Politics So...Europe then?

[Scouse]

The EU sets a minimum level of VAT which currently sits at 15% and is a requirement for membership.

And we run at 20%.

Less pollution is good but it should be our country that determines our limits and timescales.

Disagree wholeheartedly. We're one of the worst offenders and pollution costs lives - and when it's not resulting in premature deaths it's debilitating to the NHS - costing uk.consumer hard in the pocket.

Our government wants out of the EU regulations on air quality - but the EU is protecting the British public's health and welfare through mechanisms and legislation that we willingly signed up to before they became inconvenient.

the fuck should some cunt in Brussels tell me I cannot purchase a 2KW hoover? I pay for the electricity I use, don't need to be treated like a fucking child.

You're complaining over an energy efficiency triviality. The EU is enacting environmental legislation to help with the problem above and yet we are acting like children because boo-hoo our hoovers use a little less electricity.

Sounds like we need a spanking to me.

I have never voted for an MEP of any country.

I agree with you 100% that the EU needs a lot more democratic reform. But I think we need tighter integration to go hand in hand. More democratic control AND more joined-up thinking. Otherwise what's the point?

 

[Ormorof]

The EU sets a minimum level of VAT which currently sits at 15% and is a requirement for membership.
I know the British farmers get CAP subsidies but what about the mountains of food that has to be destroyed? That is due to EU bollocks.
Less pollution is good but it should be our country that determines our limits and timescales. Why the fuck should some cunt in Brussels tell me I cannot purchase a 2KW hoover? I pay for the electricity I use, don't need to be treated like a fucking child.
I have never voted for an MEP of any country.

Perhaps if you (and the ~40% of the EU population ) that never bothered voting for MEPs had voted for reformers rather than sticking your head in the sand then complaining when things dont go your way the EU would be in better shape and we could have avoided a lot of the bureaucratic crap that is universally unpopular in the EU

 

[Deebs]

And we run at 20%.

Disagree wholeheartedly. We're one of the worst offenders and pollution costs lives - and when it's not resulting in premature deaths it's debilitating to the NHS - costing uk.consumer hard in the pocket.

Our government wants out of the EU regulations on air quality - but the EU is protecting the British public's health and welfare through mechanisms and legislation that we willingly signed up to before they became inconvenient.

You're complaining over an energy efficiency triviality. The EU is enacting environmental legislation to help with the problem above and yet we are acting like children because boo-hoo our hoovers use a little less electricity.

Sounds like we need a spanking to me.

I agree with you 100% that the EU needs a lot more democratic reform. But I think we need tighter integration to go hand in hand. More democratic control AND more joined-up thinking. Otherwise what's the point?

Yeh but you are a eco green warrior out to save the universe so will always have a different view to me. Like @Big G said, rational dialogue is not going to sway the public vote either in or out. Most have already made their minds up and I suspect the older generation will want out, the younger in.

I am not complaining over an energy efficiency triviality. It is about choice, what is next? Ban the halogen lightbulb? Oh wait it is coming... It is the amount of stupidity in the EU that fucks me off, some twats sitting around a room thinking what the daftest thing we can put into law and then doing it. Fuck off.

The EU needs a massive democratic redesign but it is engineered that that will be highly unlikely to ever happen due to the various agreements that all states need to agree, Germany is king, France is Prince and everyone else is a pawn. I am not interested, I would rather be the master of my own destiny and fuckup on my own without outside interference.

 

[Deebs]

Perhaps if you (and the ~40% of the EU population ) that never bothered voting for MEPs had voted for reformers rather than sticking your head in the sand then complaining when things dont go your way the EU would be in better shape and we could have avoided a lot of the bureaucratic crap that is universally unpopular in the EU

Perhaps if another generation had been told the truth about what the EU is and was all about they would not have voted such closer ties. I have not stuck my head in the sand but quietly waited for an opportunity to make my vote be heard, and heard it will be.

