said I was recently down because we lost a lot of good people to WOW temporarily....

With Catacombs it will change there will be new content to play and enjoy and I fully intend to have a go at that. Not with a Vamp or a Bianshee

I want to try a support class out having found a Nightshade such a pain to level (I only got one free level off the new system).

One of the things I would challenge anyone here to try is - what I call 'No-release' gaming. Basically if your character dies and does not get a rezz then you have to delete it..... make an exception of the BG's and RvR but in PvE make it such that you have to get a rezz or the character literally dies....

It is a kind of hardcore playing - and it will change your gaming style dramatically.

How many of you could get to 50 without doing that?

It makes you look at the dungeons in a totally new light I can tell you. I went into Muire tombs with a level 23 Druid and escaped with 2% health and my heart in me throat. I then tried the quest in there and she died. Try it and see how it makes you change your playing style.... It has made me see the game very differently.

 

[ian_heaps]

I appreciate your sentiments. I have recently been promoted to become one of the GM's of the Marsh Horde. We have a good guild now with a solid structure and some great members. On average we have a minimum of a full group to play with in RvR and plenty of people who enjoy PvE. So I am quite bouyant because the guild experience is so good.

That said I was recently down because we lost a lot of good people to WOW temporarily....

With Catacombs it will change there will be new content to play and enjoy and I fully intend to have a go at that. Not with a Vamp or a Bianshee

I want to try a support class out having found a Nightshade such a pain to level (I only got one free level off the new system).

One of the things I would challenge anyone here to try is - what I call 'No-release' gaming. Basically if your character dies and does not get a rezz then you have to delete it..... make an exception of the BG's and RvR but in PvE make it such that you have to get a rezz or the character literally dies....

It is a kind of hardcore playing - and it will change your gaming style dramatically.

How many of you could get to 50 without doing that?

It makes you look at the dungeons in a totally new light I can tell you. I went into Muire tombs with a level 23 Druid and escaped with 2% health and my heart in me throat. I then tried the quest in there and she died. Try it and see how it makes you change your playing style.... It has made me see the game very differently.

Sounds like a very good idea in theory, but I feel for every single character than can rez. They are gonna get spam 24/7. If they don't go out of there wat to rez people they gonna be in for some unfounded flaming off the dead person.

 

[Sharkith]

Sounds like a very good idea in theory, but I feel for every single character than can rez. They are gonna get spam 24/7. If they don't go out of there wat to rez people they gonna be in for some unfounded flaming off the dead person.

Lol well it is not for everyone is it?

I would say anyone who then goes off spamming for a rezz and screaming at people are just taking it way too seriously. When I went into Muire the first time I got past a certain point and had this rush of adrenalin feeling that I had passed a point of no return. I almost had too. I just escaped that time. The next time when a Bard spammed an aoe mezz in our group I knew it was all over for the character. It will all be written up as a kind of story.

Anyway it was just a thought for people to try out if they want to vary their game. Imagine trying to get to lvl 10 without dying once.

 

[TheBinarySurfer]

We do monitor the situation every week it's just that LWRP are not any indicator of who is underpopulated or not.

If you look at Hibs total LWRP as quoted above it's 12 million give or take however taken by itself, this gives no information at all about the state of RvR on Pryd.

Of those 12 million RPs, 4 million were earnt by the top 4 guilds. By contrast, the top 4 Alb guilds were worth just over a million RPs between them and the top 4 Mid guilds racked up around 3 million. If you take the high scoring guilds out of the equation, Hib suddenly starts to look much less dominant. You're asking us to punish a whole realm because four guilds are doing better than average?

Unrelated question but im wondering if you can answer this since eviross has stopped reading FH.Where exactly is the catacombs marketing campaign - ive seen ONE advert for it...Not flaming but i would like to know.And please please dont tell me on the camelot-europe website or i'll cry.

 

[TheBinarySurfer]

well public whines like this surely do your realm mates a lot of good. What kind of self respecting community would come out and whine in public basically telling everyone in their own realm that they are rubbish and that they need help? Just because things take a slight down turn for them. Pull yourselves together and go find a private forum to whine and maybe even come up with a plan. Like the guys said Hib was planning this for months on end and it hasn't all gone smoothly - but are we gonna tell you lot - nah get a life!

