Season 6 suggestions and ideas

R

RogueOne

Guest
I know it's awfully early to start this thread, but I like to get some running feedback as the season goes on. Below are my suggestions for the next season. Unless I specifically indicate otherwise, assume that all aspects of what I say are open to discussion.

1) League size: Ideally, I'd like to expand a little again. This would probably mean 12 clan divisions, which would have obvious effects on the maplist, which I'll outline below. However, this will be entirely dependant upon the level of support we get from volunteer admins, so it's by no means certain.

2) CO/MR12: I think the split will be justifiable again, although I'll take a better consensus on this at the end of the current season.

3) Match rules/server settings: I see no real need for change here, although I'm open to suggestions. I will, however, insist that friendlyfire stays on.

4) Anticheat: I'm hoping that VAC will soon be at the stage where we can drop HLGuard from our servers. This should improve pings considerably.

5) Map list: ah... this is always the fun bit. I have two possible outlines for next season's maplist, both of which are open to question.

Assuming we stay with 10-clan divisions

Week 1: de_cbble - safe map
Week 2: de_dust2 - safe map
Week 3: de_train - most people seem to like it
Week 4: de_aztec - snipeathon
Week 5: de_prodigy - safe map
Week 6: de_inferno - safe map
Week 7: de_clan2_fire - I'll be trialing this CPL-approved custom map with division 1 this season. If it works, we'll use it more broadly next season.
Week 8: de_piranesi - assuming it work well this season
Week 9: de_nuke - safe map

Assuming we go to 12-clan divisions

Week 1: de_cbble
Week 2: de_dust2
Week 3: de_nuke
Week 4: de_prodigy
Week 5: de_inferno
Week 6: de_aztec
Week 7: de_cbble
Week 8: de_dust2
Week 9: de_nuke
Week 10: de_prodigy
Week 11: de_inferno

So basically, all of the maps aside from de_aztec would appear twice.

I'm posting this thread because I want feedback... and lots of it. So please don't be shy.
 
J

Johnny Bravo

Guest
OK I'll jump in here first :)

I like the idea of expanding the leagues, I think BWCSL seems like a very well run league and is also very popular. Our clan were very disappointed when we never managed to get a coveted place for season 5, so the more chance we have of playing the better :)

Now the map lists, as in all competitions, a bit contentious. I think the main problem playing some maps twice is if a clan is weak on one of those maps, they are going to have to have 2 bad games in a season. Where as previously it could be a case of great got de_xxxxx out of the way. On the other hand it would be hard to to come up with 11 well balanced de_ maps.

How about putting a vote up now, listing all official de_ maps along with some of the more recognised competition maps (mill & fire). allow people to pick a top 10 and the winning 11 maps get put up as the season 6 list. (democracy sometimes works ;))
 
T

TJay

Guest
I like the look of the 12 map list. However I think this league should try and be as much like the cal / cpl as possible. Firstly this would attract some of the better UK clans to the league making the level of competition a lot harder. I personal think the days of co rules is gone. MR is definately the way to go especially since all the biggest leagues use it as their rule system. BWCSL seems to be the league that is the most popular and well run. If we can also make it a very professional league I think it would help a lot of clans form much more solid team play and tactics.

Amen

MuffinMan
 
R

RogueOne

Guest
I understand your point about CPL rules and maps attracting the "top end" clans. However, BWCSL is not just a league for the top end clans. CPL rules and, in particular, MR12 are quite offputting to a lot of the "normal" clans in the league, who play here for fun and not just for practice for the CPL.

Division 1 and one of the division 2s use MR12 rules. Therefore, none of the "top" clans should be made to play CO. However, with CO still extremely popular among the "for fun" clans, I don't see why there is a problem with continuing to use it in some divisions.

Remember... not everybody likes the CPL and the direction it's tried to take CS in. I don't think it's a bad thing to give people a certain degree of choice over how they play.
 
