Politics So...Europe then?

[TdC]

Idislike the word expert without the qualifying what makes him an expert. And what makes his view better than others. Experts can be easy to find.

in this case I was speaking generally of (creditable) experts. every one has worked for, studied at (and/or studied under), been funded by, etc, a person or body who could be construed as to unduly influence them. the reason that creditable experts are creditable is that this can be shown to not be the case. naturally all kinds of shenanigans have gone and will go on in the future. if we hold the fact that this has happened against (all) experts, then nobody can be trusted to tell us the truth. unfortunately, the telling of untruths, half truths and bare faced lies has somehow become a valid (political) tactic, as well as doing one's best to discredit the other party (like heavily implying that they'll be pro-EU as their field is financed partially by EU scholarly funding).

edit; also, I have no idea if that fellow is or is not pro-EU because of his funding. I just took offence as Bods immediately implied he must be.

 

[Moriath]

How about these guys? Experts enough for you?
Nobel prize-winning economists warn of long-term damage after Brexit

They are economists but what is their experise in some thing that has never happened? Its all conjecture.

 

[Scouse]

They are economists but what is their experise in some thing that has never happened? Its all conjecture.

Watch the fucking video @Moriath. What you are saying is at odds with what he says in the video - he's not in the prediction business and clearly states that. He only talks around the evidence of what actually exists now and the effects of these things...

Or, alternatively, keep spouting without challenging yourself.

 

[Gwadien]

EXCLUSIVE: Notorious Anjem Choudary Backs 'Remain' – Says EU Courts Are Softer On His Islamist Friends

I've made my mind up!

Funny how some Brexiters have responded to this; 'Just shows the thinking of the In campaigners, They all agree with Anjem Choudary!!!!!!!!!!!!'

 

[Moriath]

Watch the fucking video @Moriath. What you are saying is at odds with what he says in the video - he's not in the prediction business and clearly states that. He only talks around the evidence of what actually exists now and the effects of these things...

Or, alternatively, keep spouting without challenging yourself.

Nah i like making you mad.

 

[Gwadien]

I've made my final decision.

In.

Frankly, it all comes down to the types of people voting, people are voting out for the most ludicrous reasons and do not fully understand what they are voting for.

I refuse to vote for a campaign which is propped up by little Englander inward looking and xenophobia.

 

[Moriath]

I've made my final decision.

In.

Frankly, it all comes down to the types of people voting, people are voting out for the most ludicrous reasons and do not fully understand what they are voting for.

I refuse to vote for a campaign which is propped up by little Englander inward looking and xenophobia.

And yet there are as many people voting in that dont understand what they are voting for either.

 

[Gwadien]

And yet there are as many people voting in that dont understand what they are voting for either.

I don't think it's much to understand voting in means you're voting for what ever is going on now.

 

[Moriath]

I don't think it's much to understand voting in means you're voting for what ever is going on now.

Not reallly. Your voting for what happens iin the future as much as out. Justt. Kidding yourself that the current situation will remain.

 

[Job]

I've made my final decision.

In.

Frankly, it all comes down to the types of people voting, people are voting out for the most ludicrous reasons and do not fully understand what they are voting for.

I refuse to vote for a campaign which is propped up by little Englander inward looking and xenophobia.

You call that litte englander xenophobia, it was also the number one topic on that political debate between the two camps, we also suffer from social status bigotry, the lower the social class, the less their facts matter.
There is nothing on that printout that isn't true, setting up camps and suggesting the entire country want's to come here is obviously a bit ridiculous, but why belittle a reasonable argument.

 

[Raven]

I don't think it's much to understand voting in means you're voting for what ever is going on now.

Actually, you are not. The EU will go full steam ahead with all sorts of crazy bollocks (Turkey's admission to the EU, just one of them) an extremely shifty trade deal with America (I don't care who the main instigators are, its horse shit regardless) and yet more meddling in things they have no place meddling with.

I am voting remain too though, but we have one hell of a fight on our hands with the impending shit from the EU. I am voting in for the simple reason of an easier life at work. My job is to import stuff from foreign countries, its a ball ache from America which makes up about 5% of my workload, I would rather the other 95% was still easy.

Hopefully all the crap will galvanise the people to start voting for strong leaders, not pig fucker and co.