 

[Scouse]

I am not complaining over an energy efficiency triviality. It is about choice, what is next? Ban the halogen lightbulb? Oh wait it is coming... It is the amount of stupidity in the EU that fucks me off, some twats sitting around a room thinking what the daftest thing we can put into law and then doing it. Fuck off.

The hoover thing is a triviality. But I do see where you're coming from on choice.

But then, a lot of people would never have chosen to remove lead from petrol (banning it as an additive was staunchly resisted for a long time) - I remember it being incredibly controversial and a lot of people moaned about that. Despite them being completely and utterly wrong.

Demanding that our products are energy efficient is palpably not the "daftest thing we can put into law". It's eminently rational and sensible.

The fact that the hoover argument has been brought up is because there's no rational argument that beats the energy efficiency one - so someone sat about and figured out the "daftest emotive argument we can think of" because rational intellectualism fails them.

I would rather be the master of my own destiny and fuckup on my own without outside interference.

In or out of the EU you're not going to be master of your own destiny. In fact, I'd argue the obvious - that if the right get their way and we leave the EU you'll find the UK gets saddled with a regressive, uncaring authoritarian streak a mile wide.

 

[DaGaffer]

Abolishment of imperial measurements
Setting the VAT level
Subsidising EU farmers leading to massive amounts of food being destroyed
Setting levels on pollution, energy, the power of my hoover
etc

I am not against a free trade environment and welcome that, it is the twats in Brussels that impose things on us which are irrelevant to the country I live in. As of this time I will be voting out until much clearer facts are presented by both sides of the coin. I want this country to be governed by the Government I elected directly.

There are loads of VAT rates across the EU that are below 15%. The U.K. has control over VAT to the extent that any EU influence is invisible/irrelevant.

Metric measures started to come into the UK before the UK joined the EU.

The CAP is certainly an issue, but is it worth losing sleep over?

Completely disagree about pollution regs, but to be clear, to trade with the EU freely the UK would have to comply with them anyway, just like Norway and Switzerland

 

[Wij]

The CAP is certainly an issue, but is it worth losing sleep over?

I can't remember all the daft things I've heard that CAP causes through unintended consequence so I'll have a read of this for a start:

Common Agricultural Policy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Zarjazz]

Completely disagree about pollution regs, but to be clear, to trade with the EU freely the UK would have to comply with them anyway, just like Norway and Switzerland

And it's not like things have been going so well for Switzerland outside the EU - EU referendum: Can Switzerland show UK route to Brexit? - BBC News

The Erasmus ban was news to me. If the UK did the same that would be a huge loss.

 

[Gwadien]

So like
EU exit would risk jobs, says group of business bosses - BBC News

 

[Raven]

Headline is deceiving.

Should read "says 1/3rd of bosses"

 

[Scouse]

Headline is deceiving.

I don't think so. It's says a "group of bosses", which is accurate.

It's encumbant on the "out" campaign to come up with a similar sized group if they want to counter that. Not all firms are happy to make political statements y'know, so you're unlikely to even get "most"...

 

[Deebs]

We all know that exiting the United States of Europe is going to cost jobs in the UK, that is a given. For me the issue is the bureaucracy and waste of money being paid to unelected officials with nothing better to do than make up stupid laws and introduce more red tape. Surely, to make the worlds best/most efficient/biggest economy you would be reducing shit not introducing more of it?

Seriously, even if we stay in we will not be able to influence much going forward, all our favours are now gone, we have never been seen as serious in the EU as we simply do not use the Euro as a currency and do not want a closer union. These two things are the foundation of many as being seen as "British".

For that reason, I am OUT.

 

[DaGaffer]

We all know that exiting the United States of Europe is going to cost jobs in the UK, that is a given. For me the issue is the bureaucracy and waste of money being paid to unelected officials with nothing better to do than make up stupid laws and introduce more red tape. Surely, to make the worlds best/most efficient/biggest economy you would be reducing shit not introducing more of it?

