Politics Scottish Independance.....Thoughts?

[DaGaffer]

Found out in a Lecture that Braveheart used the most in depth research before making it - but hardly used any of it.

There's actually remarkably little historical information about William Wallace other some basic dates and battles stuff.

 

[Gwadien]

There's actually remarkably little historical information about William Wallace other some basic dates and battles stuff.

That's what I'm saying, there was enough evidence to make a really good factually accurate film, but good old Gibson was like nah, fuck the English.

 

[DaGaffer]

That's what I'm saying, there was enough evidence to make a really good factually accurate film, but good old Gibson was like nah, fuck the English.

Funny thing is, I could have forgiven the whole "fuck the English" thing once (after all Edward Longshanks was a bastard to everyone, not just the Scots), but then he showed his true colours when he did it again with The Patriot.

 

[caLLous]

So, Salmond was feisty today. It seems like every politician ever is coming out saying it's a bad idea (and not just the Westminster types like he seems to be pretending). They (almost certainly) won't get to keep the pound, they (almost certainly) won't automatically be an EU member. Weren't they two of the biggest selling points behind the "yes" campaign?

 

[Raven]

Not a problem when everyone will wear cloths spun from unicorn hair.

 

[old.user4556]

You know that bit in Total Recall when it goes "brlrlprlp .. get ya ass to mars .. brrllp .. get ya ass to mars .. brrlplp .. get ya ass to mars"? Well, this is the same, except it's "so what's you Plan B? ... gibber gibber gibber ... so what's you plan B? ... gibber gibber gibber".

(starts ~2:30)


View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfQexFHZ5rE


I'll take that as a "there's no Plan B".

 

[fettoken]

 

[Tom]

You know that bit in Total Recall when it goes "brlrlprlp .. get ya ass to mars .. brrllp .. get ya ass to mars .. brrlplp .. get ya ass to mars"? Well, this is the same, except it's "so what's you Plan B? ... gibber gibber gibber ... so what's you plan B? ... gibber gibber gibber".

(starts ~2:30)


View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfQexFHZ5rE


I'll take that as a "there's no Plan B".

And these fucking idiots wonder why people are so disillusioned with politics.

 

[Poag]

Someone posted this onto reddit last night.

Made for a good read..

http://notesfromnorthbritain.wordpress.com/2014/02/16/the-snps-currency-nightmare/

 

[Gwadien]

Is the only reason Scotland wants the Pound because England (London) will keep them afloat, because we can't let them to go to shit?

Answered my question more or less 12:00 onwards.

Fucking pricks.

 

[Raven]

There are a few more reasons than that

They can't be "in" the euro unless in Europe and they can't be in Europe without applying to be in Europe - which not only could take years but would also need agreement from all member states, some of which would tell them to go fuck themselves.

The pound is a good, strong currency internationally, a pretty safe investment...as far as currencies go.

I like the way she says they can use the pound regardless of a fiscal union. Sure you can! but they would be a sovereign state with absolutely no control over their financial systems. As the article explains, every financial institution in Scotland would soon up sticks and move south of the border.

They could make up their own currency but it would be junked pretty much immediately.

It all seems to be unravelling for them, almost as if they came up with the idea of independence in a pub one night but didn't expect to be taken seriously. I seriously expect them to start painting their faces blue and screaming Freeeedoooooom at every opportunity any day now. Like any national party - they have very limited ideas when the nationalistic bit is dealt with.

Like UKIP, BNP etc. Yeah fuck Europe...then what???

 

[Gumbo]

It is all falling apart for the Yes vote. They'll have to create their own currency entirely. They can't use our pound and even if they do, with no say in how it's managed, we can use that to our advantage nicely. Good opportunity to exploit them there. They won't get in the EU because Spain is afraid of the Catalans. Could we even take it as far as requiring visa's to accept Scots working here? After all if they're not in the EU they won't have any automatic right to work here will they?

I'd be ever so happy if the Yes vote does go through, should mean a lot less Labour seats in Westminster with minimal impact on the Tories, lovely.

 

[MYstIC G]

They can't be "in" the euro unless in Europe and they can't be in Europe without applying to be in Europe - which not only could take years but would also need agreement from all member states, some of which would tell them to go fuck themselves.

Presumably, not that I've read up on this subject, wouldn't the remainder of the UK be one of those states? If things went ahead and turned to shit I could see a very strong reaction from England going forward of "you wanted out, you got out, now you can stay the fuck out" simply because people do pointless things like that.

 

[Raven]

Yep, we could. I don't think we would because it would be pretty petty and most probably end up being a ballache for us in the long run because of the exodus from Scotland. Spain are the big ones that would say no, just because of the precedent it would set for Catalonia.

Interestingly if this nationalistic bollocks goes to the extreme then...

http://www.geocurrents.info/geopolitics/new-york-times-list-potential-new-countries-others-well

 

[DaGaffer]

It is all falling apart for the Yes vote. They'll have to create their own currency entirely. They can't use our pound and even if they do, with no say in how it's managed, we can use that to our advantage nicely. Good opportunity to exploit them there. They won't get in the EU because Spain is afraid of the Catalans. Could we even take it as far as requiring visa's to accept Scots working here? After all if they're not in the EU they won't have any automatic right to work here will they?

I'd be ever so happy if the Yes vote does go through, should mean a lot less Labour seats in Westminster with minimal impact on the Tories, lovely.

I'm pretty sure they will get in the EU, just not on the terms they claimed they would (e.g. with all the Agreements and opt-outs the UK has). Spain wouldn't be able to stop them entering as a new accession state, but of course that comes with a lot of strings attached.