Hibbies are different true - it keeps its concerns private - we do not disparage our realm mates by saying we are crap and that we need help. We have the bonuses for good reasons and you know what? Once the populations are even we will relish losing them and coming out and stuffing you silly. Then we will come and laugh as you continue to whine.

I salute the Mids who are making a game of it - they were out last night again and it was a very good night. It was not easy for us by any means the Mids should be proud of their showing. Its about time the Albs figured out that they might want to think carefully about a new game plan.

Learn some self respect guys.

Sharkith

(with an almighty hangover)

Look at the number of active rvr clerics/sorcs/casters in general for alb and then compare to active number of healers/casters or casters/druids/wardens and tell me you dont have an easier time building groups than we do.
Not a whine just pointing out sommat thats been around a long time.The alb stealthzerg (now the alb scoutzerg).
That said we did well for a few days, but i noticed as soon as we beat a hib/mid group a few times in a row (because we did have a pefectly running machine of a group for a few days...) they came back with 2fg and we got steamrolled.Result - few runs later, everyone logs, no rvr for anyone.

 

[Yma]

I enjoy the server now more so than I ever have.

Same, and I have a chance to learn more german, plus I have the rewards ... it's a win-win situation. I just wonder what will happen to Prydwen hardware.

 

[Azathrim]

. it's a win-win situation.

Agreed... so lovely doing artifact encounters in 30 seconds. Shroom, Pull, pick loot!

 

[Adianna]

Hmm... well telling us that you can't RvR because no one plays supporting classes in your realm accomplishes what? Do you think it's easy to find a druid/bard in hib? It's sometimes even hard to find 8 people for a group.

When there are to few clerics in the realm, play one. If you don't like to, well... then you're close to finding out what the problem is.

 

[Sharkith]

Look at the number of active rvr clerics/sorcs/casters in general for alb and then compare to active number of healers/casters or casters/druids/wardens and tell me you dont have an easier time building groups than we do.
Not a whine just pointing out sommat thats been around a long time.The alb stealthzerg (now the alb scoutzerg).
That said we did well for a few days, but i noticed as soon as we beat a hib/mid group a few times in a row (because we did have a pefectly running machine of a group for a few days...) they came back with 2fg and we got steamrolled.Result - few runs later, everyone logs, no rvr for anyone.

Actually I am glad you brought that up - we have a distinct shortage of healers who are active. We do not get it easy to build random groups. Where we have made a difference (and I can only speak for our guild) is we have brought in new people and took them through the game from scratch and suddenly we don't always have to go without a warden/healer.

Now recently our members want to try out Rangers etc. Suddenly last ngiht we had no healer or buffer and boy does that make a difference - the result - we will adapt in such a way as to allow people to play whatever character they will enjoy on the night. That will take time and we will have a few months when we will be disjointed but we will adapt - we don't go to our guild forums and whine at everyone because they don't play the character they started out with.... So you have one rough evening and you immediately adapt. No point coming here and whining (and I know your not whining BTW) with self defeating garbage about bonuses this and that.

The other thing your pointing out at the end of your post is that you seem to want to play RvR as a group on group thing? Is this your expectation of RvR?

I am not saying it is but is if it is then your always going to be disappointed because that expectation is not sustainable. Think about it - can you sustain it in the light of the evidence?

Adapt again and change dammit! Expect adds and 2fg's to turn up when you have had a bit of a run. Why go off to mommy crying because the bigger gang turned up and fried your priest or whatever. I mean all this claptrap about fg versus fg and the honour and nonsense of that. These expectations of the most competitive part of this game just do not fit the environment as it has been constructed by Mythic. What should we do all line up in the battlefield and take it in turns group on group and prove who is best? Smell the coffee.

I don't mean to go on at you guys but this is a bit sad - just cos you get added to you don't want to play - does that mean you should log. Nope it might mean you need a tower to camp in though. New Frontiers is a good game it provides groups with ample opportunity to adapt and change their style according to who they encounter. If players cannot adapt to that environment then the players need to learn that a game should not be played in only one way. Vary it a bit thats what makes it interesting playing against human opponents.

