Politics So...Europe then?

[Job]

Not arsed...holidaying at home this year.

 

[BloodOmen]

He's back again

 

[caLLous]

Also, Andrew Neil having a bit of fun at Gove's expense.

 

[Rubber Bullets]

Pesky FTSE ruining everyones fun by returning to highest since 2011.

Not sure where you're getting your figures. FTSE 100 is lower than it was last August and FTSE 250 hasn't got back to where it was before the referendum.

But yes they've both recovered well. Do you believe that proves that coming out of Europe was the right thing to do? Fluctuation is what happens in the markets, it's where they are in 5 or 10 years that is important.

 

[TdC]

Not sure where you're getting your figures. FTSE 100 is lower than it was last August and FTSE 250 hasn't got back to where it was before the referendum.

But yes they've both recovered well. Do you believe that proves that coming out of Europe was the right thing to do? Fluctuation is what happens in the markets, it's where they are in 5 or 10 years that is important.

Job would never let a little thing like a fact or an expert's conclusion cloud his opinions

ahem

 

[Scouse]

He's back again

@Bodhi - he makes a number of points that directly rebuff many of your arguments on leave and the funding accusation you made.

I do notice that not a lot of people are commenting on his vids around here...

 

[Moriath]

Experts know little more than us mortals. Fact.

 

[Ormorof]

If they are in fact experts in their field then they probably know a lot more about their subject than we do

Otherwise they would not be considered experts, you can disagree with their opinions, but if what they are proposing is a theory based on evidence then disagreeing with them purely because they are called experts is kinda retarded

 

[Job]

FTSE 100 enjoys best week since 2011 and bond yields hit record lows on post-Brexit stimulus hopes

Misread that..it was the highest rise since 2011.

Voting to leave was the biggest favour we did the EU and ourselves since the Battle of Britain.
Generation me are still dooming it out based on money, regardless of the fact little has happened, it is a week that changed the EU from self obsessed complacency into a far more aware population, these are epic political times, the people in power are trying their very best to water it down, but the people are watching.

 

[Raven]

If they are in fact experts in their field then they probably know a lot more about their subject than we do

Otherwise they would not be considered experts, you can disagree with their opinions, but if what they are proposing is a theory based on evidence then disagreeing with them purely because they are called experts is kinda retarded

Quite right. But there are "experts" on the other side too, with often equally compelling theory/evidence, so it is up to the individual to make up their own mind...or in this case theory (Nobody really knows what the next 1, 5, 10 years will be like) it is up to the future to decide.

People can either make themselves ill through worrying over something they have no control over or get over it and move on.

 

[caLLous]

Quite right. But there are "experts" on the other side too

There was *much* more evidence-based information (from more pertinent sources) on one side than the other and the default response of the Remain side when confronted with opposing evidence wasn't "lol what do experts know anyway". The fact that Gove came out and bemoaned "experts" says that they didn't have as many in their corner as Remain did.

 

[Scouse]

Experts know little more than us mortals. Fact.

You're a flat-earther. Fact.

You can tell that you @Raven and @Bodhi haven't watched his two videos because the responses you give and the posts you continue to make don't in any way relate to the topics he discusses - which aren't financial or economic but matters of verifiable objective fact.

 

[Raven]

Yes yes, all very interesting but "experts" are wrong all the time (see the financial crash) you shouldn't just sit there and accept what you are told.

Remember, experts led us into a second Iraq war and the invasion of Libya and look how that region turned out...also a contributing factor to what is wrong with the EU, the mismanagement and politicising of refugees. For fucks sake we are at economic war with Russia due to an ever desperate land grab by the EU...Turkey ffs...yes you can claim they won't get in, that's bollocks, ofc they will get in.

At the end of the day nobody knows what will happen, anyone who claims to know for certain is a liar or an idiot. For all we know (and it seems to be the case) the unelected leaders of the EU will go balls deep into further federalisation* and alienate even more people, the right wing parties are surging all across Europe, I am glad we can pull out without right wing politicians gaining all that much traction. On balance we are in a fairly good position, we are a strong economy that has a huge amount to offer, not only to the EU but the rest of the world, a world virtually shut out by a protectionist EU. I voted remain but the more things that come out of the EU the more I am leaning towards it being the right decision, in the long run.


*as I have said many times, I would love a federal EU state but in its current form, lead by corrupt or failed politicians, with its current loldemocracy, its broken and they have absolutely no will to fix it, so fuck'um.

 

[Embattle]

What does it matter now.

 

[caLLous]

Well it actually matters a hell of a lot because the country is about to get dragged through years of uncertainty and financial hardship based on a Leave campaign filled to the brim with verifiable bullshit.

 

[Scouse]

@Raven proving my point by ranting on stuff that isn't related to the content being talked about. Thanks.


And @Moriath (and @Raven) - just sayin'...

 

[Raven]

What rant, what are you talking about?

 

[Scouse]

Too hard for you to click on links and put two-and-obvious-two together?