A

-adz-

Guest
I would like to see de_train tho if we do go 12

And keep the choice open, its one of the better distinguishing factors from other leagues
 
T

[TNN]Aardvark

Guest
I think there is a strong case for making at least division 2 MR12 only, as the clans coming from the CO section would find it very difficult coming into div1 to adapt to both the leap in competition and a whole new rules method. The jump from div3 to 2 isn't so great, so keep the CO sections there, div2 is after all where things start to get a little serious :)
 
R

RogueOne

Guest
Problem is, our division 2CO clans are probably the most vehement of the CO supporters, so for the time being, Div2CO will be staying :)
 
F

Fest

Guest
Heh time for my worthless 5 peneths,

IMO When i join a Public server i Mainly play on de_maps's as every one else does Main Maps being Dust, Aztec & Dust2 I find that these can get very boring and I often enjoy it when they are broke up by a cs_map. Now i can undersant that cs maps are not very well suited to League matches, But as far as im aware We have never used them before..... Now not many cs maps are good but i cant see a reason why we couldnt us cs_italy?? as its got a good balance for all players and everyone seems to like the map as well, so its not asif People don't know where to go or what to do.... It's only my sugestion and most stuff is ay gets ignored anyway so nm :)

As for the 12 Clan per Division; Hmm I think its a hard decision because like footie, rugby, icehocky.... You play each team twice in a league, and I would like that as there is always alot of talk after saying if we could of done this blah blah (im no different :p) so playing each team twice would double the weeks which is the problem... Would not adding another 2 x Divison 2 teams so only 2 got demoted form each division (like Div3) as ther eare alot of div2/3 clans out there and ther eis a thin line between div2/3...
 
R

RogueOne

Guest
The "play each clan twice" thing has been considered before now, but has been rejected because it would mean our seasons would be just too long. With the usual rate of clan dropout, there'd be nobody left in some of the divisions by the end of the season :p

Believe it or not, BWCSL has used cs_ maps, including cs_italy before, way back in season 1. They didn't work well at the time and to be honest, I don't think they'd work well now. The problem is always that the Ts can just defend a single point and are usually all-but-impossible to dig out.
 
F

Fest

Guest
Hmm I see your point, But last season I think it was only 8 clans per Div group Yet we want to increase it yet again to 12 clans ( that is nearly quarter of a year. ) So Wouldn't it be a better idea to Add an extra 2 division 2 clans so the table would look something like

#Div1
#Div2 E
#Div2 N
#Div2 S
#Div2 W
#Div3 E
#Div3 N
#Div3 S
#Div3 W
#Div4 CO
#Div4 MR12

And Having The Top clan of each Div 2 clan going into Div 1. Hmm As im going over myself I'm starting to think its sounds bit stupid :( What do you reckon :/
 
R

RogueOne

Guest
And just exactly which timeslots do you suggest we use for the new divisions? :)

Remember, we only have the servers for 3 nights a week.

Besides, there's more pressure for new spaces at the lower divisions, so 2 new divison 2s wouldn't help much.
 
P

[pp]Ripper

Guest
fest, uI arent gonna make promotion, and u cant invent a division 2 to get u in a higher division either :p
 
A

andersschm

Guest
This is my first season in BWCSL so if I suggest anything that has been tried in the past please forgive me!

Results roundup - They did this in BYCSL for the first week of season 2 before they realised they didn't have the time to do it properly. They wrote a quick report of the action in each of the leagues - mentioning notable performances or events. Obviously it would get better as you got further into the season with speculation about who is getting promoted etc.

de,cs, etc.. - Not too keen on hostage rescue in clan games! I am with the majority and say defuse is the way to go. However, in BYCSL season 1 they used as_oilrig in their map rotation and it was great :) I doubt there will be much support for as maps in BWCSL but I've always thought assasination was a sound concept suited to clan games - but it falls down in public servers.

League length - Making the league a little longer to get extra teams in would be okay - 3 month seasons would be a good place to stop though.. as half these clans that keep splitting up and reforming don't last much longer than that!

Past achievements list - A page on the website containing previous league tables and competition winners..
 
P

[pp]Ripper

Guest
Agreed with the past season standings bit, and as for the roundup i think u'll probably find that bycsl got the idea from us. Over the past couple of seasons Rogue1's posted a weekly review on www.actionnation.com, but like you mentioned, this is extremely time consuming a takes a lot of effort to produce a detailed report, especcialy with so many divisions. Last season a few people helped him out with it, and (while I cant confirm this), i heard rumours that Cooger had written some kind of report to appear soon.

:eek:)
 
R

RogueOne

Guest
Yes, Coog's done a week 1 roundup for me and I'll see if I can bash out a week 2 roundup tonight. Both should be up some time this evening.
 
I

isuck

Guest
for volunteers, u guys rock !

i dont know if many folks here are in the bycsl, but it sucks. the league admins are as retarded as the public ones. (most notably a half hour wait for an admin to actually turn up)

bwcsl rocks ! etc.
 
