Politics POLL: Brexit Withdrawal Agreement

[Job]

Jesus. Not UK individuals' reputations. The reputation of the UK as a serious country that can negotiate agreements and stick to them. Throughout this process we've had various characters saying that they'll sign something but not enforce it or sign a binding agreement that they intend to welch out of. This shit actually matters. Other countries listen. If you think any major economy is desperate to do us a trade deal after this then you are wrong. Why waste their precious time and skilled negotiators when they could be using it with a serious country that does its homework and acts in good faith?

Exactly thats why we have to go through with brexit..calls for a second ref are idiotic..that would destroy our reputation.

 

[Wij]

No, we could not negotiate a deal until we triggered Article 50.

Untrue. Article 50 is the only way to exit under existing treaties. We could have created a new treaty to exit. Article 50 was designed to give all the cards to the EU and not the exiting member. Invoking it was always going to lead here.

/edit: unless we'd abandoned the red-lines and gone with a Norway option.

 

[Wij]

Exactly thats why we have to go through with brexit..calls for a second ref are idiotic..that would destroy our reputation.

Not even remotely comparable. We would look like a country that has been in turmoil and trying to recover. We wouldn't look like untrustworthy spivs.

The terms we would get in new trade deals even after 10-20 years would be awful to factor this in. Follow anyone who has actually negotiated them on Twitter. JasonJHunter for instance.

 

[Job]

All of this is irrelevent.
Its just EU redtape playing out in a bubble.
Our strengths are what decide the outcome and remoaners are weakening us at the table.
A united front and a strong PM backed by a large majority is what we need.
We have neither thanks to the cry babies.

 

[Deebs]

The PM wasn't the one saying we should break the Good Friday Agreement or that we should be allowed to have different customs and regulations but then not enforce them on the border. Or that we could join the EEA only to leave it a couple of years later. Or that if we don't get a good deal out of the EU we should not honour our existing commitments.

This is absolutely signalling to other countries that your signature on a treaty isn't worth the paper it's written on.

The thing is, we should have just told the EU we are leaving. Period. No deal. The people want out. As for the GFA that was agreed when both countries were in the EU and it made it easy to sign up to an agreement without a hard border. Now when the UK leaves the EU the problem is a totally different one. If the UK was not part of the EU do you think that the GFA would have been signed by both the UK and Ireland? I suspect not. I would hate for the violence to return considering I live in Aldershot and we suffered with the IRA attacks, I remember the constant Military checkpoints.

I fully believe that we should pay our dues when we leave the EU. Btw, I qualify for both an Irish and an Italian passport if I want one. Have I applied? Nah. Will I? Not that I can see at this point. Also, I have 2 children and 1 grandson to consider, I don't know how they voted but they did ask me for advice. I told them to do their own research on the pros and cons and make their own decision. Not once have I ever attempted to influence someone into voting for what I believe and I never will.

 

[Job]

Not even remotely comparable. We would look like a country that has been in turmoil and trying to recover. We wouldn't look like untrustworthy spivs.

The terms we would get in new trade deals even after 10-20 years would be awful to factor this in. Follow anyone who has actually negotiated them on Twitter. JasonJHunter for instance.

C'mon you cant cherry pick your turnarounds.
Going for a second ref would make any decision made by the UK irrelevent...

 

[Wij]

A united front and a strong PM backed by a large majority is what we need.

International trade does not work that way. That's not how ANY OF THIS WORKS!

 

[Deebs]

Untrue. Article 50 is the only way to exit under existing treaties. We could have created a new treaty to exit. Article 50 was designed to give all the cards to the EU and not the exiting member. Invoking it was always going to lead here.

/edit: unless we'd abandoned the red-lines and gone with a Norway option.

@Wij what the fuck was Cameron doing in Europe trying to get us a better deal then before Brexit? He tried to get a better deal and the EU told him to fuck off.

 

[Job]

When I crossed the EU borders in my 20s..there were guards with handguns.
Then there were no borders checks
Now there are machine guns and armoured cars.
The Italian/France border on the med looks like checkpoint charlie now.

