Politics Scottish Independance.....Thoughts?

[Scouse]

Be grateful, Scouse. BE GRATEFUL

Don't you dare question our political system, for if you do I'll bring up your views on capitalism in a naive and childish manner, despite this being a discussion on scottish independence.

BE GRATEFUL AND DON'T QUESTION ANYTHING!

Fixed

 

[Himse]

I always believe people who favour socialism, communism etc are actually loopy.

 

[Raven]

Fixed

That isn't what I meant at all, and you know it.

You can bemoan the current system all you like from the comfort of your capitalism paid for stuff. It just means you are a hypocrite.

Its like climate change whiners moaning about it whenever they hear about it on their 50inch tellie in their gas central heated house.

 

[Raven]

Anyway, those in power will lie and cheat to stay in power but only because we let them. The system does however work, if used properly.

 

[Scouse]

That isn't what I meant at all, and you know it.

Rubbish. It's exactly what you did and what you're continuing to do.

 

[MYstIC G]

I like Britain as it is and I can't understand why areas of it would want to break away

I think this point is being massively overlooked to be honest. I'm all for the status quo. All this bullshit boils down to is drawing lines on a fucking piece of paper and taking money off of people for having the arguments about where the line should be and supplying the pencils and erasers.

 

[Deebs]

Personally I think the UK/GB are better off if Scotland stay in the Union, if they decide to go though then they sever all ties with us and go alone. Oh and when it all goes to shit they can fuck right off when they ask to rejoin the Union.

 

[Scouse]

Personally I think the UK/GB are better off if Scotland stay in the Union

Not being antagonsitic, but why?

It's not as if the piece of the world they call scotland will go anywhere...

and:

Oh and when it all goes to shit they can fuck right off when they ask to rejoin the Union.

Surely you allow family members to make mistakes? Your unit becomes stronger for it too - you can say to the Welsh, or the Northern Irish - look what happened to the jocks? And we had them back. Aren't we lovely and fluffy. Why would you want to leave?

 

[Deebs]

The past several hundred years as a Union has proven to be effective. Why break something that works?

 

[Scouse]

The past several hundred years as a Union has proven to be effective. Why break something that works?

I don't think inertia is a good reason not to shake things up.

As for it "working" - it's working for some. In the opinion of others it's not. There's not a lot that can't be solved with a lot more democracy tbh.

 

[Deebs]

I don't think inertia is a good reason not to shake things up.

As for it "working" - it's working for some. In the opinion of others it's not. There's not a lot that can't be solved with a lot more democracy tbh.

It is working for the majority. The referendum is democracy working at its best, let the people decide. I think it will be a "stay in the Union" win.

 

[Scouse]

The referendum is democracy working at its best, let the people decide. I think it will be a "stay in the Union" win.

I think it is too. And I think that'll be the result.

However, the campaigning is democracy at its worst, unfortunately.

 

[Raven]

I'm not going to disagree with that. But again, mandatory voting would soon raise more questions and mean debate is throughout society rather than just in a few places. More questions, less bullshit.

 

[old.user4556]

I'm going to try to address this as objectively as possible, my opinions have changed over the past 12 months as this has played out.

As a Scot and a Brit with a vote on the 18th of September, whatever happens directly impacts me, my family and a lot of friends. There's a huge spectrum of opinion in Scotland; I've heard it all. I've also read "Scotland's Future" cover to cover, so I am best placed to give you some insight.

Firstly, lets be clear - the SNP's (current...) proposal of Independence, is not independence. By entering a currency union with rUK, keeping the pound and the BoE means that Scotland will not have control / power over it's finances. How on earth can you possibly claim to be independent when the Bank of England, based in London, has control over your interest rates? What happens if Scotland does have a serious upturn in the economy and a problem with inflation? Can we adjust the interest rates to suit ourselves? No we can't. How is that independence? The currency is the crux of the argument for most of us because our salaries, mortgages and pensions all hinge on it. Salmond knows that a "Plan B" or invented currency will not be palatable to voters, hence the currency union proposition by promising the Scottish people that "nothing will change!. This version of independence being brewed is closer to Devolution Maximus than to outright Independence.