A

andersschm

Guest
BYCSL isn't too bad - some of the admins are a bit unreliable I admit though ;)
 
K

-]K.M[-Ryo

Guest
Well, the league is run well, however i find the absence of cs maps extremely annoying. They are as much a part of Counterstrike as de maps. Maps like cs_backalley could bring some much needed stealth to clan matches. Keep the CO rules. and if possible can KM be in a CO division next season? As for this custom map: it's bland, has poor cover and is quite frankly mundane. Please put in some hostage maps, maybe those with fewer hostages or ones with hostages that are close together eg cs_office, backalley, militia. Maybe such maps would cut down the "rushing ethic" of matches which makes them not much fun and more like a deathmatch. I'll probably get the piss ripped outta me now but that's my opinion. If you don't agree that's fine. KM will play whatever we are required to play. Also the idea of playing each clan twice is very appealing. Maybe if this was implemented a sort of "home and away" thing could be made ie "home matches" being when you start as terrorists and "away matches" when you start as t's. As it can be very disheartening to lose the first half by a large margin and then many players lose their will to fight on in the second half. By playing everyone twice the advantage of starting as terrorists would be eliminated and the leagues may become more interesting.
Maybe as maps could also be considered. These maps are unfairly overlooked as they require more teamwork than any of the de or cs maps.
Bombtimers are (in my opinion) rediculous. The standard bombtimer in CS was 45 seconds. Why not use this? 30 seconds is a bit too short on maps where bomsites are relatively distant from one another, for example piranesi.

By far my strongest opinion from the above is that some cs and/or as maps should be used, they are included in counter-strike so therefore it makes sense to play matches on them. Obviously you nice admins have to vet each map individually. This would probably mean as_tundra being the only acceptable as map, but any amount of diversity could make things more interesting.


Thanks for providing the cs community with a GOOD, FREE league.



.....end of transmission
 
R

RogueOne

Guest
You make some fair points there, although a lot of them have been raised in previous seasons. At any rate, I'll try to give them a fair reply.

The question of cs_ maps comes up every single season and every season, I'm almost persuaded to use them, then get talked out of it at the last moment. The single huge problem with cs_ maps is that the Terrorists only need to defend a single position. Even on maps like cs_office, where the hostages are split up, it's only necessary to defend one of the two groups, so the Ts can hole up in the projector-room and basically make it impossible for the enemies to get in. Obviously, on maps like italy and militia, where the hostages are much closer together, the problem is even worse. In fact, cs_ maps become even more deathmatchy that de_ maps, because it's so hard to successfully complete the "objective" that you'll see far fewer rounds being won by the hostages being rescued than you will see rounds being won by the bomb going off/being defused on de_ maps. With the Ts having such a strong defensive advantage, I seriously doubt the CTs would win a single round in division 1 or 2 games. As I've stated before, I don't like blindly following the CPL, but their policy of de_ maps only is, to my mind, pretty hard to fault.

as_ maps have been suggested once or twice, but I really don't see them working as league maps. Again, there's nothing to stop the Ts from just camping the escape-point with AWPs, which would be nigh on impossible to beat. You don't often see that on publics, but in a clan game, it would be bound to happen.

I'm well aware of the benefits of playing each clan twice. Indeed, once in the past, I suggested a system whereby we would publish a list of "officially approved" maps. Each team would then play each other twice, with each team picking a map from the list for one of the games. However, as I've said before, the big problem is that this would give us an extraordinarily long season and with CS clans not being the most reliable or long-lived of entities, the league may well be pretty empty by the end of the season.

de_clan2_fire is definitely not the best looking map around. However, I believe it has a good degree of tactical depth and is well suited to the 5v5 MR12 game-style. The reaction from the div1 clans, who are the only people who'll be playing it this season, has been unanimously positive so far. We would have to think very seriously before introducing it at the lower divisions, where it would not be as well known and where more people prefer to play CO, to which it is arguably not as well suited.

CO divisions will definitely be staying and it shouldn't be a problem to move K-M to one of them next season. I, like many other people, believe that CO rules provide a far better framework for fun and fast CS play, with a better overall balance and more fun for spectators than MR12 play. However, the CPL uses MR12 and as such, a lot of clans insist on playing it. The current split-rules system was reached as a compromise after months of debate and seems to have worked well so far. I've certainly not received any credible objections to it. I see no harm in keeping CO rules alive, since as thousands of Quake 3 players will tell you, the CPL are nothing if not fickle with their choice of games and with UT2k3 on the horizon, I suspect CS's days as their game of choice are numbered.

The bombtimer has been debated before, although not at length. For seasons 1 - 3 we used a 30 second timer, but for the last two seasons we've used 35 instead. I'm willing to listen to debate on this and with the general trend being for larger and larger maps in CS, a move to... say... a 40 second timer is not something I would rule out for future seasons.