I am sorry I am quite combative when I see whines with no justification. If you go to Pryd.net you will see I am normally a bit calmer but these boards make you a bit more forthright. So apologies if what I am saying is offensive in any way I just get a bit sick of reading some of the crap that has been posted in this thread.

Sharkith

 

[Quinlan]

Rest of the post is summarised in: Less QQ mids/albs

I don't mean to go on at you guys but this is a bit sad - just cos you get added to you don't want to play - does that mean you should log. Nope it might mean you need a tower to camp in though. New Frontiers is a good game it provides groups with ample opportunity to adapt and change their style according to who they encounter. If players cannot adapt to that environment then the players need to learn that a game should not be played in only one way. Vary it a bit thats what makes it interesting playing against human opponents.

One thing you forget Sharkith:
Alot of people dont like tower camping. People want fe. a nice 8v8. Why go camp a tower if you dont like it. Then just log and do something else that is fun

 

[Killerbee]

One thing you forget Sharkith:
Alot of people dont like tower camping. People want fe. a nice 8v8. Why go camp a tower if you dont like it. Then just log and do something else that is fun

That's very true and on a server with higher population, you actually can find both aspect. Here it's rather adapt or log/move.

 

[Sparrow]

Playing Hib/Pryd lately reminds me of going to an unfinished zone in WoW.

Totally deserted, and oh so boring.

 

[Deepflame]

One of the things I would challenge anyone here to try is - what I call 'No-release' gaming. Basically if your character dies and does not get a rezz then you have to delete it..... make an exception of the BG's and RvR but in PvE make it such that you have to get a rezz or the character literally dies....

Hey, that's not a bad idea actually, I'm gonna give that a shot some day. Ofcourse, first I have too many raids to do on Alb here, thanks to Chronictank But after that I'll try something like that, sounds like fun.

Besides, I have to wait till Catacombs first, all my character slots are full.

 

[Killerbee]

When there are to few clerics in the realm, play one. If you don't like to, well... then you're close to finding out what the problem is.

There were millions of clerics once, just got bored with not getting grp so rerolled infi/scout or quitted/moved to other servers.

 

[Dorimor1]

Hmm seems the rock you been under now is in your head

Firstly, I don't have a rock in my head, secondly, im not going to argue anymore, all i can say that leaving prydwen was the best decision of my daoc career

 

[Rami]

Playing Hib/Pryd lately reminds me of going to an unfinished zone in WoW.

Totally deserted, and oh so boring.

Playing WoW reminds me of when I was in Disneyland as a kid

 

[Gamah]

Playing WoW reminds me of watching paint dry.

 

[Luona]

rami Fittja aint disneyland

 

[Deepflame]

There were millions of clerics once, just got bored with not getting grp so rerolled infi/scout or quitted/moved to other servers.

I'm still looking for some RvR fun these days with my cleric, have been really enjoying it lately.

 

[Sparrow]

Playing WoW reminds me of when I was in Disneyland as a kid

Minnie Mouse?

And mock WoW's graphics all you want (I love them) - the PvP balancing is so good it's a work of art.

 

[TheBinarySurfer]

Actually I am glad you brought that up - we have a distinct shortage of healers who are active. We do not get it easy to build random groups. Where we have made a difference (and I can only speak for our guild) is we have brought in new people and took them through the game from scratch and suddenly we don't always have to go without a warden/healer.

Now recently our members want to try out Rangers etc. Suddenly last ngiht we had no healer or buffer and boy does that make a difference - the result - we will adapt in such a way as to allow people to play whatever character they will enjoy on the night. That will take time and we will have a few months when we will be disjointed but we will adapt - we don't go to our guild forums and whine at everyone because they don't play the character they started out with.... So you have one rough evening and you immediately adapt. No point coming here and whining (and I know your not whining BTW) with self defeating garbage about bonuses this and that.

The other thing your pointing out at the end of your post is that you seem to want to play RvR as a group on group thing? Is this your expectation of RvR?

I am not saying it is but is if it is then your always going to be disappointed because that expectation is not sustainable. Think about it - can you sustain it in the light of the evidence?

