Politics So...Europe then?

Raven

Happy Shopper Ray Mears
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No, clearly it isn't. I can quote people making the exact claim if you wish. The counter argument has always been "but we had a veto"
 

Wij

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No, clearly it isn't. I can quote people making the exact claim if you wish. The counter argument has always been "but we had a veto"
No. That was for changes to the current treaties like admitting a new member country. We don't have a veto on things we've already signed up to.
 

Scouse

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We don't have a veto on things we've already signed up to.
Exactly.

It's like people didn't really understand how the EU and treaties in general worked eh?
 

Raven

Happy Shopper Ray Mears
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Still whataboutism :)

The exact argument from team brexit was that they wanted to take back sovereignty. The counter argument was that there was no loss of sovereignty by remaining anyway so there was nothing to take back.

Which is clearly bollocks. The rights or wrongs of a countries change to their law are irrelevant, the point is that the EU can demand that a sovereign state does or does not change their laws, with no democratic process.
 

DaGaffer

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Whataboutism. Did we or did we not take back sovereignty from the EU?

The argument isn't whether or not it was a good thing. The argument is that the claims about taking back sovereignty were not correct...when clearly they were.
You did. And you gave it to the Tories. Well done. *slow handclap*
 

Wij

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Still whataboutism :)

The exact argument from team brexit was that they wanted to take back sovereignty. The counter argument was that there was no loss of sovereignty by remaining anyway so there was nothing to take back.

Which is clearly bollocks. The rights or wrongs of a countries change to their law are irrelevant, the point is that the EU can demand that a sovereign state does or does not change their laws, with no democratic process.
Poland made a sovereign decision to join the EU. If it doesn’t like the fines imposed on it for not following the rules it signed up to in the first place it can make a sovereign decision to leave the EU.
 

DaGaffer

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Still whataboutism :)

The exact argument from team brexit was that they wanted to take back sovereignty. The counter argument was that there was no loss of sovereignty by remaining anyway so there was nothing to take back.

Which is clearly bollocks. The rights or wrongs of a countries change to their law are irrelevant, the point is that the EU can demand that a sovereign state does or does not change their laws, with no democratic process.
No democratic process from who? The EU? Or the Poles? The EU are enforcing the rules of their membership. The Poles are fully at liberty to leave if they don't like it. That's the sovereignty the Poles have. Seriously if anyone is engaging in whataboutery here, its you.
 

Wij

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Bloody mortgage company impinging on my sovereignty by telling me I have to make my payments when I don’t want to.
 

Raven

Happy Shopper Ray Mears
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No democratic process from who? The EU? Or the Poles? The EU are enforcing the rules of their membership. The Poles are fully at liberty to leave if they don't like it. That's the sovereignty the Poles have. Seriously if anyone is engaging in whataboutery here, its you.
One could almost say that is the decision we took to get back our sovereignty then, by leaving. (again, ignoring the rights or wrongs of laws that may or may not be created)
 

Scouse

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The counter argument was that there was no loss of sovereignty by remaining anyway so there was nothing to take back.
I still don't recognise this argument, which seems to be the foundation of all your pointlessness. - people said the little we would gain would mean we lose a fuckload - which has been borne out.

The Poles exercised their sovreignity and signed up to the EU. They now have to follow the rules or they leave. Simple.
 

Raven

Happy Shopper Ray Mears
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No, again, it seems to be a you problem.

People argued that we could take back our sovereignty, by leaving
Other people said that was not true because we had it already, it was never taken away.
Poland want to change a law (doesn't matter what the law is) and the EU have said that they can't, ergo they have no sovereignty.
We left, we got our sovereignty back, as in we can make whatever decision we like (whether the decision is right or wrong is irrelevant) To be able to make a decision on their own state they would have to also leave the EU, to take that sovereignty back.
 

Scouse

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People argued that we could take back our sovereignty, by leaving
Yep. I (reluctantly) went along with that too. Although it's a massive oversimplification and idiot sloganisation of the actual reality. But idiots love slogans, so that's what we went with, even though it's a terrible description.

As usual, semantics (being the study of meaning) don't hold up if you look at that slogan.
Other people said that was not true because we had it already, it was never taken away.
We voluntarily gave some of our powers to the EU (they was never "taken") on the proviso that we could exercise them as part of a pool. Not only that, that whole thing was kind of our idea in the first place. So no, nothing was taken away. (And I don't recall anyone saying anything different). What we did get by leaving the club was the ability to exercise those powers outside of a pool. Poland have that same right.

The people who said we'd not lost our sovreignity were techincally correct. If you don't have the ability to leave you're not soverign. But we always did. To be soverign is to be "the supreme ruler in your own territory". And we always were - we were voluntarily participating in a European project for mutual advantage and we could leave at any time. (Which we exercised our soverign right to do).

But idiot sloganism...
Poland want to change a law (doesn't matter what the law is) and the EU have said that they can't, ergo they have no sovereignty.
Incorrect. "No sovereignty" is a false representation of the situation.

Poland joined a club in the same way that we did. They now want to not play by the rules they agreed to. Their sovereign right is to leave the EU or play by the fucking rules they agreed to. It's totally up to them. In the same way it was for us. It's not that we "lacked sovereignty" it's that we had voluntarily agreed to abide by some laws.
We left, we got our sovereignty back, as in we can make whatever decision we like (whether the decision is right or wrong is irrelevant) To be able to make a decision on their own state they would have to also leave the EU, to take that sovereignty back.
We never really didn't have sovereignty - and didn't really get it back. This is the problem with idiot oversimiplifcations. What we got back was unilateral decision making on some things. But, as a soverign country, we always had the ability to retrieve that.

(And we've made mostly fucking dumb decisions ever since really)
 
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