Politics So...Europe then?

[Raven]

Yup. It's the same rate as when I was last on it, straight out of Uni in 1996.

UK social is wank.

Unfortunately the facts get in the way of that.

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&r...uEogJeuNIeAonrxYg&sig2=1oDaJI-rXYpuQNJiNSHHWA

 

[Gwadien]

Oh wow, they've actually increased the amount of money given since 1942.

That's incredible, I wonder why, since the cost of living is the same as 1942.

 

[Raven]

...we are only looking at 96 to now...

ofc they have improved since the 40s...massively. Not even close to the point and not even sure why you are bringing it up, only one set of statistics in that paper even go back that far.

Social security is not just job club wages.

 

[Scouse]

Social security is not just job club wages.

Furry nuff. Job club was the only thing I meant (never claimed a single thing other than Job Club when I came out of Uni).

Was about 65 quid then about 70 quid now.

 

[Raven]

Which is fine when more things are taken care of. Which is as it should be, housing, child care etc. Like I say I would rather more money was put into social housing and whatnot with lower (if any) rents and more money for basic utilities.

While people should be treated with dignity it is often the case that people just aren't capable of looking after themselves. Money goes in, wanked on booze and fags, gas isn't paid...or whatever.

Also, free shoes for children!

 

[Gwadien]

The underclass system doesn't work if you don't give them the illusion that they're getting money for doing fuck all though.

 

[Raven]

Meh who cares. People always want more than they have so cover the basics and leave them to it.

 

[Scouse]

Meh who cares.

The public, by and large. They (including you) don't want their money spunked on stuff that doesn't work.

 

[Gwadien]

Meh who cares. People always want more than they have so cover the basics and leave them to it.

Yeah, as Scouse says, you, cos communism.

 

[Scouse]

http://www.monkeon.co.uk/doomsdayclock/

 

[Scouse]

I see you, Gary Lineker.

 

[Raven]

The public, by and large. They (including you) don't want their money spunked on stuff that doesn't work.

Paying for a roof over someone head and heating/food would work a hell of a lot better than giving out money that ends up being spent on things that end up costing money anyway in the long run. Booze, tabs, sitting about etc, massive burdens on tax income through healthcare. It would also provide further generations a more equal, stable home life.

We spank billions on patching things up when the same money could be spent better by preventing it, and imo would be far more productive.

 

[Gwadien]

Paying for a roof over someone head and heating/food would work a hell of a lot better than giving out money that ends up being spent on things that end up costing money anyway in the long run. Booze, tabs, sitting about etc, massive burdens on tax income through healthcare. It would also provide further generations a more equal, stable home life.

Yes, but aren't you the number one complainer about nanny states?

Why should some people be exempt from being nannied and others not?

 

[Raven]

That isn't the nanny state.

If they want to better their life then they could get a job like the rest of us do.

Provide a stable basis and give people the freedom to get out of it, rather than just throwing money at sink estates and hoping that one day it goes away. Top tip, it wont.

Tell me, do you think its fair that the state pays for people to smoke and drink and wind up with long term health issues, and then pay to fix them? Sounds pretty insane to me.

 

[gohan]

I see you, Gary Lineker.

The comment section on there is literally like watching job and raven replying on here

 

[gohan]

That isn't the nanny state.

If they want to better their life then they could get a job like the rest of us do.

Provide a stable basis and give people the freedom to get out of it, rather than just throwing money at sink estates and hoping that one day it goes away. Top tip, it wont.

Tell me, do you think its fair that the state pays for people to smoke and drink and wind up with long term health issues, and then pay to fix them? Sounds pretty insane to me.

I actually fully agree with this part. What is my life becoming

 

[Gwadien]

That isn't the nanny state.

If they want to better their life then they could get a job like the rest of us do.

Provide a stable basis and give people the freedom to get out of it, rather than just throwing money at sink estates and hoping that one day it goes away. Top tip, it wont.

Tell me, do you think its fair that the state pays for people to smoke and drink and wind up with long term health issues, and then pay to fix them? Sounds pretty insane to me.

Sure, but how do you police it? - Give people food tokens as soon as they're on the dole?

What if you have a trained bloke who refuses to take a shelf stacking job that the Job Centre lined up for them? - Humiliate him with food tokens too?

 

[Gwadien]

'why don't they stay in Turkey?'

Panorama, Undercover: The Refugees Who Make Our Clothes

 

[Raven]

food tokens

um...I think you will find that isn't what I have said at all. and where did I mention training for shelf stacking?

Beside which, if you nose dive in life then accept that you either better yourself or get busy doing menial tasks.

The state already provides plenty of opportunity to better yourself, anyone with any qualifications (or none) can study for a degree. The state can and does also already provide the opportunity to study all sorts of other things. A mate of mine did a residential CAD course (fully paid for) and now makes a fortune, he spent 3 years at job club before that. I am doing a degree. I left school at 16 with 0 GCSEs, let alone A levels.

There is no excuse for not bettering yourself, people in the UK have every opportunity and if they don't wish to take them, then fuck'um, quite frankly. Give them the basics and let them make their own mind up. Sometimes people just don't want to be helped.

 

[Gwadien]

um...I think you will find that isn't what I have said at all. and where did I mention training for shelf stacking?

Beside which, if you nose dive in life then accept that you either better yourself or get busy doing menial tasks.

