Politics Scottish Independance.....Thoughts?

[Gwadien]

Oh, and they also claimed that America would want a currency union with them if the UK decided not to do it.

I don't think that's unreasonable. People look to their own economic well-being and so if the argument about independence was purely economic, then fair play, off you go Scotland. The problem is that the economic argument isn't actually true. If all the things fall into place the way the fishy twins say they will, then happy days and free Ferraris for everyone in skirtland. Problem is that an awful lot of those things are actually out of Scotland's control, like the EU and the currency, and the SNP aren't being honest about that.

Imagine if that was the case everywhere though, imagine if London decided to get Independence and become a country, the rest of the UK would melt.

 

[DaGaffer]

Oh, and they also claimed that America would want a currency union with them if the UK decided not to do it.

Who's "they"? I'm pretty sure the SNP haven't claimed that, as it would be a fib too far even for them. An independent Scotland could use the dollar, or float against the dollar (plenty of countries do that e.g Panama), but that's not an actual currency union; the US has no reason to enter a currency union with anyone, and never would.

Imagine if that was the case everywhere though, imagine if London decided to get Independence and become a country, the rest of the UK would melt.

Probably, and who knows, maybe 100 years from now city-states will do just that. The difference now is the Scotland was an independent country once, so there's a logic to being one again, which doesn't really apply to London. Not that I think the logic is very sound, but whatever.

NB. Someone in the US is currently suggesting breaking up California into six states for pretty much the same reasons.

 

[Poag]

London was a city state

Infact its technically a citystate now, as UK law doesn't always apply to The City....

Lookup The Remeberencer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_remembrancer

or watch.....

 

[Embattle]

After talking to some 'educated' Scottish people who I play DOTA with, I figured the reason for independence for them, is nothing but selfishness, not even because 'they want FREEEEEEEDOM'

In a nut shell, it seems they don't like the Tory Government, and don't like the democracy that we have.. Sorry lads, it's called a democracy for a reason, and they reckon, from their words, because of the booming 'advanced' industries in Scotland, and the North Sea Oil, Scotland will be a much richer country per person, than the rest of the UK.

So basically, the rest of the UK has stuck out with what shit we've had over the past few years and now in their minds, they want to break away and leave the rest of England to melt and they don't give a fuck.

The thing is rUK will always have a lower figure because naturally certain nations are lower thus they drag down other parts, if people want to be brutally honest England would have the highest separate figures with London even higher and as for advanced industries some of these are based around the idea of the advantages of the Union.

Not to mention they would have to take their share of debt. It wouldn't go down well for them if they refused. Any Mickey Mouse currency they come up with would be instantly junked.

I've no problem with them not taking any debt as long as they get utterly nothing from the assets whether they be currency, militarily, etc.

 

[Gwadien]

'They' are educated Scots (ha[jk]) Who work in large programming businesses, I did think a lot of their views were SNP propaganda, but they also like the SNP as a whole, they're a blend of Tory-Labour attitudes, (apparently) and the SNP won't die if they get independence, because of their policies, although they didn't seem to understand what I meant when I said that they only do half the job of a Government, if that.

 

[Job]

I hope to god they put on the yes part of the ballot...'are you sure about this...because all our industry will fuk off over the border and well be crawling back for a bail out within ten years'.

 

[old.user4556]

After talking to some 'educated' Scottish people who I play DOTA with, I figured the reason for independence for them, is nothing but selfishness, not even because 'they want FREEEEEEEDOM'

In a nut shell, it seems they don't like the Tory Government, and don't like the democracy that we have.. Sorry lads, it's called a democracy for a reason, and they reckon, from their words, because of the booming 'advanced' industries in Scotland, and the North Sea Oil, Scotland will be a much richer country per person, than the rest of the UK.

So basically, the rest of the UK has stuck out with what shit we've had over the past few years and now in their minds, they want to break away and leave the rest of England to melt and they don't give a fuck.

Anyone with half a brain cell knows that the oil is a finite resource that will soon become too expensive to extract. the oil argument is invalid.

It's telling that there is a surge for the SNP and UKIP - it's a chance to truly reboot politics in the UK for better or worse. Labour and Conservative have had too much for too long.

 

[Lamp]

What then?
Will Ipswich demand independence (not a huge loss TBH)

Load of bollocks and a massive fuck up by Cameron if Scotland goes.

 

[old.user4556]

What then?.

Fuck knows.

 

[Gwadien]

Anyone with half a brain cell knows that the oil is a finite resource that will soon become too expensive to extract. the oil argument is invalid.

