Politics Scottish Independance.....Thoughts?

Trem

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I was wondering what our Scottish chums on here think about Scotland going it alone. I think I remember Big G saying he considers himself British and I am fairly sure the sex lord that is Leggy also thinks the same. I can understand where this comes from with some of the Scottish people but jesus christ it's been quite a while since England were shits............sort of.

I know some of the Scots want the North sea oil etc but does it not receive more money from London than what is made from the oil?

I like Britain as it is and I can't understand why areas of it would want to break away, wouldn't Wales be right royally fucked if it did?

Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.........................fuck me it's early..........................painkillers for the win!!
 

DaGaffer

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If Scotland want to go I'd say good luck to them, but...they need to go into it with their eyes wide open. Not once have I seen the SNP admit that they're not in control of certain events, like a. currency and b. how they enter the EU. In both cases they've presented their vision of how its going to work with no mention of what happens if it doesn't. This is now coming back to bite them on the arse with the currency union idea (because as many people expected except the SNP, the government has told them to fuck off, and so have Labour and the Lib-Dems), and I'm sure its definitely going to cause them problems with the EU.
 

Raven

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Its like a failed marriage. You don't keep a joint bank account after the divorce...its just not practical.
 

Scouse

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the government has told them to fuck off, and so have Labour and the Lib-Dems
Well, of course they have.

They stand to lose big time. No longer have a say in Scotland at all. They're going to unite in favour of themselves and say whatever it takes to stay in power. The first, most important, rule of politics is to stay in power whatever the cost.

Whether they're telling the truth, hardlining, or whether they're lying as a collective bunch, is immaterial tbh.
 

DaGaffer

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Well, of course they have.

They stand to lose big time. No longer have a say in Scotland at all. They're going to unite in favour of themselves and say whatever it takes to stay in power. The first, most important, rule of politics is to stay in power whatever the cost.

Whether they're telling the truth, hardlining, or whether they're lying as a collective bunch, is immaterial tbh.
What are you dribbling on about? In the case of the currency union question the Government has been pretty much forced to come out and state its views because Alex Salmond has been striding about the place saying a currency union is going to happen because "it makes sense for Scotland and the UK". Westminster politicians have actually avoided an answer for a while, but because Salmond is now commenting on what makes sense for the UK, they kind of have to. And in their answer they are entirely correct. Yes, there are benefits to both parties to currency union, but for the UK (not Scotland) there are a whole bunch of risks; not least that its a stated policy of the Nationalists that they would reduce corporate tax rates by 3% below the UK's rate as soon as they were independent (cue, flight of UK businesses to PO Boxes in Edinburgh). Then there's the risk of debt default that would have to be underwritten by the BoE unless Westminster controls large aspects of Scottish fiscal policy (and how is that independence exactly?) Salmond refuses to even acknowledge the risks (he was at it again on Newsnight last night), which is fairly typical.

The most galling thing about the whole currency union thing is that the Nats only really want it because the alternative scenarios all lead to one place (membership of the Euro) which they know would kill the Yes vote stone dead. Salmond has in the past described Scotland continuing with Sterling as "a millstone around Scotland's neck", and even if he got a currency union, he'd junk it as soon as it was convenient to do so, which is of course another risk to the UK that he fails to mention.
 

Raven

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They would have to be in Europe to have the Euro - which isn't guaranteed anyway. Spain for one would probably veto automatic entry because of the precedent it would set for Catalonia.

I just hope they (the Scots) do the most practical thing and stay and we can put this sorry mess behind us, unlike the Canada/Quebec fuck about.
 

Exioce

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Was on the fence for a long time. Read the full whitepaper recently and...
The moral and economic arguments won me over. Even though we're already one of the richest countries in the world, I believe we can do even better for ourselves as an independent nation than as a peripheral part of a larger one.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00GXC6QI4
 

Scouse

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What are you dribbling on about?
I'm saying I couldn't give a fuck whether monetary union works for scotland, the UK, both or not.