That leads me onto my next point.

Devo Max is something that I DO want, I would like to see more control flow to Holyrood (or Wholeyrude if you're anti Devo) because Holyrood works for us and it further removes the Westminster / Tory / Etonian bitter taste that seems to present itself in some of my peers' opinions on politics. In addition, I do not want to lose the pound - keeping the pound will make or break my vote. Osborne, Balls and Alexander know all too well that there's a thirst for comfort and they've played the ultimate trump card (or bluff, depending on your opinion) by telling us Scots "nae chance". The financial sector population in Edinburgh is second only to London, we suspect that "no pound" ultimately could mean "no financial jobs in Edinburgh" and that's something that those in the financial industry do not want to risk. Osborne has those voters by the balls.

If Yes do not come up with a valid and workable currency plan, then Yes will lose.

I also see this from the perspective of rUK, it must be fucking annoying to hear that Salmond wants to take the best bits of rUK, expect rUK to bail us out but wants rUK to fuck off with all the shite. I fear that there will be a rise in "England v Scotland" resentment as a result - you only have to look at the comments on the Daily Mail to see massively upvoted opinions of "can we have a vote on kicking Scotland out? Scrounging bastards" and "they'll be back with a begging bowl within a year" etc. I will say this though: you're missing the point. It's not got anything to do with being rich, or being poor - it's got to do with seizing a once in a generation opportunity to really, really shake up a political system that (in my opinion) doesn't work for a lot of people both in England and Scotland. There are large bits of the Yes campaign that very much appeal to me and my peers:

- we do not want to piss £100bil up the wall on nuclear weapons
- we do not want to be sucked into illegal wars, or pile tax payers money into being on the world stage with crusades
- we do want to be in control of our own taxation with a simplified tax regime
- we're thoroughly bored of the unelected House Of Lords and want that removed
- it's getting insulting being told what you can and can't do by a bunch of out-of-touch wankers at Westminster (just look how long it took Cameron to get involved in the floods)
- senior politicians agree that Scotland can pay it's way
- Vince Cable is a fucking wee dick

My friends who are Yes zealots do not give two fucks about Scotland going down the pan (for a start, they don't believe it will), but at least it was a decision that a) was made by the majority of Scots voters b) the Scots will have no one to blame but themselves c) it'll be up to the Scottish Parliament, the MSPs and the Scottish people to do something about it. That's a far more appealing political position than being stuck with decisions made in London. Let's put it this way: if Scotland was currently independent and voting to join the Union, would they go for it? Would they want to give up oil / gas revenues, their tax control / governance in Edinburgh in favour of a parliament 500 miles away with very little Scottish representation? Would they want to spend billions on nuclear weapons and wars abroad that we no say in? Would they want to commission an unelected house of peers? Probably not.

For me personally, I'm currently voting No. The status quo, regardless of all the shite that comes with it, works for me. My company is headquarted in London, I have colleagues all over the UK and in many other countries. I fear that a Yes vote could disrupt all that. On the other hand, for the greater good, there is a lot of a Yes vote that I do want and hence why a Devo Max position is the best and most appealing compromise for me personally.

 

[Cadelin]

- we do not want to piss £100bil up the wall on nuclear weapons
- we do not want to be sucked into illegal wars, or pile tax payers money into being on the world stage with crusades
- we do want to be in control of our own taxation with a simplified tax regime
- we're thoroughly bored of the unelected House Of Lords and want that removed
- it's getting insulting being told what you can and can't do by a bunch of out-of-touch wankers at Westminster (just look how long it took Cameron to get involved in the floods)
- senior politicians agree that Scotland can pay it's way
- Vince Cable is a fucking wee dick

- But you still want your country to be secure and part of NATO? Military spending would be required one way or another. How is it that much different from say HS2? Or are you just scared of the word "nuclear"?

- Everybody south of the border just loves getting sucked into illegal wars!! With hindsight it is very easy to say what would be done differently. The UK is a small player on the world stage but it does still have some power. Take for example Syria, by voting that we would not take part in any military action (lead by the US) it was actually enough to convince them not to bomb the crap out of Assad. An independent Scotland will still be affected by world events, but it would have no say in what happens.