 

[DaGaffer]

Actually, you are not. The EU will go full steam ahead with all sorts of crazy bollocks (Turkey's admission to the EU, just one of them) an extremely shifty trade deal with America (I don't care who the main instigators are, its horse shit regardless) and yet more meddling in things they have no place meddling with.

I am voting remain too though, but we have one hell of a fight on our hands with the impending shit from the EU. I am voting in for the simple reason of an easier life at work. My job is to import stuff from foreign countries, its a ball ache from America which makes up about 5% of my workload, I would rather the other 95% was still easy.

Hopefully all the crap will galvanise the people to start voting for strong leaders, not pig fucker and co.

Please stop talking about Turkish accession like its a fact. Its not, and its chances are getting further away, not closer. There is a veto (despite what some Tory leavers have claimed, there is), and there is a VERY long list of EU members who will use it.

 

[Raven]

So why even bother cozying up to them then? Why even bother offering them free movement?

Get outta'town. The EU want them in because that's all they do now, keep expanding until they die just like any other empire, ever.

 

[DaGaffer]

So why even bother cozying up to them then? Why even bother offering them free movement?

Get outta'town. The EU want them in because that's all they do now, keep expanding until they die just like any other empire, ever.

Because it was a quid pro quo for Turkey holding on to the largest refugee population on the entire planet and not just shipping them all on to Europe.

There was definitely a time, not that long ago, when the EU wanted Turkey in. A major market and young population, and legally secular. That has all changed in the last five years. Any government in Europe that doesn't exercise a veto over Turkey, and I do mean pretty much all of them, would find themselves out on their arse the next time there was an election. Turkey is election poison now, and will continue to be so as long as Erdogan is in power. It only takes one country to exercise the veto (this is the issue Scotland refused to accept, despite it actually being demonstrated by Kosovo's attempts to join), and in the case of Turkey, Greek and Cypriot vetoes alone would be enough, but France and Germany have also said no, as has Jean-Claude Juncker, and it was even an election promise of his when he stood for election to president of the Commission.

 

[caLLous]

And Boris was one of the loudest proponents of Turkey joining. How things change.

 

[Bodhi]

If you bothered watching the video you'd have seen that he presents his credentials. And "experts" aren't easy to find - most people claim to be them, most, like Gillian McKeith, aren't.

@Bodhi - nice "evidence-based" argument there m8

Erasmus+ - Jean Monnet - Chair - EACEA - European Commission

And who holds the Jean Monnet chair at Liverpool Uni?

Michael Dougan - Liverpool Law School - University of Liverpool

So as I said, hardly the most impartial voice in the whole thing.

 

[Bodhi]

in this case I was speaking generally of (creditable) experts. every one has worked for, studied at (and/or studied under), been funded by, etc, a person or body who could be construed as to unduly influence them. the reason that creditable experts are creditable is that this can be shown to not be the case. naturally all kinds of shenanigans have gone and will go on in the future. if we hold the fact that this has happened against (all) experts, then nobody can be trusted to tell us the truth. unfortunately, the telling of untruths, half truths and bare faced lies has somehow become a valid (political) tactic, as well as doing one's best to discredit the other party (like heavily implying that they'll be pro-EU as their field is financed partially by EU scholarly funding).

edit; also, I have no idea if that fellow is or is not pro-EU because of his funding. I just took offence as Bods immediately implied he must be.

See above, there was no implication at all. He does take EU finding, 10 seconds on Google finds that.

 

[Scouse]

So as I said, hardly the most impartial voice in the whole thing.

£16k/annum which helps funds a teaching post at a university. What riches!!

None of which disqualifies him from making statements of fact. Facts as they currently stand without conjecture. Which, if you'd bothered watching, you'd see is all he does.

Better than a journo, who claims to be Marxist but is actually far-right, vocally supports racism and despises gays, who clearly isn't any sort of expert on European law, structure or history.

Your blinkered denial of real and actual expert analysis makes me wonder if Sony backs brexit.

 

[Raven]

There we go. Only takes a few posts for Scouse to get personal.

 

[Marc]

Ive voted remain. Just to troll all the idiots on facebook in their hundreds who are voting out because "It will stop the muslims innit"

 

[Bodhi]

£16k/annum which helps funds a teaching post at a university. What riches!!