And, when it boils down to it - neither do our politicians.


Don't be fooled into thinking they give a shit - the only thing they care about is that if skirtland gets its independence then they will never again have legislative power over the country - and they'd say anything, anything, to stop that loss of power happening.


I, personally, don't give two shits either way. It won't make an appreciable difference to my life in any way I can recognise on a daily basis. I'll still be able to go mountain biking and camping there, I'll still be able to eat their food, drink their beer, shag their women. Meh.
 

DaGaffer

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They would have to be in Europe to have the Euro - which isn't guaranteed anyway. Spain for one would probably veto automatic entry because of the precedent it would set for Catalonia.

I just hope they (the Scots) do the most practical thing and stay and we can put this sorry mess behind us, unlike the Canada/Quebec fuck about.
Membership of the EU is part of the Nationalist manifesto, always has been. But that's the problem; they don't want membership as a new accession state because...new accession states have to join the Euro. No ifs, no buts, its in the Lisbon Treaty. Scotland, in full on cake-and-eat-it mode, are trying to say that Scotland isn't a new a accession state and should be allowed in with the same terms and conditions as apply to the current UK (which is a fudge based on Scotland as a geographic entity, not a political one). Once again, Salmond and Co are going round say this will happen, and once again, a few voices in the EU are saying "er, that's not a given at all", such as...as you pointed out...Spain. Spain wouldn't be able to block Scotland's membership as a new accession state, but the legal opinion seems to be they would be able to block Scotland's entry as the UK with the serial numbers filed off, because changes to the Lisbon Treaty to allow it would require a unanimous agreement from every EU member.

It really fascinates me that Salmond gets all indignant about "foreign" interference in the referendum, whilst simultaneously talking about what other countries will do (e.g. the UK and the EU).

I'm saying I couldn't give a fuck whether monetary union works for scotland, the UK, both or not.

And, when it boils down to it - neither do our politicians.
It doesn't really matter if that's true or not; in the case of currency union its not just about Scotland, its also about risks to their governance of the UK as well. Look at this way, if the UK had to bail out Scotland because Alex Salmond went off and bought everyone in Scotland a solid gold house and a rocket car, it would affect you personally.
 

Scouse

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It doesn't really matter if that's true or not; in the case of currency union its not just about Scotland, its also about risks to their governance of the UK as well. Look at this way, if the UK had to bail out Scotland because Alex Salmond went off and bought everyone in Scotland a solid gold house and a rocket car, it would affect you personally.
Way to ignore my point completely Gaff - especially when I've posted a clarification after you accused me of dribbling. You could have just acknowledged the point I was making...


Either way - I still don't give a fuck. You're wrong - it won't affect me in any way I'd notice.

In the same way as the worst economic depression in living memory has only affected my day-to-day life because it's constantly on the news - so it's bored the living shit out of me.

Skirtland being not in the UK or part of it doesn't change a thing. Not in any meangful way that will change my life in a noticeable fashion. Bring on the gold cars for the scots - at least it'll be amusing.
 

DaGaffer

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Was on the fence for a long time. Read the full whitepaper recently and...
The moral and economic arguments won me over. Even though we're already one of the richest countries in the world, I believe we can do even better for ourselves as an independent nation than as a peripheral part of a larger one.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00GXC6QI4
But you won't be an independent nation. You'll either give sovereignty back to the UK in a currency union, or give sovereignty to the EU in a currency union. No-one is suggesting Scotland can do a Norway and go it alone completely. Which is the true definition of an independent nation.
 

DaGaffer

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Way to ignore my point completely Gaff - especially when I've posted a clarification after you accused me of dribbling. You could have just acknowledged the point I was making...


Either way - I still don't give a fuck. You're wrong - it won't affect me in any way I'd notice.

In the same way as the worst economic depression in living memory has only affected my day-to-day life because it's constantly on the news - so it's bored the living shit out of me.