It's telling that there is a surge for the SNP and UKIP - it's a chance to truly reboot politics in the UK for better or worse. Labour and Conservative have had too much for too long.

That was my argument - but the response was 'British' companies will move to Scotland because we will have a much lower corporation tax.

My response; Why aren't they all in Switzerland? - Oh wait, they are.

 

[DaGaffer]

That was my argument - but the response was 'British' companies will move to Scotland because we will have a much lower corporation tax.

My response; Why aren't they all in Switzerland? - Oh wait, they are.

No, they're all in Ireland, which has lower corporation tax and is in the Eurozone. And one of the reasons why Scotland can't have a currency union with Sterling is exactly because of the noises about corporation tax.

 

[Gwadien]

 

[Roo Stercogburn]

If a people want to govern themselves I'm happy for them to get on with it. Having their cake and eating it is another matter but I understand the drive to try and get as much as possible for themselves even if I disagree with many of their adamant claims that they are entitled to such.

I think long term everyone in the Isles loses from not being able to cooperate as one nation but humans don't have a history of being sensible and there's not a single part of the isles that hasn't behaved in a hateful manner to each other at one time or another. Breaking up the union is a symptom that we can't get past outdated tribal origins on both sides of the various arguments. People are willing to base their beliefs on secondhand opinions to the point where they're cutting off their noses to spite their faces even when the shallow arguments are based on events that happened hundreds of years ago and some of those events have very little or no relevance in the modern world. This is not to say that those in Westminster are perfect (quite the opposite) but north of the border people are kidding themselves on if they think a homegrown government is magically going to be better, corruption-free and able to solve all the problems of Scottish society. The Scottish may hate the English for beating them in a fight but lets not forget that was with the aid of Scottish clans fucking each other over in the first place.

Too many bugs watching the spider on the next branch oblivious to the guy with the flamethrower pointed at them all.

 

[Gumbo]

Anyone with half a brain cell knows that the oil is a finite resource that will soon become too expensive to extract. the oil argument is invalid.

It's telling that there is a surge for the SNP and UKIP - it's a chance to truly reboot politics in the UK for better or worse. Labour and Conservative have had too much for too long.

With a Scottish yes vote it gives the tories a massive boost though. They lose 1 MP, Labour lose 41 and the Lib Dems 11. Should mean a nice 20 years or so of stable Conservative government. Lovely.

 

[Gwadien]

With a Scottish yes vote it gives the tories a massive boost though. They lose 1 MP, Labour lose 41 and the Lib Dems 11. Should mean a nice 20 years or so of stable Conservative government. Lovely.

Suppose it's a double edged sword either way the Tories look at it...

Traditionally, they should be holding onto what ever land they have left, but at the same time, as you rightly say - votes.

 

[old.user4556]

With a Scottish yes vote it gives the tories a massive boost though. They lose 1 MP, Labour lose 41 and the Lib Dems 11. Should mean a nice 20 years or so of stable Conservative government. Lovely.

For sure. That isn't really a concern for the nationalists.

 

[gohan]

I can take over Scotland if they need me to!! I own a kilt and everything!

 

[Tom]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-27159614

LOL. £1bn for an 8.7 mile railway.

And these are the people who think they can run Scotland more efficiently than Westminster.

 

[old.user4556]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-27159614

LOL. £1bn for an 8.7 mile railway.

And these are the people who think they can run Scotland more efficiently than Westminster.

Firstly, every single person in Scotland with a shred of intelligence thinks the trams are a fucking waste of money.

Secondly, you're using that to take a pop at the Scottish Government? Remind me, my memory is hazy, exactly how many billions did the useless cunts at Westminster spend on going to war in Iraq and Afghanistan? £1 billion? £10 billion? £20 billion? How fucking much?!

Governments make mistakes, they get themselves in infrastructure pickles, but the wars raged by the UK with their cock-sucking cousins over the Atlantic completely eclipse the incompetence by Edinburgh City Council.

 

[Gwadien]

I don't understand trams, they seem daft, I live in Nottingham which has an expanding tram infrastructure - they're building a track to go to my university campus for instance which is a couple of miles outside the city, but I got a bus pass for £200 as a student, or a separate one for double the price which includes trams - and to me, that sounds stupid, since Students should be the ones who you should be targeting (not just for now, but the future - buying/renting houses near tram lines rather than cars.)

Trams also seem a bit pointless because they're on roads, which other cars use some times, so it doesn't exactly speed up the journey a great deal, it just seems to be a bit of a daft emphasis on being 'green'

It's almost as if they want metros, but they can't justify it.

 

[Raven]

£1600 per head to build the tram to travel 9 miles.