Adapt again and change dammit! Expect adds and 2fg's to turn up when you have had a bit of a run. Why go off to mommy crying because the bigger gang turned up and fried your priest or whatever. I mean all this claptrap about fg versus fg and the honour and nonsense of that. These expectations of the most competitive part of this game just do not fit the environment as it has been constructed by Mythic. What should we do all line up in the battlefield and take it in turns group on group and prove who is best? Smell the coffee.

I don't mean to go on at you guys but this is a bit sad - just cos you get added to you don't want to play - does that mean you should log. Nope it might mean you need a tower to camp in though. New Frontiers is a good game it provides groups with ample opportunity to adapt and change their style according to who they encounter. If players cannot adapt to that environment then the players need to learn that a game should not be played in only one way. Vary it a bit thats what makes it interesting playing against human opponents.

I am sorry I am quite combative when I see whines with no justification. If you go to Pryd.net you will see I am normally a bit calmer but these boards make you a bit more forthright. So apologies if what I am saying is offensive in any way I just get a bit sick of reading some of the crap that has been posted in this thread.

Sharkith

If i wanted to tower camp, i'd roll an sniper spec archer or a caster, how much use is a speeder in a tower?And i dont believe in the fg-fg honor thing as a must but really, how much fun is it getting steamrolled with little chance to fight back time after time...Sure its a laugh maybe a few times a night but it gets thin real fast.
Not a whine, just an observation.To adapt to your analogy, if you keep getting a kicking from the bigger gang and you dont have any more people you can call in to your side do you 1) keep getting the shit kicked out of you 2) go somewhere where they cant get at you and do something else (which is what the large majority of albs are doing now - pve).

Just a point...

 

[xxManiacxx]

Not really, we try to keep keeps at a level we can sustain for a long time - so it depends on how much bp´s we aquire at the time. =)

/j

Consider our grp only made over 1mil rp/week and we only upgraded keeps when we "used" it after a little discussion I would say we saved up

 

[Sharkith]

One thing you forget Sharkith:
Alot of people dont like tower camping. People want fe. a nice 8v8. Why go camp a tower if you dont like it. Then just log and do something else that is fun

I did not forget that. Many of you like 8v8 why not ask for 8v8 instanced arenas? I mean if you really get your kicks that way why not ask for it? They can do it and the technology is there now to Match group versus group. Have you guys looked at the patch they are currently researching? Special RR quests?

Surely if you petitioned them they would change things you pay your money after all?

Have you petitioned them or asked for a change in your environment?

If not why blame the current environment which you don't like? Ask for something that suits you - I do not object to that what I object to is unrealistic expectations about the current environment which is not going to deliver this very specific expectation. I am sorry if I sound beligerant but seriously you are doing it to yourselves if you haven't tried to suggest postive changes...

This thread was a whine - many of you have legitimate concerns and worht while suggestions why not start a different thread and dusciss what you would like to see?

Sharkith

 

[Sharkith]

If i wanted to tower camp, i'd roll an sniper spec archer or a caster, how much use is a speeder in a tower?And i dont believe in the fg-fg honor thing as a must but really, how much fun is it getting steamrolled with little chance to fight back time after time...Sure its a laugh maybe a few times a night but it gets thin real fast.
Not a whine, just an observation.To adapt to your analogy, if you keep getting a kicking from the bigger gang and you dont have any more people you can call in to your side do you 1) keep getting the shit kicked out of you 2) go somewhere where they cant get at you and do something else (which is what the large majority of albs are doing now - pve).

Just a point...

Well your making good points but should I tell your realm how to fight? I would change it a bit - flames go up on a tower and most campers run to the tower. Flames on another tower the zerg splits.... Flames on another tower and you have suddenly got a spread out BG - all because the flame chasers do not think but just chase flames.....(it happened at berks right now)

Think about it... one well organised group moving around hitting seperate places can do a lot. Don't get bogged down just keep moving. Lose one or two dead don't rezz run and come back. Why leave a set target?

What kills you might be getting drawn into the area where the zerg is - work around it - maybe go set some flames in Midgard - draw them out. Why always camp where the Zerg is ?

Just some random thoughts from someone who wishes he had a Bard to run with.

there have to be ways to exploit the unthinking large group. Avoid setting a pattern and try to set your own agenda.