 

[Wij]

The thing is, we should have just told the EU we are leaving. Period. No deal. The people want out. As for the GFA that was agreed when both countries were in the EU and it made it easy to sign up to an agreement without a hard border. Now when the UK leaves the EU the problem is a totally different one. If the UK was not part of the EU do you think that the GFA would have been signed by both the UK and Ireland? I suspect not. I would hate for the violence to return considering I live in Aldershot and we suffered with the IRA attacks, I remember the constant Military checkpoints.

I fully believe that we should pay our dues when we leave the EU. Btw, I qualify for both an Irish and an Italian passport if I want one. Have I applied? Nah. Will I? Not that I can see at this point. Also, I have 2 children and 1 grandson to consider, I don't know how they voted but they did ask me for advice. I told them to do their own research on the pros and cons and make their own decision. Not once have I ever attempted to influence someone into voting for what I believe and I never will.

I'm not asking you to change your mind but I am giving you strong hints that no deal will be a lot worse than you think. The original point though was that some people WANT to change their mind and your proposed referendum choices wouldn't let them.

 

[Job]

International trade does not work that way. That's not how ANY OF THIS WORKS!

Its EXACTLY how it works.

 

[Wij]

@Wij what the fuck was Cameron doing in Europe trying to get us a better deal then before Brexit? He tried to get a better deal and the EU told him to fuck off.

Cameron was a fucking idiot on Europe. That doesn't mean I should accept my country being destroyed.

 

[Wij]

Its EXACTLY how it works.

Peak Dunning Kruger here.

It is a long drawn-out legal process of give and take and vested interest pandering.

It is not who has the biggest dick.

 

[Deebs]

I'm not asking you to change your mind but I am giving you strong hints that no deal will be a lot worse than you think. The original point though was that some people WANT to change their mind and your proposed referendum choices wouldn't let them.

I am happy to deal with anything that leaving the EU presents us with. If no deal is fucking bad for 10 years, fine. I will do what I need to do to weather the storm that allows us to break free of the shackles of the United States of Europe.

My point about the 2nd ref is to allow those to choose May's fucking bad deal or simply to tell the EU to fuckoff and walk away. We are leaving the EU, it is law (until overturned). So my referendum choices were made knowing that fact.

 

[Gwadien]

Cameron went over on Holiday and told the EU not to worry about it because Brexit would never happen.

He's loving life now though.

 

[Deebs]

Cameron was a fucking idiot on Europe. That doesn't mean I should accept my country being destroyed.

But, like the 2016 referendum, he was voted into power by the majority.

That doesn't mean I should accept my country being destroyed by staying in the EU.

 

[Wij]

Peak Dunning Kruger here.

It is a long drawn-out legal process of give and take and vested interest pandering.

It is not who has the biggest dick.

Example. Most trade deals have clauses in that you can't give better terms to another country without coming back and re-visiting this trade deal again. Otherwise goods could circumvent the original deal with two cheaper routes or with lower standards, making your original deal worthless. Therefore ever single line needs to be fanned out across the globe from one trade deal to another to assess the impact.

Countries do not consider the UK a special case in this. After the last two years we look like the most arsey country to deal with in the world. A country that refuses to accept reality and thinks that the terms of all agreements should be written entirely in our favour. Which trade negotiator would relish that?

 

[Wij]

I am happy to deal with anything that leaving the EU presents us with. If no deal is fucking bad for 10 years, fine. I will do what I need to do to weather the storm that allows us to break free of the shackles of the United States of Europe.

That's why YOU voted. Millions voted for other reasons. They want another say. You've got the result you want and don't want them to.

To break out the cliche again, they didn't put "10 YEARS OF ECONOMIC MISERY" on the side of a bus for good reason.

 

[Deebs]

Example. Most trade deals have clauses in that you can't give better terms to another country without coming back and re-visiting this trade deal again. Otherwise goods could circumvent the original deal with two cheaper routes or with lower standards, making your original deal worthless. Therefore ever single line needs to be fanned out across the globe from one trade deal to another to assess the impact.

