Season 8 Suggestions

Discussion in 'Counter-Strike League' started by andersschm, Jun 19, 2003.

  1. andersschm

    andersschm Guest

    After my first full season running things I'm feeling more confident to make larger changes for season 8. All suggestions are welcome and will be considered so I urge all players and admins to read the ideas I have below and speak freely about what they would like to see happen in the league. Even if we cannot introduce something this season it may be something you see in following seasons.

    1) League size: Most important here is that all clans that have dropped out will be replaced. All leagues will continue with 10 clans and more leagues will be added demand permitting.

    2) League Structure: I think division 1 and 2 is fine at the moment. However I am concerned that division 4 is the poor relative at the moment, there is little interest in playing there and it doesn't fit into the pyramid structure of the other divisions. Also division 3 there is probably a wider difference in clan skill level that there should be.

    I believe that for season 8, division 3 should be sized at 2 (of possibly 3) divisions with the lower placed clans from division 3 forming with division 4 to make 3 (or 4) division 4's. I think this will offer clans more opportunity to play in more balanced matches and make division 4 a more integral part of the league - instead of being tacked on at the bottom.

    3) MR12/MR??: I believe that MR12 still is the best rules solution presented. It is a good time length and is enough rounds for a competitive game. Playing more rounds eliminates some of the effect of the CS money system which in my opinion is an interesting part of the strategy involved in CS clan games. However MR12 is not set in stone...

    4) Match rules/server settings: I have been trying different server settings on various days to try and establish what is the best setup for the equipment we have. I think we have settings now that should give the best performance and as long as they work okay in the final weeks of season 7 they will be used in season 8.

    4) Anticheat: VAC and WWCL will probably be used again next season. However 1.6's release and future developments with other anti-cheat solutions may present changes closer to the time.

    5) Knife rounds : Never!

    6) Map list: Same core of maps. However we propose using de_bwcsl_stone in the league as it has proved quite popular in test matches we have used the map in.

    It is currently available at : http://www.m00.nildram.co.uk/junkyard/bwcsl_map.html

    Please take a look and give your opinions. Personally I think it is a good map for clan games and offers a range of opportunities.

    7) BW/Game.net Logins : This season there have been lots of problems with people locking their accounts, losing their passwords and other login related incidents. Next season I propose that a guide to logging in be published on the website, but further support from admins be refused and the players involved directed to talk to Barrysworld or Game.net staff. BWCSL admins are powerless regarding your login accounts and end up just asking BW/Game staff to help you when the players should really go directly to them.

    8) Shoutcast Servers : We have been trialling a shoutcast system this season and it might come active before this season ends. We are planning that the most popular game that day should have a shoutcast server allocated to it so that the HLTV spectators can listen to commentary while the game is being played.

    We look forward to hearing your comments - so get making them and let us know what you want from BWCSL.

    No doubt I will remember/think of more things for this list and I will post them soon!
     
  2. andersschm

    andersschm Guest

    Website

    Ah I knew I forgot something :

    A new website.

    We are developing a new website for the league. It will be similar in feel to the current website but is more intelligent to make the processing of results and league tables easier. Also the website is due to be more interactive for the players in the league so that match reports and other comments can be posted.

    It isn't complete yet so I can't give a full list of features, but suggestions about what you would like to see on the new website are also welcome.
     
  3. ECA

    ECA Guest

    Ok heres my list of ideas, some of which have already found their way into anders list so I wont repeat.

    Firstly I think the new league website should be more of a community hub.

    Match reports from each clans leader with comments postable.

    Secondly I think the wonid lists should be made public - easier for people to check wonids against cheat databases and find out if a team has been mercing etc.

    Each clan should have a mini profile page with list of members/wonid/brief intro + web and irc link.

    A vote section where all the clan leaders can vote on rule issues like skybox nades, silent plants, etc. etc.


    I agree with anders the division system should be revised and I would propose something similar.

    A single Premier Divisision with 10 clans.

    The bottom 4 are relegated.

    Two Division 1's Alpha and Omega ( sounds better than colours? ).

