Politics So...Europe then?

[Raven]

When "reacting to posts" You have reacted negatively 12% of the time, 17000 ratings, nearly as many ratings as posts (19k) 2000 of which have been dislikes, facepalms or disagrees. That is obsessive behaviour.

You can facepalm me for bothering to work it out if you like. Probably warranted.

 

[DaGaffer]

Everything. You are arguing that a regime that wants to overthrow democratic choices made by a people is one that should be supported, because apparently it keeps the peace (until someone disagrees with it, but that's cool, right). Aside from the murdering of gypsies and Jews that is pretty much exactly what the Germans wanted in the 30s/40s, a unified, peaceful Europe. Should we have just backed down and allowed it because they were threatening violence? Get out of town.

Oh I'm sorry, what democratic choices made by people has the EU actually overthrown here? Spain is saying it wants a say on Gibraltar's status post-Brexit because it will have a hard border with a British territory that's also a tax haven. Its relationship with said tax haven was already difficult (because the place is the Mediterranean money-laundering hub) and will only get worse. The Tories chose to conveniently ignore reference to Gibraltar in the Article 50 submission, even though in practical terms it operates as a separate country with separate tax and trade. Spain hasn't once mentioned taking over the place; it has said it has a veto on the terms of the trade deal, and from a Spanish perspective that makes perfect sense. Its not "anti-democratic", its a foreign country asserting its domestic agenda.

Comparing it to the Nazis is utter horseshit, and besides when it comes to overthrowing democracies, people in glass houses...

 

[Scouse]

@Raven. I use the ratings system heavily. Give out likes, agrees, funnies all the time to a lot of people.

If you notice a correllation then it's because of that. And if you notice a negative correlation, it's because you talk shit or say nasty things - a lot.


But hey, even if you're right (you're not) at least I don't think that people shouldn't be responsible for their voting actions. If I've voted by facepalming that you're talking shite I stand by my decision, rather than pretend that I'm not responsible


Edit: @DaGaffer. Are you upset about the number of agrees I've given you recently? Or just a bit weirded out?

 

[Raven]

I just say things as they are. There is little point dressing it up.

 

[Raven]

Oh I'm sorry, what democratic choices made by people has the EU actually overthrown here? Spain is saying it wants a say on Gibraltar's status post-Brexit because it will have a hard border with a British territory that's also a tax haven. Its relationship with said tax haven was already difficult (because the place is the Mediterranean money-laundering hub) and will only get worse. The Tories chose to conveniently ignore reference to Gibraltar in the Article 50 submission, even though in practical terms it operates as a separate country with separate tax and trade. Spain hasn't once mentioned taking over the place; it has said it has a veto on the terms of the trade deal, and from a Spanish perspective that makes perfect sense. Its not "anti-democratic", its a foreign country asserting its domestic agenda.

Comparing it to the Nazis is utter horseshit, and besides when it comes to overthrowing democracies, people in glass houses...

Nonsense. What we do and what the people of Gibraltar do is none of Spain's business. If it is not ideal for Spain then Spain will either have to deal with it (or not) they certainly should not have a veto as a single country over any plans we have or the people of Gibraltar have. ofc they should be represented as part of the EU and EU interests but not as Spain and purely Spanish interests...especially territorial disputes. Don't pretend it is anything but a territorial dispute

The EU are taking advantage of something that has nothing to do with the EU, simply to be dicks...in week 1 of negotiation. So much for having a mature, adult, unaggressive set of talks.

 

[Scouse]

Regardless of how you feel about it @Raven - it was obvious it was going to happen if we voted for brexit - and that level of leverage is only possible because of Brexit.

This is ultimately the fault of those that voted for Brexit full in the knowledge that this would be just one of the results.

 

[Hawkwind]

Fuck Gibraltar becoming part of Spain, my offshore pension is based there!

Still won't be an issue, UK Company and they can easily move it to the future tax haven of UK after EU leaves it little alternative

 

[Hawkwind]

Regardless of how you feel about it @Raven - it was obvious it was going to happen if we voted for brexit - and that level of leverage is only possible because of Brexit.

This is ultimately the fault of those that voted for Brexit full in the knowledge that this would be just one of the results.