 

[Embattle]

Well it actually matters a hell of a lot because the country is about to get dragged through years of uncertainty and financial hardship based on a Leave campaign filled to the brim with verifiable bullshit.

I guess you might have some issues in France, personally I still say it doesn't matter now the referendum is over and must be dealt with as it now happens.

 

[Scouse]

must be dealt with as it now happens

Interesting. Because that standpoint means you absolutely cannot exclude the possibility of, for example, a second referendum as the indications are that large swathes of the leave camp feel betrayed and would vote the opposite if given the opportunity.

All sorts of things now happening, again, today.

Democracy in action. And you love democracy, don't you? It was one of the biggest points made by Leavers...

 

[Job]

Pfff, thousands.
I won't be impressed till they start shooting.

The Poll tax riots were a good example of rioting by people who cant be punished by ordinary means, it changed government policy on the spot.

 

[Raven]

Too hard for you to click on links and put two-and-obvious-two together?

You realise this thread covers all sorts of aspects of Brexit? I don't even know what video you are talking about, nor do I care.

 

[caLLous]

Probably the only video on this page...

 

[Raven]

...and? Presumed it to be some inange meme.

Actually clicked it now, 22 minutes of terrible sound quality...no ta.

 

[caLLous]

Weird, I understood every word (surely the most important part of a video of somebody talking). It's almost like you're going out of your way to find an excuse not to watch it.

 

[~Yuckfou~]

 

[Gwadien]

 

[Raven]

Weird, I understood every word (surely the most important part of a video of somebody talking). It's almost like you're going out of your way to find an excuse not to watch it.

I don't need an excuse. Its 22 minutes. On a Saturday. About something tedious. I have better things to do with my time. Not all of us are still sat in front of a PC in our underpants.

 

[Bodhi]

@Bodhi - he makes a number of points that directly rebuff many of your arguments on leave and the funding accusation you made.

I do notice that not a lot of people are commenting on his vids around here...

Personally, I would have thought if he was as impartial as he claims to be, then he would have brought up the many lies, half truths and misrepresentations from the other side too, as independent commentators tend to do. By the way I have absolutely no issue with him nailing his colours to one side of the debate, but he should drop any pretence of being "independent", when clearly he isn't.

But a few points that I picked up before I got the impression I was watching a bitter Remain campaigner:

The 2/3rds of laws coming from Brussels part - Must admit I fundamentally disgree with him on this point, as the lower figure he is quoting completely ignores EU Regulations that don't actually require any additional UK legislation to become law. I really do fail to see how you can discount these without misrepresenting the data, which is ironic given how much of a bee in his bonnet he seems to have about that. Either way, pretty much everyone agrees, legislation passed at the EU level has a pretty significant effect here in the UK.

The Democracy angle - He seems to claim the EU is some paragon of democracy and accountability, when in reality there are still some serious issues there. Fullfact has a pretty balanced view on it, however my issue with it always was - I disapprove of Jean Claude Juncker - how do I get rid of him? I would have thought a Leave vote would have gone some way towards moving him on, but no, he still appears to be there, and there is bugger all we can do about it - whereas if we decide we don't like the PM very much we have a much better chance of getting rid.
There is also there the EU's love of re-running a referendum until they get the right answer (Ireland springs to mind here), or completely ignoring the referendum altogether (Hi France!).

Can't say I share his optimism that Turkey won't be joining in our lfietimes. We've already seen the hardcore eye-fluttering going on between the two parties, with contribution discussions kicked off and Visa Free Movement already in the works - I would have thought if meeting the criteria was so key, then the discussion would be about what Turkey was doing to arrange this, but then with Greece we've seen what happens when countries don't meet criteria - it gets fudged. It's already one of the EU's key strategies - to promote the accession of the Balkan States and Turkey.

Anyway for me, an awful lot of this is garnish. For the Referendum I simply based on a decision of who do I want to be ultimately running the country - Brussels or Westminster. For all their faults, I went with Westminster. This was my decision and I stand by it, depsite all the rather pathetic attempts to deligitimise this point of view (racist idiot, you didn't know what you were voting for, etc etc). It needs to be remembered that more people voted to Leave the EU than have voted for anything else in the history of the UK. Maybe once the Incredible Sulk has finished, we can get on with making that decision a success, no?

 

[Job]

It's not about numbers of laws, probably most of EU dictats are perfectly sensible, it's purely the fact that they have the final say, it's not that they do, but that they can.
It just gobsmacks me that people are happy with EU courts being able to overide every court in the EU.
While democracy is hanging on by it's teeth now, the future is non existant for it, it will be removed from individual states...it has to be removed or the EU can never be more than a ragtag of squabbling countries.
That professor is just pedantically rambling on about things that are not even the issue, they are just soundbite popular myths used by politicians to confuse the uneducated, and he knows that, he's the political version of a grammar nazi.
The EU wants to destroy individual states, it wants EU wide taxation, it wants EU wide everything...I personally think that is the road to hell and I am so pleased we voted the way we did and gave people who feel the same way across the EU a voice.