Seriously, even if we stay in we will not be able to influence much going forward, all our favours are now gone, we have never been seen as serious in the EU as we simply do not use the Euro as a currency and do not want a closer union. These two things are the foundation of many as being seen as "British".

For that reason, I am OUT.

We've discussed this on here before; EU bureaucracy is a red-herring; the rules actually reduce costs of trading across the community; in the US, which should effectively be one market, it actually isn't because local State laws set their own problems and you end up spending more in legal costs.

 

[Deebs]

We've discussed this on here before; EU bureaucracy is a red-herring; the rules actually reduce costs of trading across the community; in the US, which should effectively be one market, it actually isn't because local State laws set their own problems and you end up spending more in legal costs.

What I wrote is not just me but I suspect a major part of the British public who can vote. When I speak to many of my friends around my age about Europe it always comes back to "them" being able to fuck about with our laws without us being able to stop them.

The IN camp have a lot of work to do, as do the OUT. For me, until I see some compelling factual advice on why I should change my mind, I am still OUT.

 

[DaGaffer]

What I wrote is not just me but I suspect a major part of the British public who can vote. When I speak to many of my friends around my age about Europe it always comes back to "them" being able to fuck about with our laws without us being able to stop them.

The IN camp have a lot of work to do, as do the OUT. For me, until I see some compelling factual advice on why I should change my mind, I am still OUT.

In my entire life I can think of only one occasion when an EU rule affected me negatively at a personal level, and that was when the banks brought in SEPA a couple of years ago and managed to fuck up my salary going in on time for a couple of months,; but even then it wasn't actually the EU, it was an incompetent British bank that had outsourced it's IT department to part trained chimps.

Other than that, nothing, and I'm conveniently not dead in a European war largely thanks to the EU, so on balance, I'm happy with the status quo and not being shelled by Germans thing.

 

[Scouse]

I get that you're out @Deebs - but all of the reasons you've given for wanting out (bar the CAP) don't really seem to exist / have no real effect.

I'm conveniently not dead in a European war largely thanks to the EU, so on balance, I'm happy with the status quo and not being shelled by Germans thing.

This is my reason for wanting "ever closer integration", not just with the EU - but the rest of the world.

Fuck sovreignity - if one thing's been proven over history it's that governments start wars - and if you've got a big collection of small governments (like in the US) under a federal banner then it's win on the not-bombing-your-neighbours-for-stupid-reasons (like hoover wattage) front.

 

[Deebs]

I get that you're out @Deebs - but all of the reasons you've given for wanting out (bar the CAP) don't really seem to exist / have no real effect.

Not to you, but to me they do. Difference of opinion and perception.

 

[Embattle]

I agree with you 100% that the EU needs a lot more democratic reform. But I think we need tighter integration to go hand in hand. More democratic control AND more joined-up thinking. Otherwise what's the point?

Which isn't going to happen since it would be like turkeys voting for Christmas.

 

[Scouse]

Which isn't going to happen since it would be like turkeys voting for Christmas.

Still better than handing even more power to a government that wants to scrap the human rights act that it was instrumental in introducing after a global war, started in europe not all that long ago, that killed tens of millions.

Our governments can't be trusted. Neither can the EU - but at least it's one big fish to keep an eye on rather than trying to figure out who's going to go postal in a shoal of minnows.

 

[DaGaffer]

Yes it does. You're entitled to your own opinion, but you're making an incredibly arrogant assumption that the generic public will do their detailed homework on the subject where a significant chunk (as per Job) will take a Farage stance of "I WANT OUT BECAUSE BROWN PEOPLE".

Like the Scottish indyref, it didn't matter a fucking squirt what evidence you put in front of Scottish nationalists that it was a bad / good idea, they wanted "rid of they cunts at Westminster". Likewise with the EU ref, people want "rid of those unelected cunts in Brussels", so you're wasting your time with your intellectual reasoning and arguments.

