Politics So...Europe then?

[Raven]

Also, according to most people getting upset about our beloved, cherished bankers moving out, I thought they didn't contribute anything anyway?! Surely we would be glad to see the back of these evil, tax avoiding scumbags?! right!?

 

[Gwadien]

I have a solution to this refugee crisis. If everyone whinging and whining about it could kindly give up their spare room or sofa it would be sorted over night. Fed up of do-gooders telling people to do what they say, rather than do what they do.

They could also chip in for any temporary solutions, in the very least give food, blankets and perhaps books.

...or wait, no. It's easier to just raise awareness or whatever on twitter.

Don't be so ridiculous.

It's down to Governments to look after these people, it's down to the people to decide if Governments should look after these people.

Everyone (apart from Scouse) pays tax, so therefore that's their contribution to the betterment of these people.

It's like saying we should accept not having litter pickers anymore under a Tory Government because we 'can't afford it' and we should expect communities to do it for us.

Sure, communities should be able to do it if they're organised and they want to do it, but should they be expected?

 

[Job]

LOL, banks going to Europe..yeah right, the fucking capital of the defaulted loan.

 

[Gwadien]

LOL, banks going to Europe..yeah right, the fucking capital of the defaulted loan.

Yeah, says a lot about the uncertainty of the British economy if they're actually going to follow through on their threats and move to Europe eh?

 

[Scouse]

Also, according to most people getting upset about our beloved, cherished bankers moving out, I thought they didn't contribute anything anyway?! Surely we would be glad to see the back of these evil, tax avoiding scumbags?! right!?

Lol! It's all shits and giggles funniez!!!1!1! Lolz lolz rofflez!

It's definitely not serious that they're planning to move because brexit means they won't be able to conduct business - rather than stay here and we could look at how much they contribute.

But laugh it off, whilst pretending you didn't vote for brexit. Definitely don't treat any of these many and actual things that are happening as a direct result of brexit as serious at all.

 

[Raven]

Not at all. But what exactly do you think you are gaining by still being so mad about it? Some sort of pathetic moral high ground? A quick stroke of an emotionally fragile ego? Will it change anything? Will pigfucker have un-gambled the the country for his own political career? Nope...sorry...its done now, we all lose, chin up champ.

That's not to say there will be no benefits of being out, the Canada trade deal shambles is a fine example. A country of 11 million people (not event that, a region within Belgium) holding the rest of the EU at gun point...now that is the democracy that you want, isn't it?! Not that any EU citizens have had any say whatsoever in the American and Canadian trade deals, trade deals that will make life that much easier for our corporate masters, the real power behind the EU. It means precisely dick to them whether we are still in the EU or not.

The only people to blame are the majority of remainers, who's go-to argument is still OMG TEH RACIALISTS OMFG111!! - sheer, unadulterated idiocy and probably shows more about how wank our society has become than any EU vote ever will. Literally the main argument for remain appears to be to play the lowest common denominator, pathetic.

Yes I voted remain, a choice I didn't make until I was stood in the booth, not because of the cerebrally challenged, race card playing, self congratulatory mongs that made up the majority of voices from the remain side but because it felt right at the time, even now I am not entireley sure why, it doesn't even matter why.

You are correct though...No, I don't give much of a shit any more, what will be will be. If I can troll some naive, delicate folk then at least I can get a laugh out of it. I have far bigger things to worry about than something that has already happened and cannot be changed. Like moving on and making the best of things. You saps are just peddling water and making yourselves ill. Will you still be sat there lamenting the result in 2 years, 5 years...10?!

I tell you what @Scouse, seeing as you clearly hate the British, why not use all this negative energy that is clearly causing you so many issues and use it to make the best of it, or even consider moving to Ireland or something? you have said yourself (over and over) you are free to do what you like and they love a bit of good old fashioned tax dodging over there.

Anyway, tldr. Get over it, move on, one way or the other.

Spoiler

Lots of frothing rage inc, the acceptance process is long and hard if you want it to be. I left you a spelling mistake so you can take the argument off on some pointless tangent, if you fancy it. It will give you something to do while you clean the rage off your screen

 

[Raven]

Edit, there was also a 9th minute edit if you want to spin it off in that direction. Man I am spoiling you this morning, makes me rigid.

 

[Scouse]

tl:dr

 

[caLLous]

tl:dr

You can guess the jist of it.

The only people to blame are the majority of remainers, who's go-to argument is still OMG TEH RACIALISTS OMFG111!! - sheer, unadulterated idiocy and probably shows more about how wank our society has become than any EU vote ever will. Literally the main argument for remain appears to be to play the lowest common denominator, pathetic.