 

[MYstIC G]

I'm pretty sure they will get in the EU, just not on the terms they claimed they would (e.g. with all the Agreements and opt-outs the UK has). Spain wouldn't be able to stop them entering as a new accession state, but of course that comes with a lot of strings attached.

The Euro being one of them I believe?

 

[DaGaffer]

The Euro being one of them I believe?

Indeed. The Copenhagen Criteria (look under Chapter 17). Not negotiable except in the timing of implementation

 

[Draylor]

It almost seems like the 'no' campaign have been getting scared in recent weeks.

Telling a Scotsman he cant do something rarely has the desired effect, are they actually trying to lose what should have been an easy win for them?

 

[DaGaffer]

It almost seems like the 'no' campaign have been getting scared in recent weeks.

Telling a Scotsman he cant do something rarely has the desired effect, are they actually trying to lose what should have been an easy win for them?

That seems to be the angle the Nats are going for; "don't tell a Scotsman what to do", like they have reality bending powers or something. This is where I came in on this thread, if you're going to vote for independence, you need to be aware of the cons as well as the pros, and denying any cons exist is simply dishonest.

 

[old.user4556]

There's one thing that's curious to me that no one has quite answered fully: why is that David Cameron, Better Together and Westminster want Scotland to stay part of the Union?

If Scotland are such a drag and drain on the UK, why not let us get on with it, perhaps even encourage it?

As @Gumbo has mentioned, Labour in England (without Scotland) would be finished and the rUK would be exclusively Tory. Surely an independent Scotland is in Osborne's and Cameron's best interests?

If you don't agree, then why not?

 

[DaGaffer]

There's one thing that's curious to me that no one has quite answered fully: why is that David Cameron, Better Together and Westminster want Scotland to stay part of the Union?

If Scotland are such a drag and drain on the UK, why not let us get on with it, perhaps even encourage it?

As @Gumbo has mentioned, Labour in England (without Scotland) would be finished and the rUK would be exclusively Tory. Surely an independent Scotland is in Osborne's and Cameron's best interests?

If you don't agree, then why not?

Because losing Scotland will be an absolute pain in the arse. Make no mistake, it will affect the UK badly. The short term things will be; renegotiating the EU rebate, negotiating with Scotland itself (the Czechoslovak split created 100,000 treaty documents between the two countries alone), redesigning the NHS, the armed forces, you name it. It will be a drag on the UK economy just sorting all that shit out. Then there's the long term issue; what does it do to the rest of the Union? In my opinion, nothing good. Then, what about the UN? The UK's (shaky) place on the Security Council? There are lots of bad things about losing Scotland, but that doesn't mean Salmond and Co face a bed of roses either.

 

[Gumbo]

I'm pretty sure they will get in the EU, just not on the terms they claimed they would (e.g. with all the Agreements and opt-outs the UK has). Spain wouldn't be able to stop them entering as a new accession state, but of course that comes with a lot of strings attached.

Interesting, that's not what Barroso was saying http://www.scotsman.com/news/politi...or-scotland-to-join-eu-says-barroso-1-3308359 .

Spain won't even acknowledge the existence of an independant Kosovo, let alone allow them membership. The Spanish are scared shitless of the Catalans and the Basques. They're not about to start allowing this kind of precedent to be set.

It's not a question that is in Scotlands hands.

There really isn't going to be a yes vote.

 

[DaGaffer]

Interesting, that's not what Barroso was saying http://www.scotsman.com/news/politi...or-scotland-to-join-eu-says-barroso-1-3308359 .

Spain won't even acknowledge the existence of an independant Kosovo, let alone allow them membership. The Spanish are scared shitless of the Catalans and the Basques. They're not about to start allowing this kind of precedent to be set.

It's not a question that is in Scotlands hands.

There really isn't going to be a yes vote.

That's because Kosovo isn't an independent state, yet. But if Kosovo is recognised by the UN as an independent state, they don't have a membership veto on them; they need a majority vote in Parliament and a unanimous vote by The Commission to get in (which gives Spain a slim bit of leverage, but the Commission isn't supposed to be biased towards one's home states). Same with Scotland. Spain can definitely veto Scotland trying to sneak in as an existing member, which is what the Fishy twins are claiming they have a right to, because that does need a unanimous vote in the Parliament to change the rules (and to be honest I don't think it would just be Spain who will veto that; there are lots of reasons for lots of countries not to give Scotland a free pass).

 

[Gumbo]

If they need a unanimous vote and Spain will not vote for entry, then it is surely a de facto veto? That's sort of the point. To suggest that the Spanish representatives on the commission would vote any way other than how they are instructed to by Spain is naive.

 

[Job]

Presumably we could just walk in ten years after a yes vote and simply gather up the remains of Scotland and rplace the Wallace statue with Thatcher.

 

[old.user4556]

David Bowie wants Scotland to stay.

Well, that's me convinced.

 

[Poag]

Presumably we could just walk in ten years after a yes vote and simply gather up the remains of Scotland and rplace the Wallace statue with Thatcher.

Not too dissimilar to how it originally went down......

 

[DaGaffer]

Not too dissimilar to how it originally went down......

...and the bonkers optimism in the face of reality still exists to this day, and ironically the two groups most likely to fuck it up? The English and the Spanish. Plus ça change...

 

[Job]

Presumably theyll have to give the NHS back as well...hows that going to play out for all the doctors and nurses.

 

[Poag]

Presumably theyll have to give the NHS back as well...hows that going to play out for all the doctors and nurses.

NHS Scotland.

Already exists....