Skirtland being not in the UK or part of it doesn't change a thing. Not in any meangful way that will change my life in a noticeable fashion. Bring on the gold cars for the scots - at least it'll be amusing.
I'm not ignoring your point, I'm pointing out that its not actually relevant.

As for the rest, you might feel differently if you get cancer and there are no beds because we've had to pay for tartan rocket cars.
 

Scouse

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As for the rest, you might feel differently if you get cancer and there are no beds because we've had to pay for tartan rocket cars.
For a start, you jumped to an extreme economic scenario to justify a viewpoint - which is always dodgy ground.

Secondly - if I get incurable cancer and there are tartan rocket cars I'll be driving one at high speed around the country running from the pigs, fuelled with steak, sugar and heroin. Ain't no way I'm going to die in a hospital unless I'm unconsious and someone else has taken me there. Nosirree.


Thirdly - yes, the fact that the "scottish question" is being talked about in important tones by arseholes IS pertinent. Pertinent in that it's going to make fuck all difference to day-to-day lives in exactly the same way that voting in general elections does.
 

Raven

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Salmond is promising everyone free solid gold rocket cars though...pretty much
 

Scouse

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Salmond is promising everyone free solid gold rocket cars though...pretty much
Same as the UK parties predicting gloom, doom and eternal damnation.

It's two sets of arseholes jockeying for power, neither of which give a fuck about the people who live there. Salmond sees the prize and will promise anything, our government sees the loss of power and will threaten anything.


Why are we surprised about how the shower of arseholes who are our second-level government work? Scotland would still have to work for the economic benefit of the rich, whoever it's beholden to in government.
 

DaGaffer

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Same as the UK parties predicting gloom, doom and eternal damnation.

It's two sets of arseholes jockeying for power, neither of which give a fuck about the people who live there. Salmond sees the prize and will promise anything, our government sees the loss of power and will threaten anything.


Why are we surprised about how the shower of arseholes who are our second-level government work? Scotland would still have to work for the economic benefit of the rich, whoever it's beholden to in government.
Look, I don't give a fuck if Scotland goes, I barely pay tax in the UK anyway, but its pretty naive to think that "life in the UK" will be unaffected by lopping off the top 400 miles of the country. There will be political effects (a new Boundary Commission probably), economic effects (depending on what's agreed), social effects (a rise of English nationalism? Has to be a possibility), and who knows what else? (I can see some interesting fallout coming in Northern Ireland for example) But I actually think all that isn't a problem either. What I do find worrying is that the Scottish people are being sold one vision of what's going to happen, and every time anyone points out all the ways that vision could be derailed, the Nats get all pissed off and moan about interference. There are no "Plan B's" coming out of Holyrood.
 

Scouse

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There are no "Plan B's" coming out of Holyrood.
You don't have a "Plan B" and have an effective campaign. You shoot for a vision - one that sells, not necessarily one that's real.

If they had a "Plan B" they'd be accused of being wishy-washy and would quite succesfully undermine themselves.

The campaining on both sides in all elections is dominated by bullshit.


Evidence:
every time anyone points out all the ways that vision could be derailed, the Nats get all pissed off and moan about interference.
That's tactics. An appeal to the scots sense of longing for self-determination. Not that they'd really get it under the new gov. Meet the new boss...

It's all bullshit. From both sides.


As for the effects you mentioned above, once again, no effect on my day-to-day life. Just like the biggest economic crisis ever has had no discernible effect on my day-to-day - and scotland is piffle compared to that.
 

DaGaffer

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You don't have a "Plan B" and have an effective campaign. You shoot for a vision - one that sells, not necessarily one that's real.

If they had a "Plan B" they'd be accused of being wishy-washy and would quite succesfully undermine themselves.

The campaining on both sides in all elections is dominated by bullshit.


Evidence:


That's tactics. An appeal to the scots sense of longing for self-determination. Not that they'd really get it under the new gov. Meet the new boss...

It's all bullshit. From both sides.