What are you blaming Remainers for? If there's anyone "to blame" for this entire situation it's the masses who voted Leave for stupid reasons (like their aversion to a single politician) or because... oh, hang on... a lot of them haven't got a single clue why they voted Leave. We've seen Leavers unable to answer the "why" question, we've seen Leavers saying they immensely regret the decision they made, we've seen Leavers say they will apologise to their children in the future, we've seen Leavers say they only voted Leave because they didn't think it would matter because Remain would win anyway, we've seen Leavers wishing that they'd voted the other way in hindsight. I'm not sure we've seen many similar sentiments from the other side... You simply cannot gloss over all of that and just write Remainers' complaints off in the wake of what was a really shittily run campaign from all sides.

As for "shows more about how wank our society has become", how about all the post-referendum reports of racist incidents because a lot of Leavers thought that a big switch would flick and all the immigrants would instantly fuck off? That shines a really good light on "our society" doesn't it?

As for the "lowest common denominator" rubbish... you've just encapsulated the entire Leave campaign. Well done.

 

[DaGaffer]

Not at all. But what exactly do you think you are gaining by still being so mad about it? Some sort of pathetic moral high ground? A quick stroke of an emotionally fragile ego? Will it change anything? Will pigfucker have un-gambled the the country for his own political career? Nope...sorry...its done now, we all lose, chin up champ.

That's not to say there will be no benefits of being out, the Canada trade deal shambles is a fine example. A country of 11 million people (not event that, a region within Belgium) holding the rest of the EU at gun point...now that is the democracy that you want, isn't it?! Not that any EU citizens have had any say whatsoever in the American and Canadian trade deals, trade deals that will make life that much easier for our corporate masters, the real power behind the EU. It means precisely dick to them whether we are still in the EU or not.

The only people to blame are the majority of remainers, who's go-to argument is still OMG TEH RACIALISTS OMFG111!! - sheer, unadulterated idiocy and probably shows more about how wank our society has become than any EU vote ever will. Literally the main argument for remain appears to be to play the lowest common denominator, pathetic.

Yes I voted remain, a choice I didn't make until I was stood in the booth, not because of the cerebrally challenged, race card playing, self congratulatory mongs that made up the majority of voices from the remain side but because it felt right at the time, even now I am not entireley sure why, it doesn't even matter why.

You are correct though...No, I don't give much of a shit any more, what will be will be. If I can troll some naive, delicate folk then at least I can get a laugh out of it. I have far bigger things to worry about than something that has already happened and cannot be changed. Like moving on and making the best of things. You saps are just peddling water and making yourselves ill. Will you still be sat there lamenting the result in 2 years, 5 years...10?!

I tell you what @Scouse, seeing as you clearly hate the British, why not use all this negative energy that is clearly causing you so many issues and use it to make the best of it, or even consider moving to Ireland or something? you have said yourself (over and over) you are free to do what you like and they love a bit of good old fashioned tax dodging over there.

Anyway, tldr. Get over it, move on, one way or the other.

Spoiler

Lots of frothing rage inc, the acceptance process is long and hard if you want it to be. I left you a spelling mistake so you can take the argument off on some pointless tangent, if you fancy it. It will give you something to do while you clean the rage off your screen

Do American or Canadian citizens get any say in foreign trade deals with the EU? In practical terms, of course they don't, and the idea that Joe Soap in the UK will get any say in a UK-Canada deal (or anywhere else for that matter) is ludicrous. The UK routinely does trade deals with horror shows like Saudi for arms etc and no politician has ever lost his seat about and its never been put to the public.

Oh, and just like Belgium holding up a deal with Canada, individual US senators do that kind of shit all the time, and besides, you can't complain about lack of EU accountability, whilst at the same time bemoaning democracy in action.

 

[old.Osy]

Do American or Canadian citizens get any say in foreign trade deals with the EU? In practical terms, of course they don't, and the idea that Joe Soap in the UK will get any say in a UK-Canada deal (or anywhere else for that matter) is ludicrous. The UK routinely does trade deals with horror shows like Saudi for arms etc and no politician has ever lost his seat about and its never been put to the public.

Oh, and just like Belgium holding up a deal with Canada, individual US senators do that kind of shit all the time, and besides, you can't complain about lack of EU accountability, whilst at the same time bemoaning democracy in action.

True democracy doesn't exist though, does it. It's spiced with a bit of socialism or totalitarianism / authoritarianism, so your point is somewhat moot. Of course Joe Soap will never get a say in most trade matters, but that is why Joe Soap is given the idea that he elected someone who'd look after his best interest.

Brexit, if you will, shat on democratic principles, regardless of them being applied correctly or not within the EU - and I think that's the core issue with it - It was largely a misguided choice, pushed to the masses by even more misguided political figures, which never truely represented the interests of Joe Soap.

 

[Raven]

Do American or Canadian citizens get any say in foreign trade deals with the EU? In practical terms, of course they don't, and the idea that Joe Soap in the UK will get any say in a UK-Canada deal (or anywhere else for that matter) is ludicrous. The UK routinely does trade deals with horror shows like Saudi for arms etc and no politician has ever lost his seat about and its never been put to the public.