Sharkith

 

[Elendar]

I did not forget that. Many of you like 8v8 why not ask for 8v8 instanced arenas? I mean if you really get your kicks that way why not ask for it? They can do it and the technology is there now to Match group versus group. Have you guys looked at the patch they are currently researching? Special RR quests?

Surely if you petitioned them they would change things you pay your money after all?

Have you petitioned them or asked for a change in your environment?

If not why blame the current environment which you don't like? Ask for something that suits you - I do not object to that what I object to is unrealistic expectations about the current environment which is not going to deliver this very specific expectation. I am sorry if I sound beligerant but seriously you are doing it to yourselves if you haven't tried to suggest postive changes...

This thread was a whine - many of you have legitimate concerns and worht while suggestions why not start a different thread and dusciss what you would like to see?

Sharkith

if we are so upsetting to you what do you care if all the people who like 8v8 (oddly enough all the high rr people) log when we are not having fun

 

[Quinlan]

I did not forget that. Many of you like 8v8 why not ask for 8v8 instanced arenas? I mean if you really get your kicks that way why not ask for it? They can do it and the technology is there now to Match group versus group. Have you guys looked at the patch they are currently researching? Special RR quests?

Surely if you petitioned them they would change things you pay your money after all?

Have you petitioned them or asked for a change in your environment?

If not why blame the current environment which you don't like? Ask for something that suits you - I do not object to that what I object to is unrealistic expectations about the current environment which is not going to deliver this very specific expectation. I am sorry if I sound beligerant but seriously you are doing it to yourselves if you haven't tried to suggest postive changes...

This thread was a whine - many of you have legitimate concerns and worht while suggestions why not start a different thread and dusciss what you would like to see?

Sharkith

Your so missing the point mate. I dont want Irvr dungeons. Since that takes away the mayor thrill of rvr. The unknown. You know some good group is around but you dont know where. They can be over the next hill or be 3 zones away. But being on your toes all the time gives a certain adreneline rush. Thats is what i like in this game

I coulnt care less about iRvR..takes the excitement away. Fe i will always remeber a fight with PE in OF near the buff trees near the entrance. Was in an eclipse group (was still in AD myself) and we fought PE. No adds from either side. It was about a 7 min fight. Yes 7 mins..that is fun..eventho we lost that fight no-one really cared. Was FUN

Ofcourse it is also fun to kill impossible odds. And dont get me started on..if you dont like it fix it...i made so many groups in my doac career tis silly and spend hours doing so. That being in the time OF wasnt exactly ruled by Hibs

I dont know you and you just recently started posting heavily. Here and on pryd.net. You still have the energy and the (no offense) dessilusioned ideas of someone who hastn been out alot yet. Dont ask me how you cant take offense to that statement but had to be said and isnt ment bad ;p

Good for you you are still having alot of fun in game and hope it stays that way. But you suggesting to me what i should do if i dont like is rather silly. I know what i need to do a whole lot better then you do. I still have very entertaining evenings on pryd (as long as the hib zerg isnt to bad) thank you. So you do your little thing and i'll do mine

A well a tad flamish at the end but hey this is FH and you should try to see another point of view besides your own limited view. You guys have it easier now since you have a hib zerg backup alot. Try fighting the odds with you being the only group out in a packed zone with shitload of good groups. See if you still like the game or start whining about you not being able to rvr.

But hey i am still alive and kicking on pryd and will keep on doing so. Sadly it is all a bit less regular tho

 

[Elendar]

quin makes many good points there
and people making grps do have it a lot eaiser now, theres nothing like the oposition there used to me, now you may run into ga or kupo, reasonable guilds yes, but not like the high rr grps like mael, pe, ec etc used to be, that ran the same 8 players almost every single day, who didn't need things like vent to know what each other was doing, barely used the ma button, could just pick a target and the start of the fight and end up with the same one as the ma every time

 

[Tuorin]

if we are so upsetting to you what do you care if all the people who like 8v8 (oddly enough all the high rr people) log when we are not having fun

Yeh, I really don't get some of these dudes, they are (or til recently were) having rvr 1million times better than OF Hibs. If the game sucks, zergs, bored, you log, if it doesn't then you play, win or lose. Telling people that instanced rvr is what higher rr ppl should look for is stupid. I kind of skimmed over the post, as I previously read from the same poster about making people really die if they didnt get rezzed? If it isn't bad enough being a support char on pryd atm.