Countries do not consider the UK a special case in this. After the last two years we look like the most arsey country to deal with in the world. A country that refuses to accept reality and thinks that the terms of all agreements should be written entirely in our favour. Which trade negotiator would relish that?

But again, that is the fault of the government and our shit policitians. The problem is that we are divided. We should have had a referendum on the EU a long time ago to understand the will of the people but every government was scared to. So now you have 40 years of resent to deal with.

 

[Deebs]

That's why YOU voted. Millions voted for other reasons. They want another say. You've got the result you want and don't want them to.

To break out the cliche again, they didn't put "10 YEARS OF ECONOMIC MISERY" on the side of a bus for good reason.

They can get their say again after we have left. The question was asked and answered by the people. Leave and then ask again if they want to rejoin.

Oh look, I voted for Labour but don't want them in power now seeing what they are doing to us, let's have a revote, sure, at the next opportunity. For now, you have to live with your vote, Labour. When the next opportunity comes about, vote for someone else.

 

[Bodhi]

The only people who want another vote are the people who don't like how the last one went. People's Vote my arse - who voted last time?

Squirrels?

 

[Gwadien]

The only people who want another vote are the people who don't like how the last one went. People's Vote my arse - who voted last time?

Squirrels?

You only don't want one because you know what the result will be

 

[Bodhi]

You only don't want one because you know what the result will be

17.4 million people being told their vote didn't count doesn't sound an appealing prospect if I'm honest.

 

[Wij]

17.4 million people being told their vote didn't count doesn't sound an appealing prospect if I'm honest.

Many of those 17.4 million are looking at the options left and thinking they didn't vote for either.

 

[Wij]

I am happy to deal with anything that leaving the EU presents us with. If no deal is fucking bad for 10 years, fine. I will do what I need to do to weather the storm that allows us to break free of the shackles of the United States of Europe.

The cure for ensuring the UK isn't in the USE doesn't have to be smashing all treaties. Why would you not support getting out of the political union but staying in the economic one, like EFTA? You're advocating a Tyler Durden solution for reasons that don't require it.

/edit: call me a remainer all you like but if we'd have gone for staying in the EEA I'd have accepted it. I'm not going to accept total destruction of our country because why the fuck should I. That wasn't on the ballot paper.

 

[Scouse]

17.4 million people being told their vote didn't count doesn't sound an appealing prospect if I'm honest.

Your vote always counts.

It's what you vote on that doesn't really matter.

Rich'll still be rich, poor will get poorer. Just more quickly.

 

[Wij]

Your vote always counts.

It's what you vote on that doesn't really matter.

Rich'll still be rich, poor will get poorer. Just more quickly.

That really doesn't further the debate tbh.

 

[Deebs]

The cure for ensuring the UK isn't in the USE doesn't have to be smashing all treaties. Why would you not support getting out of the political union but staying in the economic one, like EFTA? You're advocating a Tyler Durden solution for reasons that don't require it.

/edit: call me a remainer all you like but if we'd have gone for staying in the EEA I'd have accepted it. I'm not going to accept total destruction of our country because why the fuck should I. That wasn't on the ballot paper.

I would happily support a trade union where the rules ONLY apply to goods and nothing else. That is what we originally signed up for. Fuck everything else. It is an encroachment on our sovereignty.

Total destruction of our country? Can you actually prove that is going to happen? Again it is an unknown upon which you have hinged upon. Noone knows. Time will tell.

 

[Wij]

I would happily support a trade union where the rules ONLY apply to goods and nothing else. That is what we originally signed up for. Fuck everything else. It is an encroachment on our sovereignty.

Signing treaties means pooling sovereignty. It's a trade-off that you do because it's in your interests. The only completely sovereign person is a desert hermit. That's a fool's paradise. You make promises to other countries to get them to return the same to you. If you don't want to keep any promises then people won't be keeping any for you. No rights without responsibility. Basic civic society.

 

[Wij]

I would happily support a trade union where the rules ONLY apply to goods and nothing else. That is what we originally signed up for. Fuck everything else. It is an encroachment on our sovereignty.

Also, so the customs union is fine by that criteria. And the single market of goods but not services and movement of people. What specifically is wrong with the single market for services and labour?