None of which disqualifies him from making statements of fact. Facts as they currently stand without conjecture. Which, if you'd bothered watching, you'd see is all he does.

Better than a journo, who claims to be Marxist but is actually far-right, vocally supports racism and despises gays, who clearly isn't any sort of expert on European law, structure or history.

Your blinkered denial of real and actual expert analysis makes me wonder if Sony backs brexit.

I shall ignore the personal attack as I think you're better than that.

Actually no, that's bullshit. I'm better than that.

It kind of does disqualify him ever so slightly, as the first "fact" he came out with - "I am an independent expert" was patently false. He does go on to make some good points, sadly he reverts to "look how difficult it will be to leave", rather than - "look how great things will be if we stay".

However Mr Dougan makes the classic mistake of dressing some of his opinions up as fact - such as his views on the Norway option (which the Norweigians think is such a bad deal they are breaking the EU's door down to join - oh, hang on) - and his deep deep love of the Single Market, which is apparently a single set of rules governing trade anywhere in the EU. However anyone who's actually done business in the EU, such as that bloke who has done a thing or two with vacuum cleaners, know that that isn't the case at all. Each country in the EU still has it's own contracts, it's own regulations on things like data location and security, and everything still has to be done on a country by country basis.

“They have different languages which, for an exporter, means that everything from the box to the instruction manual has to be in a different language. The plugs are different. The laws are different. It’s not a single market.

But then what would he know, his business only sells into the bloody thing. He clearly knows less than someone from academia.

However the spiked article had nothing to do with Dougan's speech at all. It was more an observational piece on how an awful lot of the anti-establishment bien-pensant set who live in Islington and read the Guardian a lot, seem to have sided with the Establishment in this case - and I noticed some wonderful parallels with some of the positions taken on this thread. Obviously cut a bit close to the bone however, given you stomping off onto Wikipedia to try to discredit the guy who owns the website, without actually reading any further than Wiki (I'll give you a hint he isn't anti-gay marriage in the slightest, he's anti-censorship, nothing more, nothing less).

 

[Moriath]

There we go. Only takes a few posts for Scouse to get personal.

Kinda easy to wind him up. Bit of a sport these days.

 

[Yoni]

In my view trying to draw correlations either way between UK and Norway is not ok. Norway for years has been underpinned by their oil... Now due to the oil crisis the cracks are beginning to show... The U.K. from what I can understand is in some trouble both from an economy PoV and also at it's core... The result either way is going to be problematic for the UK.... The most disturbing part of this entire debate has been the behaviour of most of the politicians ie those people we put our faith in to run the country..... How on earth did it get to the point where idiots like Farage have such a big influence... Why is it that of all the nations I have represented in my 'social group' British citizens are the only ones where intelligent normally well balanced individuals would rather succumb to 1st world war Nazi propaganda (because said sites have used injured soldiers benefits vs immigrant benefits, even when such claims have been proved to be half truths) than think for themselves or educate themselves in detail of both points of view.... I left the UK 8 years ago... I can tell all of those who want to leave Europe one thing that I have experienced in the last 8 years... Life outside GB is so much better (Work life balance, medical care etc etc) ... Imagine how much worse GB will be without EU influence?

 

[ECA]

View: https://twitter.com/frankieboyle/status/744894433355771904

 

[Gwadien]

I think this sums up my view on this referendum.

 

[Raven]

That would be dead clever if it was true.

 

[Gwadien]

That would be dead clever if it was true.

It is true.

 

[Raven]

No it isn't.

There were no redundancies made among GPs.

Its probably true that not enough have been recruited to meet the increased demand but you don't just magic them out of thin air.

 

[Fweddy]

I think this sums up my view on this referendum.

I think this is missing an 'n' or two.

 

[Gwadien]

No it isn't.

There were no redundancies made among GPs.

Its probably true that not enough have been recruited to meet the increased demand but you don't just magic them out of thin air.

No, Since the birth of the NHS, successive Governments have been spending more and more and more and more and more and more money on infrastructure and public services, such as the NHS, Schools and Housing.

We now live in a period of austerity where our Governments have slashed budgets, or 'ring fenced' them - However, ring fencing budgets isn't good enough.

Yes, I understand that Labour wasted too much, however, there appears to be no middle ground, it's either too much or too little.