    The winner is auto promoted and the #2 from alpha plays #3 from omega and vice versa to decide who is promoted.
    I think 2 division 3's with the same promotion/demotion system.
    And 2 division 4's.
    All divisions with 10 clans per.

    I think a stat system could be reported also where each player or clan leader can enter their teams individual scores for each match and the admins can correct these if needs be. Could develop a clan management side game as well for fun like SEL has.

    I also think the map list should be revised.
    To this ends I think a pre-season week or so would be a good idea. You could try new maps that havnt really been tested before to use in the end of season - eg first 7-8 maps are set but new maps could replace prodigy/fire/aztec/etc. the maps clans dont want to play.

    Predictions and roundups - something we currently do.

    The plan is for bimonthly roundups and weekly predictions. I was thinking of getting a guest in each week to do Division 1 ( preds only ) as an additional feature :-]

    I think a system to display HLTV ips on the webby would be good and also picks of the week so one match per timeslot is that divs highlight match.

    Its getting a bit late and i think i've forgotten some stuff so i'll revisit and post anything I've forgotten later.
     
  4. plebas

    plebas Guest

    Div 4 should be reformed, but format depends on size of league.


    MR12 is system most clans are used to. Any longer than that and matches would probably just go on forever and would difficult to keep within the schedule.

    Server do not seem as good as I'd expect, though in truth, there is nothing really wrong with them.

    Using "unpopular" maps is a good thing. dust2 and aztec are on every server rotation. Having the less well known maps makes things interesting and challenging. I'm all for the bwcsl custom map, but it needs a try-out phase.

    The shoutcast doesn't seem worthwhile imo. HLTV lags anyway, and on top of that the shoutcast lags too so the sound and match will be well out of sync. Isn't possible to commentate on HLTV anyway?

    Perhaps if there is going to be "community" website, there should be some1 allocated to each div who will produce a report on each round of matches, produce a profile a 1 clan a week and make predictions for forthcoming fixtures.
     
  5. ECA

    ECA Guest

    If the shoutcaster connects as a spectator he can then set a custom delay on the shoutcast so its in-synch with the HLTV.

    Also by less popular maps I meant aztec/prodigy/ namely.
    And I meant less popular as far as clans go, not on general publics.
     
  6. FoxclonE

    FoxclonE Guest

    BWCSL Rules

    There has been a lot of questions recently from clan members regarding skybox nades, especially this week with the map being de_inferno, it seems as this has been a "grey " issue, with some clans regarding it as a blatent map exploit, it was only after matches that players asked if skybox nades were illegal, then, after being told they were not, some clans were finding this most unfair, i know some of you will say they should have asked beforehand, in a perfect world, they would, but it's not a perfect world is it.

    My suggestion would be to make BW rules the same as cpl, as they seem the way forward, also, the clans should be made fully aware of the rules before the season starts.
    I know there are rules to be read now, but a lot of clans dont bother to read them, I think a stronger point should be made before the start of a season for clan leaders to read the rules so as not to cause confusion mid-way into a campaign.


    FoxclonE aka SpongeBob :)
     
  7. c0Ka|Ne

    c0Ka|Ne Guest

    Some very good suggestions for season 8. I dont have any to add myself as of yet as most have been mentioned already. Instead I will emphasise on what I think would be a good addition to Season 8:

    1.) MR12 is definately best kept. I know some places are adopting MR15 but as mentioned before it will just make the games longer and not much else. MR12 increases the pressure on clans to perform well in a short amount of time and can add to the tension.

    2.) Inclusion of custom BW maps is definately a good idea and adds a sense of originality to the league. Of course they will need to be approved first. Having said that I think keeping maps that are not very popular (aztec, prod, etc.) are worth having in the league. It can make results rather unpredictable.

    3.) A HLTV page with times and ips for matches will definately generate a bigger interest in fixtures and to the league itself. Shoutcasts also seem a nice addition although you will need to get around the technical issues for it to work.

    4.) Redesigning the website is something to look forward too. The design has been sufficient uptil now but quite limited. The inclusion of stats and similar things would make the league more 'organised' and add a lot of depth. A more professional look and feel will definately generate attention within the UK CS scene. However, having said that one of the biggest things I admire about the site is its simplicity. So while adding many new features please take a second to think about its structure, etc.
    I know its not an easy thing to do but I'm sure your brains will sort something out.