Watching (Sky News) idiot Brit pensioners living in Spain saying how Brexit was right then saying they are worried about their healthcare! Judging by the comments they voted leave. People who say that many were not educated enough on the subject to make a proper decision were right given these morons.

 

[Raven]

Perhaps if the remoaners didn't spend the entire debate throwing insults at everyone who disagreed or questioned them, it would have been different, and yes so did brexiters. People are too used to debating in echo chambers these days and are incapable of dealing with opposing views.

It was a collective decision, part of a collective decision is talking to people with opposing views round and winning them round.

 

[Scouse]

It was the Brexiteers who came up with the assault on "experts" when their expert advice turned out to be counter to their pulled-out-of-their-arse 'arguments' and trashed them when the force of their evidence started to have an effect.

You yourself have repeated that sort of thing. The result is that any old Job feels emboldened in their fuckwittery.

Some of the architects of Brexit have attempted to backtrack from this post-vote now that they realise what a pandora's box of ill-informed idiocy they've unleashed on the world.

 

[DaGaffer]

Nonsense. What we do and what the people of Gibraltar do is none of Spain's business. If it is not ideal for Spain then Spain will either have to deal with it (or not) they certainly should not have a veto as a single country over any plans we have or the people of Gibraltar have. ofc they should be represented as part of the EU and EU interests but not as Spain and purely Spanish interests...especially territorial disputes. Don't pretend it is anything but a territorial dispute

The EU are taking advantage of something that has nothing to do with the EU, simply to be dicks...in week 1 of negotiation. So much for having a mature, adult, unaggressive set of talks.

Of course it has something to do with the EU. Its a hard border into a tax haven. Its a pretty unique situation, but the nearest parallel would be France and Monaco where the relationship between Monaco and EU is via a bipartisan arrangement with France (Monaco is in Schengen for example). In the case of Liechtenstein its done through EFTA rules. The problem with Gibraltar is none of these things apply, so there has to be a deal with bordering nation because physical goods will be able to transit between the two countries but aren't subject to common rules. The Spanish have a specific need for a direct deal on Gibraltar because they can be affected in ways other EU nations can't, and Gibraltar follows different tax and trade rules to the UK.

 

[Embattle]

Well I suspect a few of the leavers would just say the inability to agree anything in the coming negotiations is probably one of the reasons they decided to vote leave, in essence the EU couldn't organise a piss up in a Irish brewery on Saint Patrick's day.

I'm fairly sure you can keep playing pass the parcel when it comes to what people think of the other side, all leavers are idiots and all the people who voted are moaning whinge bags but whatever comes:


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Faf1ch7Q9XE


and so will nearly everyone else.

 

[Embattle]

https://www.icmunlimited.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/2017_guardian_apr1_poll.pdf

 

[Scouse]

Well I suspect a few of the leavers would just say the inability to agree anything in the coming negotiations is probably one of the reasons they decided to vote leave

That's kinda the whole point though. No change unless agreed change.

Different decisions affect different countries differently, producing inequalities, resulting in conflict. The whole point is to stop that. Obvious stuff that gets agreed on moves forward.

 

[Job]

This is amusing...dont tell the French.

Britain has plan to blow up the Channel Tunnel with a nuclear bomb if Brexit goes wrong

 

[Raven]

Another misleading story trotted out. It was a last resort plan developed to stop a Russian advance if shit went seriously south. Long before the EU even existed, let alone we decided as a nation to get rid.

These idiotic headlines are getting silly.

 

[Job]

Id love to see atomic demolition in action.

5 4 3 2 1..oh fuck.

 

[Gwadien]

I don't think it was entirely serious @Raven

It is quite interesting though - that stretch of water has defended us for hundreds of years.

The chunnel would have to go if another war kicked off!

I'm fairly surprised they don't have stand by explosives in there already

 

[Embattle]

Id love to see atomic demolition in action.

5 4 3 2 1..oh fuck.

Unless you happened to be in Kent.

 

[Raven]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJP-EaxZeg8

 

[Raven]

It's a long one (and a little old in today's climate)


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWMmBG3Z4DI

 

[Hawkwind]

The problem with EU trying to assert controls on a sovereign nation is well known, many bad examples and it does little but fuel nationalism and negativity. Spain could very well have a say in what happens with Gibraltar and that would make sense for both sides. UK would have no interest in Gibraltar being isolated. The EU dictating a one sided view is bullying before the negotiations start. Why are they concerned about tax havens against hard borders? Makes no sense to me money does not travel in suitcases.