Oh, and just like Belgium holding up a deal with Canada, individual US senators do that kind of shit all the time, and besides, you can't complain about lack of EU accountability, whilst at the same time bemoaning democracy in action.

I don't think comparing the EU to America is much use. The American system is beyond broken, as demonstrated in recent years. Not exactly something the EU should be aspiring to.

 

[Raven]

You can guess the jist of it.
What are you blaming Remainers for? If there's anyone "to blame" for this entire situation it's the masses who voted Leave for stupid reasons (like their aversion to a single politician) or because... oh, hang on... a lot of them haven't got a single clue why they voted Leave. We've seen Leavers unable to answer the "why" question, we've seen Leavers saying they immensely regret the decision they made, we've seen Leavers say they will apologise to their children in the future, we've seen Leavers say they only voted Leave because they didn't think it would matter because Remain would win anyway, we've seen Leavers wishing that they'd voted the other way in hindsight. I'm not sure we've seen many similar sentiments from the other side... You simply cannot gloss over all of that and just write Remainers' complaints off in the wake of what was a really shittily run campaign from all sides.

As for "shows more about how wank our society has become", how about all the post-referendum reports of racist incidents because a lot of Leavers thought that a big switch would flick and all the immigrants would instantly fuck off? That shines a really good light on "our society" doesn't it?

As for the "lowest common denominator" rubbish... you've just encapsulated the entire Leave campaign. Well done.

I am blaming remainers (and more specifically, remainer politicians) because it is their job to both rule us and to convince us of the correct way forward. Both of which they failed at. Labour was too busy imploding, the Tories were too busy with a stupid gamble, which back fired and the other parties are as much use as a chocolate tampon. Remainer public are as dumb as leavers on the whole and will take in whatever they are told to take in. The key arguments seem to have revolved around racism, or in the very least xenophobia, despite the fact that racism had little, if anything to do with it.

Put yourself in a leavers shoes. Has a think about it, decides the EU is not for them (doesn't matter the reason) gets called racist over and over again. Their reasons aren't challenged, they are just labelled racist anyway. My particular favorite was people screaming "little Englander" until it lost all meaning.

The predictable happens. I called it a long time before the result that calling people stupid or insulting their beliefs will not change their mind. The UK has got what it deserved.

But its ok, keep thinking its because of some deep rooted racist issue, that will fix things in a jiffy.

 

[Scouse]

I don't think comparing the EU to America is much use.

Why? They're both democratic systems.

US democracy is not really any worse off than UK or EU democracy. They're subject to the exact same pressures and the exact same problems.

I am blaming remainers

For what?!! For voting remain? For campaigning for remain?

All of it is clearly the fault of vote leave and leavers. Your raging anger makes you say and think very very silly things.

 

[Raven]

No, you are demonstrably wrong. They are completely different forms of democracy.

The sad thing is you know you are, you just aren't capable of admitting it. A shame.

But carry on wallowing in your pity, I am sure it will make everything better

 

[Scouse]

No, you are demonstrably wrong.

Demonstrate it then. Just saying it isn't good enough.

Demonstrate, with reasoning, why the US democratic system so massively different and awfully more fucked than the UK or EU system.

 

[DaGaffer]

True democracy doesn't exist though, does it. It's spiced with a bit of socialism or totalitarianism / authoritarianism, so your point is somewhat moot. Of course Joe Soap will never get a say in most trade matters, but that is why Joe Soap is given the idea that he elected someone who'd look after his best interest.

Brexit, if you will, shat on democratic principles, regardless of them being applied correctly or not within the EU - and I think that's the core issue with it - It was largely a misguided choice, pushed to the masses by even more misguided political figures, which never truely represented the interests of Joe Soap.

Yes...and that's been my view about "taking control of our sovereignty" all along. Its an illusion that takes about a millisecond to debunk, and yet in principle it was the best and most justifiable reason for Brexit. Certainly better than all the bullshit about immigration. In reality of course its utter nonsense and people have no more say in the real workings of Westminster (or Holyrood, or Stormont, or whatever the fucking Welsh one is) than they do in relation to Brussels.

 

[Job]

Anti immigration party in Lithuania wins 40 seats from 1 last year and is entering into a coalition
They are against open borders because of the brain drain, that has lost them 1.2 million from a population of 4 million.
Reported in reuters and the Express, not a single other news source has covered this.

 

[Raven]

Demonstrate it then. Just saying it isn't good enough.

Demonstrate, with reasoning, why the US democratic system so massively different and awfully more fucked than the UK or EU system.

I am not going to get into the long and the short of the differences between the US form of democracy, senate, president, non federal laws etc because it would be a complete waste of my time. I might as well try and describe the difference between red and blue to a blind man.