But that wasn't your argument. Your argument was "would you join now? That should help you make the decision". My view is that shouldn't help you make the decision because its ignoring half the equation. What joe fuckwit will actually do when they're making the choice is irrelevant, I was pointing out the problem with your advice. Because its wrong.

 

[Gwadien]

It's a bit like looking at your mrs on a bad day and saying 'Would I be with you if I saw you in a bar tonight?'

 

[old.user4556]

But that wasn't your argument. Your argument was "would you join now? That should help you make the decision". My view is that shouldn't help you make the decision because its ignoring half the equation. What joe fuckwit will actually do when they're making the choice is irrelevant, I was pointing out the problem with your advice. Because its wrong.

For the love of anal fuck, let me spell it out for your irritatingly pedantic ass, I said "it *should help*", I didn't say "IT CATEGORICALLY HELPS YOU MAKE AN ABSOLUTE CONCRETE DECISION, IGNORE EVERYTHING ELSE AND YEARS OF EU FINANCIAL RECORDS". I was merely trying to get a different angle into the thread which had become a bit of a "Scouse v Raven" fest, nothing more. Instead of being fucking annoying as per, let it fucking go?

 

[Scouse]

Aaaaaand breathe

Then vote "stay"

 

[DaGaffer]

For the love of anal fuck, let me spell it out for your irritatingly pedantic ass, I said "it *should help*", I didn't say "IT CATEGORICALLY HELPS YOU MAKE AN ABSOLUTE CONCRETE DECISION, IGNORE EVERYTHING ELSE AND YEARS OF EU FINANCIAL RECORDS". I was merely trying to get a different angle into the thread which had become a bit of a "Scouse v Raven" fest, nothing more. Instead of being fucking annoying as per, let it fucking go?

Fuck sake, it was terrible advice. So we should just say, "fair enough, retarded, obviously, but fine whatevs" Fuck that. If you say something stupid be prepared to be called on it. Half the problem with the whole fucking Brexit issue is people with stupid opinions not backed up by anything to do with common sense and you're recommending more of the same. If you don't want to have a debate, put me back on ignore. I don't care.

 

[Scouse]

Aaaaaand, netflix and chill?


Then vote "stay"

 

[old.user4556]

Fuck sake, it was terrible advice. So we should just say, "fair enough, retarded, obviously, but fine whatevs" Fuck that. If you say something stupid be prepared to be called on it. Half the problem with the whole fucking Brexit issue is people with stupid opinions not backed up by anything to do with common sense and you're recommending more of the same. If you don't want to have a debate, put me back on ignore. I don't care.

Stupid in your opinion? That's your fucking problem, you always think you're right and you'll act like a complete cunt about it. Do you ever look at what and how you post and think "wow, I'm actually a total cunt!" - because if you don't, you're wrong. And yes, time for ignore I think - you're a fucking bell-end pal.

 

[Scouse]

Chill you gays.


Aaaanyway: Amnesty has something interesting to say about the UK government...

 

[Gwadien]

I love it when G gets angry it turns me on.

I imagine he whips on his kilt with his broadsword and shows Gaffer his arse.

 

[Job]

Nuclear weapons have kept peace in Europe since the war, not the EU.
The EU is heading us to war by trying to rid itself of nationalism, this migrant influx is just the latest attempt.
The idiotic cure is going to kill the patient.

 

[DaGaffer]

Stupid in your opinion? That's your fucking problem, you always think you're right and you'll act like a complete cunt about it. Do you ever look at what and how you post and think "wow, I'm actually a total cunt!" - because if you don't, you're wrong. And yes, time for ignore I think - you're a fucking bell-end pal.

No, stupid because its objectively stupid you complete asshat. And I showed why. Its not my fault you're too stupid to understand how to frame an argument.