Thanks for the feedback. I hope my reply makes sense and that you enjoy the rest of the season.
 
K

-]K.M[-Ryo

Guest
Thankyou for explaining some things, I now understand a little better how much effort you put inot the league. I never thought about the point you raised about cs maps, but it does make a lot of sense and i understand why the maps are not used now :).
 
C

Ch3tan

Guest
40 seonds is too long a timer, 35 is spot on. Newer CS maps have not proved great, look at piranesi, chateu, torn, storm. Most play fine on a public but are not suited for clan games due to their size. They also create a lot of server side lag and that is soemthing that league play really does not need.
 
A

andersschm

Guest
While I think the core of the league should be based around established maps - I like to see one or two unusual maps thrown in for the following reasons:

a : A lot of people don't give new maps a try - they stick to playing aztec, dust and prodigy every week. Gives BWCSL something that you cannot get in most ladders.

b : A good counterstrike clan is not 5 people who have played de_dust2 to death so they are undefeatable on it - a good clan can adapt to any match situation and work together for victory.

c : It adds a little uncertainty.. newer clans have known piranesi as long as the Beta 1 clans and nobody is quite sure of their footing.

And plus 35 second bomb timer is good.. makes it worth planting on smaller maps.
 
R

RogueOne

Guest
I think I personally agree with everything Anders said there. New maps make people actually *think* once in a while. I've been considering amending the 10-clan list, with de_clan1_mill replacing de_piranesi. Using both mill and fire would surprise quite a few of our clans, I think :)

BTW, given the current admin situation, it's extremely unlikely we'll be able to do the proposed expansion to 12 clans per divisions. All volunteers to admin are welcome :)
 
C

charl8tan

Guest
Well if you do need another I'd be happy to help. Though I wouldn't be able to untill next season as my comp is currently offline and this thing is a bag of poop and I cannae see bugger all when using it really....
 
A

andersschm

Guest
PS - Regarding knife rounds and the lack of them.

PS - Regarding knife rounds and the lack of them.

I like not having knife rounds - all that happens in a knife round is the two clans find some high ground to sit on and look at each other - after about two minutes people get impatient and everything just goes crazy followed by a lone survivor running around the map being chased by his opponents.

I prefer the home/away system and hope it is adopted more widely in other competitions. Alternatively they implement an rcon command allowing the admin to toss a coin to pick sides.

Fight knife fighting.. not knife fights!
 
T

[TNN]Aardvark

Guest
Right first off on the bomb timers, the whole idea is to stop the bomb being planted at all. Hence the short timer, you get a little chance to redeem the mistake, but you're not going to have much.

I don't think 12 clan divs would be great for the next season at least, keeping it at 10 would be fine. Bringing in mill as well as fire would also solve the de_dust problem, so I say go for it.
 
A

[AntiHD]Justboy

Guest
Word.

This is my first post and the first thing I'd like to say is that Rogue1 seems to be doing a good job even though I think he's nasty because in one of my first matches in the BWCSL [pp] a**-raped us into oblivion. I'm still having trouble sitting down.

For the chimp who slagged of torn and chateau - those maps rock, the distance between bombsites is minimal, ie 5-10 seconds to run between them. They are detailed and interesting and beat the proverbial crap out of de_dust - I mean what the hell is dust meant to be? It's not a real life setting that's for sure. When I ask for an AWP to banned on a server people say that it has to stay in for the realism, because in real life that gun exists. Ok, but in real life do Terrorists plot to bomb a bunch of crates in the middle of some dusty glorified paintball arena(de_dust)? At least with torn and chateau the realism is maintained.

MR12 vs CO. CO puts too much emphasis on mad rushing. Tactical clans may choose to wait for CTs to throw nades and spread out before rushing but lose purely because the other clan just legged it from spawn every round and built up money faster.

de_clan2_fire - maybe it works in the CPL but it's a tad sparse and would only work in the top divisions. As for an element of surprise? Doubtful. Those maps take about 3 minutes to learn and most clans who play them in a match will have practised or at least played the map before.

I'd like to see more CS maps being used although the T camp thing is undoubtedly an issue. I'd rule out militia for a start but to combat camping on other maps like office and italy surely you can just use flashbangs and smoke and all that jazz to weed out the Ts or mount an assault on them.

You could always try chucking a CS map into the mix an see how it goes down. Just a thought.

I'm off to eat some pies. Justboy oot.
 

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