The state already provides plenty of opportunity to better yourself, anyone with any qualifications (or none) can study for a degree. The state can and does also already provide the opportunity to study all sorts of other things. A mate of mine did a residential CAD course (fully paid for) and now makes a fortune, he spent 3 years at job club before that. I am doing a degree. I left school at 16 with 0 GCSEs, let alone A levels.

There is no excuse for not bettering yourself, people in the UK have every opportunity and if they don't wish to take them, then fuck'um, quite frankly. Give them the basics and let them make their own mind up. Sometimes people just don't want to be helped.

You're now talking about career aspirations, and you're denying food tokens and such - so how do you propose the welfare state should be reformed then?

 

[Raven]

I think someone needs to read what I posted. There is little point typing it again.

 

[Gwadien]

I think someone needs to read what I posted. There is little point typing it again.

No, because I said 'Food Tokens' which sounds very much like;

Provide a stable basis and give people the freedom to get out of it, rather than just throwing money at sink estates and hoping that one day it goes away. Top tip, it wont.

Tell me, do you think its fair that the state pays for people to smoke and drink and wind up with long term health issues, and then pay to fix them? Sounds pretty insane to me.

 

[Raven]

err...at which point did I mention feeding, or food, or tokens? Please show your working.

But as you bring them up. Yes why not. Kids at my school got food tokens for the cafeteria, I did for a time when my single parent, part time working mum hit hard times.

The trouble is feeding kids in the holidays but some areas cover that too with clubs that parents and kids can go to. My wife used to run a club on a Saturday for fathers and children, many of whom didn't live with the kids. They all got a meal and some constructive interaction with the children. Advice was available on all sorts of things.

It is up to the parents to decide what they spend their money on, once the rent and utilities are paid for (ideally, directly by the government) then at least the next generation won't have to grow up starving in a cold house.

 

[Gwadien]

err...at which point did I mention feeding, or food, or tokens? Please show your working.

But as you bring them up. Yes why not. Kids at my school got food tokens for the cafeteria, I did for a time when my single parent, part time working mum hit hard times.

The trouble is feeding kids in the holidays but some areas cover that too with clubs that parents and kids can go to. My wife used to run a club on a Saturday for fathers and children, many of whom didn't live with the kids. They all got a meal and some constructive interaction with the children. Advice was available on all sorts of things.

It is up to the parents to decide what they spend their money on, once the rent and utilities are paid for (ideally, directly by the government) then at least the next generation won't have to grow up starving in a cold house.

We're not in the 1970s anymore though.

People have the freedom to do what they want with their money, so long as social services see it as appropriate, if they don't, children get removed.

The reality of it is that schools in particular are extremely supportive of kids on FSM (Free School Meals) so much that they're called 'Pupil Premium' because the schools get paid more in order for them to succeed and most schools fail the high achievers and medium achievers in order to get the FSM kids at a higher level.

It's important for this to be a private issue, so other kids aren't aware who's on FSM due to the stigma attached, and as a result, parents who are poor/on the dole get their money directly so their kids can 'keep up with the Joneses' which is important for their social development.

This works for those that volunteer for their kids to get FSM, but some don't and when you see the conditions these people live in, they live in one bedroom and they don't have any furniture in the house, because they're ashamed to claim FSM due to the stigma attached, if you start applying the same to those out of work, for someone else to spend it for them, they'll be less likely to claim it, and more likely to resort to other means in order to literally survive, through charities, or through illegal work, which is common especially in the areas I live in.

Whilst I agree there are some lazy fucks out there, I don't think changing to a 'food coupon' system would actually work, those lazy fucks will just resort to other means to get their fags and booze, counterfeits etc, and you'll just end up punishing the people who genuinely struggle.

I think you'd be surprised and possibly horrified to know the amount of people that work full-time but still have to subsidise their lives with a large chunk of benefits, because it's the reality of today.

 

[Job]

The government get a huge amount of benefits back from tax on booze , gambling and ciggies.
It's all they do.

 

[old.Osy]

Yup. It's the same rate as when I was last on it, straight out of Uni in 1996.

UK social is wank.

@Scouse on benefits shocker.

 

[Scouse]

I think you've proven @Gwadien's point about shaming there @old.Osy

 

[Scouse]

Our own Brexit Prime Minister laying it out for you guys.

@Bodhi @throdgrain @Moriath / any of the other Brexiters?

Of course, Bodhs will have something to say about economics being nothing to do with it, for throd it's about immigration and moriath, well, I'm not sure. But I'm pretty sure that our current PM saying that is more important than they'll let on

 

[old.Osy]

Our own Brexit Prime Minister laying it out for you guys.

@Bodhi @throdgrain @Moriath / any of the other Brexiters?

Of course, Bodhs will have something to say about economics being nothing to do with it, for throd it's about immigration and moriath, well, I'm not sure. But I'm pretty sure that our current PM saying that is more important than they'll let on

All I could hear was "Benefits, benefits, benefits".

Theresa May in benefits shocker.

 

[old.Osy]

I think you've proven @Gwadien's point about shaming there @old.Osy

Only I was sarcastic old chap. I am Romanian after all, the people portrayed by Channel 4 do really exist - and I'm not ashamed to say I may be related to a few. No shame in being on benefits, we have them over here aswell - it's the line between survival and desperation for many, even though it is being abused.

How did that saying go? "grin and bear it".