 

[Raven]

It would do if Junker has his way!

Utter scum at the top of the tree, a man that defines what is wrong with the world.

 

[DaGaffer]

The problem with EU trying to assert controls on a sovereign nation is well known, many bad examples and it does little but fuel nationalism and negativity. Spain could very well have a say in what happens with Gibraltar and that would make sense for both sides. UK would have no interest in Gibraltar being isolated. The EU dictating a one sided view is bullying before the negotiations start. Why are they concerned about tax havens against hard borders? Makes no sense to me money does not travel in suitcases.

Yes, it absolutely does travel in suitcases. That's one of the big problems.

 

[Hawkwind]

Yes, it absolutely does travel in suitcases. That's one of the big problems.

Most banks and businesses cannot even accept large amounts in cash so not legally then. Unless you file all the forms with it etc.

 

[DaGaffer]

Most banks and businesses cannot even accept large amounts in cash so not legally then. Unless you file all the forms with it etc.

You don't have to accept large transactions if you've got lackeys walking over the border every single day (and casinos are always handy laundering vector and Gib has loads). Anyway, that's only one issue; a bigger concern would be Spanish businesses routing services through Gibraltar and out to get a tax benefit (a bit like the double Irish). It wouldn't matter so much if Gib was following UK corporate tax rates (for now, the Tories are probably going to cut it), but it isn't and hasn't been specifically called out in the Article 50 submission. Its almost like UK Gov thought the EU wouldn't notice...

*edit* The simple fact is accountants are clever fuckers when it comes to tax avoidance and Spain doesn't want to give them a vector to get creative.

 

[Raven]

It's almost like people think it actually matters. The money still goes to the same corporations, regardless of which country it is taxed in and how. Even if it is slowed down by taxation, the money works its way into the pockets of the corps/people avoiding tax, one way or another.

 

[Hawkwind]

You don't have to accept large transactions if you've got lackeys walking over the border every single day (and casinos are always handy laundering vector and Gib has loads). Anyway, that's only one issue; a bigger concern would be Spanish businesses routing services through Gibraltar and out to get a tax benefit (a bit like the double Irish). It wouldn't matter so much if Gib was following UK corporate tax rates (for now, the Tories are probably going to cut it), but it isn't and hasn't been specifically called out in the Article 50 submission. Its almost like UK Gov thought the EU wouldn't notice...

*edit* The simple fact is accountants are clever fuckers when it comes to tax avoidance and Spain doesn't want to give them a vector to get creative.

With all the anti corruption rules (DOJ, Brit & EU) you pretty much can't do it (suitcase of money). You have to file forms showing traceability etc. Agree totally that tax avoidance is part of the issue but that is not going to stop. So many ways for companies to save money. They will always find attractive places where rules make their books look better. Christ even Ireland does it with allowable high depreciation rates of assets which is why all the aircraft lease companies are based in Dublin. It makes their books look better as they write off the asset quicker and sell aircraft for a book profit.

What the EU is doing will not solve it, they are just antagonising the British before the talks begin.

 

[Bodhi]

Thing is, if Spain have such a bee in their bonnet about low tax jurisdictions, I would have thought they would have sorted out Ceuta and the Canary Islands first?

What I suspect they're more bothered about are all the people from the surrounding areas popping over the border for cheap cigarettes. Well that and distracting from the separatists movements in Catalonia and the Basque regions anyway.

 

[DaGaffer]

Thing is, if Spain have such a bee in their bonnet about low tax jurisdictions, I would have thought they would have sorted out Ceuta and the Canary Islands first?

What I suspect they're more bothered about are all the people from the surrounding areas popping over the border for cheap cigarettes. Well that and distracting from the separatists movements in Catalonia and the Basque regions anyway.

Cueta and Melilla will still be EU territory, Gib won't be.

Look, I'm not here to defend Spanish double standards over overseas colonies, or even suggest Spain has any claim to Gibraltar , but there's no getting away from the Spain/UK/Gibraltar relationship will be materially different post-Brexit, and pretending it's 1926 and we can send a gunboat is moronic.