As for the effects you mentioned above, once again, no effect on my day-to-day life. Just like the biggest economic crisis ever has had no discernible effect on my day-to-day - and scotland is piffle compared to that.
This is isn't an election campaign that can be fixed five years down the line if you fuck it up. If Scotland goes, its big boy's rules and the Scottish people will have to deal with the consequences. Yes what the politicians are doing is bullshit and wrong, but where are the voices from the Scottish people asking the "what if..." questions? Because if I lived there I certainly would be. And if they didn't give me an answer it would be a No.
 

Scouse

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This is isn't an election campaign that can be fixed five years down the line if you fuck it up. If Scotland goes, its big boy's rules and the Scottish people will have to deal with the consequences. Yes what the politicians are doing is bullshit and wrong, but where are the voices from the Scottish people asking the "what if..." questions? Because if I lived there I certainly would be. And if they didn't give me an answer it would be a No.
Maybe they're looking at it in the same way as they look at a general election? Maybe the only thing that really matters is the desire to be independent - and fuck the rest because they've got one side saying "dooooooooom" whilst the other screams "freeeeeeedom".

With polticians like that why do you expect anyone to be deeply involved. We're treated like children by our polticians and we live up to it - but with good reason. It probably doesn't matter and either way we're unable to make an informed decision because of the total absence of intelligent debate, and the influence of interested parties.

Its why Jeremy Paxman doesn't bother to vote in UK general elections - our premier commentator understands that the action is utterly pointless.

Maybe, just maybe, it won't be ground-shakingly astonishing to be not part of the UK. They'll still get up, go to work, yadda yadda yadda.

View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYMD_W_r3Fg
 

Embattle

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I don't actually think the majority of the rest of the UK cares one way or the other. Personally Salmond is naturally sugar coating the idea of independence but that is to be expected because part of the whole sugar coating was probably to attract the bees from Westminster and make them out to be the bad guys.
 

Raven

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You should strip naked and live in the woods, Scouse.
 

Scouse

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You should strip naked and live in the woods, Scouse.
Why? Because I don't think it'll make a difference? Stripping naked and living in the woods would fuck my comfortable life over considerably, unlike any result from this referendum.

I like Townshend's reasoning when he described the song above and is relevant to this current poltical ballache:
Pete Townshend said:
It is not precisely a song that decries revolution – it suggests that we will indeed fight in the streets – but that revolution, like all action, can have results we cannot predict. Don't expect to see what you expect to see. Expect nothing and you might gain everything. The song was meant to let politicians and revolutionaries alike know that what lay in the centre of my life was not for sale, and could not be co-opted into any obvious cause. [...] From 1971 – when I wrote "Won't Get Fooled Again" – to 1985, there was a transition in me from refusal to be co-opted by activists, to a refusal to be judged by people I found jaded and compliant in Thatcher's Britain
 

Raven

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Why? Because I don't think it'll make a difference? Stripping naked and living in the woods would fuck my comfortable life over considerably, unlike any result from this referendum.

I like Townshend's reasoning when he described the song above and is relevant to this current poltical ballache:
Your comfortable life is a direct result of everything you seem to hate, capitalism. If there was no capitalism you would be living naked, in the woods.

If there wasn't leadership nothing would ever get done. Leadership is still voted in. The problem is the amount of people who actually think about it and bother voting on it. If you had 100% turnout policies and such would be very different.
 

Scouse

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Your comfortable life is a direct result of everything you seem to hate, capitalism. If there was no capitalism you would be living naked, in the woods
That is obviously complete unadulterated 100% bullshit that takes about half a second's genuine thought to realise.
 

Raven

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Well you probably wouldn't have a computer, or a house of your choosing, or a car, or a bike or proper effective health care or football to watch on a TV that you don't have.

People don't make stuff for a hobby they do it to make money.

It's those loons that complain about it from the comfort of their own home via their Ipad. I have more respect for those people that think everyone is out to get them and live in a bunker in the Arizona desert tbh.
 

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