    5.) Last of all I think all bug exploits should be classified as illegal as this to me is still a form of cheating. Why? Just because its there dosent mean we should use it. They were not intentionally made. Cheats are around but we don't use them. Same difference.

    Having said all that my clan is not in BW league so I havent made any points on league structure, etc. CU@SEASON8 though =D
     
  8. andersschm

    andersschm Guest

    Website Comments

    Regarding the website it is still a way from completion. The designer has completed the structure of the page and the method by which the league tables, fixtures and results are handled. I have passed him a list of design requirements which includes some of the more community based features that you have been suggesting. I will recommend he comes here to read what has been written and can then discuss with me what we both feel should be included.

    WON ID List Comments

    I don't feel that the WON ID lists should be made public. We have the capacity to auto kick anyone from the servers who isn't registered but with the amount of clans who fail to update their team lists every week it hasn't been feasible turning it on. For effective WON ID management the clans need to improve their maintenance of these lists. Perhaps with hard enforcement from the start of next season it would teach a few clans to keep it maintained - would welcome comments on how people view the WON ID situation.

    Alpha/Omega instead of colours?

    I like colours - they are neutral and don't indicate rank - whereas calling them division 2a and 2b or 2alpha and 2omega suggest that a or alpha is perhaps higher than the other. However more name suggestions please - its confusing at times with divisions 2red and 2blue and divisions 3red and 3blue.

    Bug exploits/map exploits

    The policy imo has to be to keep the number of things outlawed down to the minimum of exploits that can cause major problems. With online games the majority of rule keeping has to be done by the software - the player can't fly across the level because the software doesn't allow it. Anti cheat software can supplement this - but I think it is mostly impossible for an admin/referee to control what players are doing within the confines of the software in an online environment. Making large exploits illegal is easier to enforce - if everyone accepts they are unacceptable there aren't many people attempting them and they generally get picked up on it. Smaller exploits and less known exploits are almost impossible to enforce online in my opinion - and if we do catch somebody climbing into an "illegal" position what appropriate punishment is there? The HL engine does not allow us to dock a round or deduct a health penalty or some similar punishment - and making such small exploits into a match changer seems to detract away from the CS as I see it.

    Still open to debate on all topics :)
     
  9. plebas

    plebas Guest

    Can't for the life of me see how aztec or prodigy could be considered "unpopular" maps, even for clan matches. I would rather see piranesi and chateau, which are well designed modern maps that ppl don't see all that often.


    The website looks fine to me. Its clear and simple to navigate. I'm not sure about the yellow and green. However having inputs like stats and so on will require some1 (probably the admin) to input all the individual scores, something I'm not sure I'd be keen on making an effort on. I'd like to reiterate that a more community feel where we see some discussion/prediction around the divisions would be nice. Perhaps some kind of bulletin board to help clans find pcws on unusual maps like mill and fire would be a bonus.

    Can't quite see whats wrong with colours, but I guess we could use planets or greek gods or countries or something neutral like that.....

    I suspect we should distinguish between "exploits" and "bugs". Clear definition of what these are, with the onus on the clans to look on the webby to find them out, should be sufficient.
     
  10. ECA

    ECA Guest

    When more people don't want to play a map than do then its unpopular.


    I would love to see Chateau in the rotation as I think its a fantastic map :-]
     
  11. tristoph

    tristoph Guest

    I think League Size so far is fair with 10 clans, seems a nice level to keep it at.

    Having played in Div3 this season, I was surprised to practice a map with one clan with 10 of their members on a public but then find they didn’t turn up for the game.

    Stick to MR12, having done MR15 in CSGN, most people, well from my old clan forgot to actually keep playing so dieing and then losing out possibly causing frustration although on the other hand with mr12 id prefer more guns than pistols as BWCSL really depends on if you win pistols as its up to 13, peoples minds think differently than if it was out of 24. In most decent clans you lose pistol, you lose 2 more rounds and then get awm.