- Entirely unachievable. Taxation is linked to the currency you use. If you want to use the pound, Westminster will control it, if you want to use the Euro, Brussels will control it. If you want to go it alone, outside the EU your economy is fucked. Every politician wants too simplify things, in the same way that they want efficiency savings so they can cut funding without affecting "front line services".

- What is the replacement for the House of Lords? Who will provide the checks and balances? It might not be a perfect system, and there are certainly ways to improve it but it does do an important role.

- The Scottish vote has a very significant impact on who is in power in Westminster. Before the last election we had a Scottish PM and Chancellor. We had had a Scottish Chancellor since 97. They screwed up massively and got voted out. That is how democracy works! If you can show that even when Gordon and co were in power Scotland was not being represented properly then maybe this argument has some merit.

- I think most people are in agreement, with oil and gas revenues, Scotland can pay its way (and possibly do better). Without the oil and gas it certainly can't. Oil and gas will run out eventually and there isn't enough to create a global fund like Dubai etc. A great long term move...

- Vote for independence because someone in the Cabinet (that will almost certainly not be after the next election) is a fucking dick wee?

 

[MYstIC G]

we're thoroughly bored of the unelected House Of Lords and want that removed

What is the replacement for the House of Lords? Who will provide the checks and balances? It might not be a perfect system, and there are certainly ways to improve it but it does do an important role.

This to me is a massive point, you'd rather just have politicians being able to straight up do what they want? Are you insane man!

I'd rather there was more of this shit, the more they argue with one another, the less they achieve (i.e. fuck about with) and the easier it is for us all to just get on with our freaking lives.

 

[old.user4556]

- But you still want your country to be secure and part of NATO? Military spending would be required one way or another. How is it that much different from say HS2? Or are you just scared of the word "nuclear"?

- Everybody south of the border just loves getting sucked into illegal wars!! With hindsight it is very easy to say what would be done differently. The UK is a small player on the world stage but it does still have some power. Take for example Syria, by voting that we would not take part in any military action (lead by the US) it was actually enough to convince them not to bomb the crap out of Assad. An independent Scotland will still be affected by world events, but it would have no say in what happens.

- Entirely unachievable. Taxation is linked to the currency you use. If you want to use the pound, Westminster will control it, if you want to use the Euro, Brussels will control it. If you want to go it alone, outside the EU your economy is fucked. Every politician wants too simplify things, in the same way that they want efficiency savings so they can cut funding without affecting "front line services".

- What is the replacement for the House of Lords? Who will provide the checks and balances? It might not be a perfect system, and there are certainly ways to improve it but it does do an important role.

- The Scottish vote has a very significant impact on who is in power in Westminster. Before the last election we had a Scottish PM and Chancellor. We had had a Scottish Chancellor since 97. They screwed up massively and got voted out. That is how democracy works! If you can show that even when Gordon and co were in power Scotland was not being represented properly then maybe this argument has some merit.

- I think most people are in agreement, with oil and gas revenues, Scotland can pay its way (and possibly do better). Without the oil and gas it certainly can't. Oil and gas will run out eventually and there isn't enough to create a global fund like Dubai etc. A great long term move...

- Vote for independence because someone in the Cabinet (that will almost certainly not be after the next election) is a fucking dick wee?

Jesus Christ, you're missing the point of my whole post and making the same fucktarded generalisation that the Scots are one glorious whole.

- if not having nukes means not being part of Nato, then so be it - the point here is that we don't want to waste the money on them
- you're so utterly wrong re taxation
- I don't care what the replacement for the HoL is, you're missing the point (again) that we did not vote them in
- having a Scotsman as chancellor making UK wide decisions is completely different to elected MSPs making decisions in Scotland, for Scotland
- the oil and gas argument is a minor point, everyone knows it will run out eventually
- hnnnng, you're missing the point!! The vote is in 7 months, what is said right now to the voters in Scotland is having an impact. Idiots like Vince Cable saying "pah, RBS will have to move to London from Edinburgh" is just utterly laughable and further bolstering the Yes vote.