I'm going to enforce a no buff/heal/rez rule soon to anyone that begs for buffs/heals/specs/ae buffs (from bot) then goes and frigging dives in on every fight you have. I simply can't believe the amount of qq from stealthers and casters for heals and buffs its frigging pathetic seeing a keep with 95% stealthers and casters. I have basically been mr nice guy and healed and buffed every single person that i see wounded or whatever only to find that the dude I just healed adds later on the rare solo fight you might find. Adds on a support class fighting, not another stealther. Thats the current situation, what's it like on other realms?

 

[Sharkith]

if we are so upsetting to you what do you care if all the people who like 8v8 (oddly enough all the high rr people) log when we are not having fun

sorry mate but you don't upset me - I usually hide when you guys turn up. I am sorry if I sounded upset at you who like 8v8. If I am sounding like that please point out where I have said so?

 

[Sharkith]

Your so missing the point mate. I dont want Irvr dungeons. Since that takes away the mayor thrill of rvr. The unknown. You know some good group is around but you dont know where. They can be over the next hill or be 3 zones away. But being on your toes all the time gives a certain adreneline rush. Thats is what i like in this game

Ofcourse it is also fun to kill impossible odds. And dont get me started on..if you dont like it fix it...i made so many groups in my doac career tis silly and spend hours doing so. That being in the time OF wasnt exactly ruled by Hibs

I dont know you and you just recently started posting heavily. Here and on pryd.net. You still have the energy and the (no offense) dessilusioned ideas of someone who hastn been out alot yet. Dont ask me how you cant take offense to that statement but had to be said and isnt ment bad ;p

Good for you you are still having alot of fun in game and hope it stays that way. But you suggesting to me what i should do if i dont like is rather silly. I know what i need to do a whole lot better then you do. I still have very entertaining evenings on pryd (as long as the hib zerg isnt to bad) thank you. So you do your little thing and i'll do mine

A well a tad flamish at the end but hey this is FH and you should try to see another point of view besides your own limited view. You guys have it easier now since you have a hib zerg backup alot. Try fighting the odds with you being the only group out in a packed zone with shitload of good groups. See if you still like the game or start whining about you not being able to rvr.

But hey i am still alive and kicking on pryd and will keep on doing so. Sadly it is all a bit less regular tho

what can I say thats a sharp post but an honest one. I don't go out of my way to pick an argument. I posted here because in fact I simply thought the thread was nuts. Now the thread has changed into something else and I am not going to reverse into some corner and claim I know everything because I don't. In fact even if I am inept and inexperienced at least now I have a reaction from the guys who know and I can begin to see how you have seen the game.

I don't consider that a knock I feel strongly it is worth reading you - and I want to just sit back and think more about how you see it when you play. That is not a noobish awe type nonesense it is simply how I begin to understand people better.

You get a kick out of the adrenalin rush well thats something I only get in PvE when I consider if I die the character gets deleted - period. In RvR it is not like that for the Noob. If you have been around for so long and you guys get to know the averages that you can just react well then thats a depth of knowledge I am likely to never have and how can I comment on what ought to be better?

So what am I saying now? Well I can take a stance and argue my corner. I can insist on a point and I will do so. I don't mind looking stupid because it provokes people to respond and it has worked here. Now I have an insight to the kind of enigma of you high rr gamers - I didn't have that 3 hours ago. Most important I didn't get it from this silly whine.

As for the instanced idea - most games have good opponent matching sotfware now. There is no reason why it could not happen in this game - they could work it out as an algortihm and have the major RR groups against a zerg or against another RR group. You would not know what you face but if they worked on it you would still get that rush.

Most RTS game have it now just because this is a MMPORG doesn't mean they cannot do it here....

Sharkith

p.s I have posted a lot cos I am bored - when I get a research project I am into I doubt very much I will be around here posting to don't worry it won't go on forever.