    Good call for wwcl on the servers at last J Servers are set up with decent cheat protection and anymore I doubt would actually help. Octinium was released although I can’t see this being popular for every game even though I supported it at first.

    Map List – Most seem to hate prod, fire and mill as they are hard to get pcws on thus meaning less practice. I personally hate mill as the bombsites are so small I just say to the clan, don’t bother planting as its just certain death :E Fire and prod are nice maps though. You could add in stone to make a difference and force clans to produce tactics for non-cpl maps J part that maps are fine.

    The logins are fine for me but it would be sensible to post a guide I think as I logged in with someone else’s and lost his password easily.

    The shout cast is a very good idea and if I’d like to contribute if you need commentators, as it would be good to keep people entertained. I mean they pay for BWCSL so may as well make an impact on other leagues and do something different.

    Also if admins after each game could write a short match report and predictions for season and next week and send it to anders he could compile and make a nice weekly report like on ukt which was very decent to read. This could extend to clan leaders although its best kept in hands of admins. Ukcsl4u did that and it proved a nice read each week.

    The Webby is basic although I think it can be easily improved. No mumbo jumbo tech webby but an easily set out one maybe like csvs.co.uk but easy to view each league, match results etc. At mo I find it hard scrolling down each week looking for a clan and oh pls update the links as cs 1.4 I think is still in there :p
    Like ECA suggested

    “Each clan should have a mini profile page with list of members/wonid/brief intro + web and irc link.”

    Bout it from me really, I email’d you this morning anders about applying as an admin if there’s slots left as im interested and would put effort into help making the league special since we do pay for it J

    Catcha Laterz and bring on season 8 - Triz
     
  12. Offspr1ng`

    Offspr1ng` Guest

    HLTV with synced shoutcast would be very nice. More regular reports/predictions would also be good.

    First and foremost though, the servers have to be fixed. The server i played on this wednesday was one of the worst servers ive ever had to play on, and this is a league we pay for. In my opinion the full attention of BWCSL admins should be on resolving the server issue, until pings and reg are at respectable levels this league will not live up to its high potential.
     
  13. Junks-

    Junks- Guest

    Regarding the BWCSL Map (I made it)

    I have tested it with BWCSL clans from divisions 1, 2 and 3, plus numerous mixes with people who are used to map testing.

    There are 1 or 2 small (probably un-noticable by most people) bugs which need ironing out, however I can't keep releasing version after version as I'm trying to get as many people to play it as possible.

    If the map is selected for Season 8, I will be fixing those bugs and releasing a final version just before Season 8 starts.

    I'm hoping to get a 24/7 public server running the current release of the map, so people can play it when they want. /me nudges anders to ask barrys to sort it :)
     
  14. ThePatriot

    ThePatriot Guest

    Thanks Junks for that nice map.
    I just want to say as new team captain in div 4 that it should be great to rebuild Div 4 as they are quite only a few team present and evenmore some of these teams are not able to play all of their matches which is quite sad!
    Sorry if my english is not perfect but I'm from Belgium.......
     
  15. plebas

    plebas Guest

    Is the number of no-shows that we been seeing this year normal? Just looking at Div1, there are 3 clans that have just given up after a bad start. This looks poor and degrades the competition. Perhaps ways to encourage clans to stay to the bitter end should be considered.
     
  16. ECA

    ECA Guest

    It's known as the *exam season run*.
     
  17. andersschm

    andersschm Guest

    Dropouts are about the same as last season, most of them occuring because the clan is unable to partake further in the league due to breaking up, going inactive or other things forced on them.

    Toying perhaps with the idea of 12 team divisions - so that assuming an average of 1 team breaking up in each division you still get to play a good number of games.
     