However, there have been numerous examples of public and presidential will being overridden by the senate, health care, social rights (abortion, gay marriage etc) mostly for no reason except it wasn't a republican idea. The EU appears to be trying to model itself on a system that is broken. Except rather than having two sides against each other you have 20 odd sides, all with different opinions. We have the House of Lords, that needs to be got rid of...just because it hasn't been yet does not mean it works or is better or comparable, it just means its shit in a different way.

I have said all along, if they imposed a fair form of federal European government then I would be all for it. But they won't because that is not how they (the few at the top) want it.

There is evidence accross the EU that the wheels are falling off, there is absolutely nobody to blame except the corrupt, failed politicians that run the EU in its current form.

 

[Scouse]

None of the things you bring up there demonstrate a radical qualitative difference between our democracies.

 

[DaGaffer]

Anti immigration party in Lithuania wins 40 seats from 1 last year and is entering into a coalition
They are against open borders because of the brain drain, that has lost them 1.2 million from a population of 4 million.
Reported in reuters and the Express, not a single other news source has covered this.

So they're an anti-emigration party then? In other words, the "how dare you try and have a better life" party.

Edit. The story is on the Beeb. They actually sound like a perfectly reasonable; "let's improve our quality of life so people don't have to leave" party. Nothing to see here.

 

[ECA]

Demonstrate it then. Just saying it isn't good enough.

Demonstrate, with reasoning, why the US democratic system so massively different and awfully more fucked than the UK or EU system.

I'll let a Princeton professor do it.

Testing Theories of American Politics: Elites, Interest Groups, and Average Citizens

 

[Raven]

None of the things you bring up there demonstrate a radical qualitative difference between our democracies.

Oh right...you have an elected Senate and a president as your head of state...I guess it is more different up't'north than I thought.

 

[DaGaffer]

I'll let a Princeton professor do it.

Testing Theories of American Politics: Elites, Interest Groups, and Average Citizens

So:

When the preferences of economic elites and the stands of organized interest groups are controlled for, the preferences of the average American appear to have only a minuscule, near-zero, statistically non-significant impact upon public policy.

Oh dear. And no doubt exactly the same in Europe or post-Brexit Britain.

 

[Raven]

So:


Oh dear. And no doubt exactly the same in Europe or post-Brexit Britain.

I think Brexit itself has put that to bed...

Then there is the whole Labour party implosion/rebellion. The official opposition being taken over by activists and members over political elites and corporate whores, its beautiful.

 

[DaGaffer]

I think Brexit itself has put that to bed...

Then there is the whole Labour party implosion/rebellion. The official opposition being taken over by activists and members over political elites and corporate whores, its beautiful.

Yes, you got one meaningful thing to vote about in 40 years and look what you did. You won't be getting another. And the labour thing confirms one of the things that link of ECA's says; interest groups don't equal general voter influence

 

[Raven]

Except when it clearly does. There are now 231 out of 650 MPs that are lead by a man who has not once but twice won his place on the back of what is essentially the public, a bunch of delusional, befuddled ultra left pillocks, but public nonetheless. Rather than a party that is dictated by corporations and corporate lobbyists.

 

[Job]

So they're an anti-emigration party then? In other words, the "how dare you try and have a better life" party.

Edit. The story is on the Beeb. They actually sound like a perfectly reasonable; "let's improve our quality of life so people don't have to leave" party. Nothing to see here.

Well I guess one mans immigration is anothers emmigration.
Couldn't find that beeb link this morning.
It's important because EU wide movement does have effects, much like capital cities sucking all the money and skills.
The poor of Europe will slowly all descend on the rich areas, leaving whole countries desolate.

 

[Scouse]

I'll let a Princeton professor answer a different question entirely.

I'm asking for a comparison between US and EU/UK democracy on a qualitative basis @ECA - not a theory on US politics in isolation.

The reason it isn't happening is because there's a real equivalency between our systems. There isn't a massive qualitative difference - just a procedural one really.

Now, asking for a comparison with Saudi / Thailand / Burma / Venesuela, easy. But the fact is - US politics is pretty damn close to EU/UK.

 

[DaGaffer]

Except when it clearly does. There are now 231 out of 650 MPs that are lead by a man who has not once but twice won his place on the back of what is essentially the public, a bunch of delusional, befuddled ultra left pillocks, but public nonetheless. Rather than a party that is dictated by corporations and corporate lobbyists.

It still doesn't. 400K labour party members who can join at £3 a pop isn't "the public". Read ECA's link. Its long and a bit jargony but explains how this fits one type of democracy that ultimately has no bearing at the polls or on the voice of the average person. If it was 10 million people joining the labour party, that would be a game changer, but it isn't, its half a percent of adults, and just to give some context, membership is just about back to pre-Tony Blair levels.