Those rainbow shitting unicorns are getting excited about being unleashed soon!

 

[DaGaffer]

I don't understand trams, they seem daft, I live in Nottingham which has an expanding tram infrastructure - they're building a track to go to my university campus for instance which is a couple of miles outside the city, but I got a bus pass for £200 as a student, or a separate one for double the price which includes trams - and to me, that sounds stupid, since Students should be the ones who you should be targeting (not just for now, but the future - buying/renting houses near tram lines rather than cars.)

Trams also seem a bit pointless because they're on roads, which other cars use some times, so it doesn't exactly speed up the journey a great deal, it just seems to be a bit of a daft emphasis on being 'green'

It's almost as if they want metros, but they can't justify it.

Why would you target students? Drop in the ocean compared to commuter traffic. Light Rail schemes do make sense over their lifetime if they get properly utilised (labour costs are a tiny fraction of buses over their life for instance).

Having said that this one has cost nearly four times as much per KM as the next most expensive one in the UK* (Manchester) and that was because Manchester was a giant fuckup where they had to relay the entire track when it floated off the street.

(*excluding the DLR, but that involved digging giant holes under London, the overground bits of the DLR were still a lot cheaper than this)

 

[Gwadien]

Why would you target students? Drop in the ocean compared to commuter traffic. Light Rail schemes do make sense over their lifetime if they get properly utilised (labour costs are a tiny fraction of buses over their life for instance).

Having said that this one has cost nearly four times as much per KM as the next most expensive one in the UK* (Manchester) and that was because Manchester was a giant fuckup where they had to relay the entire track when it floated off the street.

(*excluding the DLR, but that involved digging giant holes under London, the overground bits of the DLR were still a lot cheaper than this)

I'm referring to a whole mind set, students generally will make up a large amount of commuter traffic in the future, because they're the ones going to the offices to work, and it's better to convince them that public transport is a good idea, but I'm not convinced, I hate the fact I have to sit on a bus as it is that takes ages to get to the city centre which is hot and sweaty.

Nottingham is trying, as I say with their tram links (it looks like it's a completely separate track from campus to city ie cars can't use it) but in the city, the cars share the road with the trams in most places, BUT my bus pass doesn't cover the trams, which for an extra few quid, it should.

If you want an example where public transport is an absolute joke, is Leicester, I had a friend who got quoted for a bus pass for a year (To Loughborough) for £600, mine in Nottingham was £200, I think because she was an apprentice, she was entitled to less discount.

Why would she not learn to drive?

 

[Raven]

The cost of running a car for a year would be a lot more than £600 (the benefits of a car vs a buspass are obvious) but from purely cost, public transport is still the cheapest.

 

[Gwadien]

The cost of running a car for a year would be a lot more than £600 (the benefits of a car vs a buspass are obvious) but from purely cost, public transport is still the cheapest.

She drives a scooter, or at least she did.

 

[Raven]

That sounds suspiciously like a bike to me. You will have Tom in here telling you that you are wrong now!

 

[Bodhi]

The cost of running a car for a year would be a lot more than £600 (the benefits of a car vs a buspass are obvious) but from purely cost, public transport is still the cheapest.

Mine costs me -£300 a year to run

I love car allowances....

 

[DaGaffer]

I'm referring to a whole mind set, students generally will make up a large amount of commuter traffic in the future, because they're the ones going to the offices to work, and it's better to convince them that public transport is a good idea, but I'm not convinced, I hate the fact I have to sit on a bus as it is that takes ages to get to the city centre which is hot and sweaty.

Nottingham is trying, as I say with their tram links (it looks like it's a completely separate track from campus to city ie cars can't use it) but in the city, the cars share the road with the trams in most places, BUT my bus pass doesn't cover the trams, which for an extra few quid, it should.

If you want an example where public transport is an absolute joke, is Leicester, I had a friend who got quoted for a bus pass for a year (To Loughborough) for £600, mine in Nottingham was £200, I think because she was an apprentice, she was entitled to less discount.

Why would she not learn to drive?

But students in Nottingham probably won't end up working in Nottingham so the good Burghers of Nottingham probably don't give a fuck about their future transport choices. The brutal reality is that in the long run public transport will probably be the only commuting choice for 80% of the people graduating today anyway. Cars are being forced out of cities everywhere.

 

[Gwadien]

But students in Nottingham probably won't end up working in Nottingham so the good Burghers of Nottingham probably don't give a fuck about their future transport choices. The brutal reality is that in the long run public transport will probably be the only commuting choice for 80% of the people graduating today anyway. Cars are being forced out of cities everywhere.

Or will we see Ruralisation?

 

[Fweddy]