  18. Archibald

    Archibald Guest

    Can we have de_chateau back on the map list for next season. I hear that the server load that it used to use has been sorted and it is a quality match map
     
  19. tristoph

    tristoph Guest

    yeh i was a bit disappointed by the number of default wins, i looked at week 6 i think it was and there was literally 3 from each set of 5 in each div. We have only had 1 default this season but the clan on the same points has had 3 and played another clan with 3 players.
    im not sure but possibly if a clan drops out another clan can replace them but has to take there losses? otherwise u get div1 ending up with 4 or so out of the 10 dropouts. it probably wouldnt work :(
    im happy to play the new bwcsl map long as i dont play mill :p
     
  20. plebas

    plebas Guest

    12 teams sounds good, we could have the nine maps we currently have, plus piranesi and chateau could make a return. Season might drag on for a bit tho and it means that more clans have nothing to play for, for a longer period, as the proportion of teams in the pro/rel slots is smaller.
     
  21. Junks-

    Junks- Guest

    I think also you should reform Division 2 Blue and Red.

    Snipers Alley, my clan, have 'played' 7 wars but 4 of those were defaulted, so we've played less than half the games we should have :/

    Can we have the established teams in one Division please so everyone knows the other team will actually turn up and we will get what we want
     
  22. plebas

    plebas Guest

    so Anders, any changes decided?
     
  23. Abysmal

    Abysmal Guest

    I think MR15 might be a good candidate for matches. If a clan loses the pistol round, it can be quite hard to come back to the game, whereas with 15 rounds at disposal, it might be a little more fair.

    And whats wrong with knife rounds?
     
  24. ECA

    ECA Guest

    Mr15 is good but for an online league with > 60 clans playing over 3 days, it would make the already tight in some matches, far too tight.
     
  25. spookeh

    spookeh Guest

    ECA, i assume u mean "it would make the already tight SCHEDULE" ?

    and abysmal :p knife rounds sux, they can be fun and all but they can also be lame. if its a league match and one team decides they REALLY want to be a particular side, u could get such lameness... the last guy running all round the map etc.

    plus it does take a fair amount of time, and lord knows the matches take long enough to get started anyway.

    plus i cba to change my mouse sensitivity for it

    plus i like already knowing what side we are first, means u got a bit more time to make sure the team knows what they are doing for the next 12 rounds (hah)



    i prefer mr12 over 15, i know it makes the pistol rather important but thats not necessarily a bad thing is it. 3 more rounds isnt gonna make that much of a difference anyway.

    finally, i like the divison sizes now, we had 9 opponents and the league has lasted 12 weeks fs, i want it over with so i can spend more time drinking and not have to practice :p (it's been fun though)
     
  26. andersschm

    andersschm Guest

    My rough plan for next season is :

    Division 1 - 12 clans (4 relegated)

    Division 2 Red - 12 Clans (2 promoted, 3 relegated)

    Division 2 Blue - 12 Clans (2 promoted, 3 relegated)

    Division 3 Yellow - 12 Clans (3 promoted, 4 relegated)

    Division 3 Green - 12 Clans (3 promoted, 4 relegated)

    Division 4 White - 12 Clans (4 promoted)

    Division 4 Black - 12 Clans (4 promoted)


    The season would be broken into two parts:

    Weeks 1 to 4 the first four games are fixtured as normal.

    End of week 4 all dropout clans are removed and the remaining weeks are fixtured without them. Hopefully this should leave people playing more games each week and not having weeks allocated to defaults. The idea of having 12 clans is also accomodating for dropouts - so a good number of games are still played in a season.

    Replacement clans can be introduced in weeks 1 to 4 if possible.

    Map rotation as yet unconfirmed.

    The new division 3 + 4 structure will be built from clans currently in division 3 + 4 along with relegated teams from division 2. Higher performing division 3 clans will remain in division 3 and lower placed teams will join the new division 4. Hopefully this will make division 3 and 4 more competitive.
     
  27. spookeh

    spookeh Guest

    sounds good, clears up some problems and makes a lot of sense,

    could u also put a 2 week limit on postponed matches as well, just in case.
     
  28. Abysmal

    Abysmal Guest

    Yeah, that sounds good anders.
     
  29. cenobite

    cenobite Guest

    Might I suggest that on the new site that is being coded you find a fairly good way of offering a recruiting service. It seems that a few players are looking for clans and I am guessing a few clans are looking for players.

    I know I am :) Div 2 level I would say.
     
  30. carky

    carky Guest

    thats a ace idea my clan is -[CSS]- if there is any room for that
     

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