Edit: look at the point that I made about the Yes vote not caring - if Salmond said "we're going to go back to trading cattle for a currency" the Yes vote, would still vote yes, regardless if it's the most fucking unworkable mistake the world has seen.

 

[Gwadien]

What's worrying from my point of view, from the amount of Scottish peeps I've spoken to is that amount of people that say 'We're not bothered, it's good as it is, so we're not voting'

Surely if that's the case you need to vote no?

 

[old.user4556]

Voter apathy is a danger and we could sleepwalk into a Yes vote.

 

[Gwadien]

Voter apathy is a danger and we could sleepwalk into a Yes vote.

Should force people to watch Braveheart and the question should be; 'Are the English really that bad?'

 

[Raven]

- we do not want to piss £100bil up the wall on nuclear weapons
- we do not want to be sucked into illegal wars, or pile tax payers money into being on the world stage with crusades
- we do want to be in control of our own taxation with a simplified tax regime
- we're thoroughly bored of the unelected House Of Lords and want that removed
- it's getting insulting being told what you can and can't do by a bunch of out-of-touch wankers at Westminster (just look how long it took Cameron to get involved in the floods)
- senior politicians agree that Scotland can pay it's way
- Vince Cable is a fucking wee dick

I agree with all that. I wonder if I can get the ball rolling with an English independence movement. Leave it all to the Welsh.

 

[old.user4556]

That's the thing, I think lots of Brits would agree with most of that and the Yes camp know they can buy votes with those promises. The SNP know that it'll never be possible with Westminster control, but vote Yes and the Scots can get it,

 

[Ctuchik]

There's no need to be totally independent, just try and get the same deal Isle of Man have.

What little i know about crown dependencies kinda makes it look like UK have more obligations to them then they have to UK...

Which kinda makes it look too good to be true, so what's the catch?

 

[Cadelin]

There's no need to be totally independent, just try and get the same deal Isle of Man have.

What little i know about crown dependencies kinda makes it look like UK have more obligations to them then they have to UK...

Which kinda makes it look too good to be true, so what's the catch?

They are tiny. Giving them a better deal may not be "fair" but in the grand scheme of things it doesn't matter.

 

[Embattle]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-26215963

 

[soze]

My family in Scotland do seem to be doing the head in the sand "fuck England" type thing.

I personally believe if the want to leave the union they should leave it lock stock. The should not get to keep our currency but be able to make decisions that puts our finances at risk. I know not everyone has been affected by the current economic climate. But I have been and I know plenty of others who have. So to think that Scotland could offer everyone a mortgage then just call on the Bank of England to cover the loses does not sit right.

I also wonder what will happen with the military. If Scotland is its own sovereign nation the Trident program will have to be taken out of Clyde. Also what about the rest of the military do we just cut an 1/8th off and give it to them? Do we have to kick every Scottish person out of the new British Army? And with everyone being so scared about rogue Nuclear nations do we have to then shut down the Scottish power stations or do they get to keep them?

 

[Litmus]

Give them independence, build a big wall. And when they come back begging to rejoin do it in exchange of all the oil fields in the north sea.

 

[Poag]

Sorry ti snip out most of an awesome post, i think you have put everything down nicely and agree with everything you've said...except..

My friends who are Yes zealots do not give two fucks about Scotland going down the pan (for a start, they don't believe it will), but at least it was a decision that a) was made by the majority of Scots voters b) the Scots will have no one to blame but themselves

They will blame England, for not letting them have the pound. I'll even put money on that being the case if a Yes vote occurs and it all goes down the pan in the short/middle term.

I also fully expect what will happen on currency if a yes vote occurs to be...Scotland starts (or continues) printing Scottish Pound notes and the like. But claim its there own currency. Causing a ruckas near the boarder on whats accepted and whats not. Yay confusion

 

[Scouse]

Should force people to watch Braveheart and the question should be; 'Are the English really that bad?'

Made up film is made up.

 

[Gwadien]

Made up film is made up.

Found out in a Lecture that Braveheart used the most in depth research before making it - but hardly used any of it.