Politics POLL: Brexit Withdrawal Agreement

[Deebs]

Signing treaties means pooling sovereignty. It's a trade-off that you do because it's in your interests. The only completely sovereign person is a desert hermit. That's a fool's paradise. You make promises to other countries to get them to return the same to you. If you don't want to keep any promises then people won't be keeping any for you. No rights without responsibility. Basic civic society.

No, there is a difference in agreeing on laws with regards to goods than laws which dictate how you run your country.

 

[Deebs]

Also, so the customs union is fine by that criteria. And the single market of goods but not services and movement of people. What specifically is wrong with the single market for services and labour?

The EU dictates how we run our country. That is wrong in my mind. Happy to make sure the goods we sell are safe but not happy that the EU can dictate rules on VAT for example.

 

[Scouse]

That really doesn't further the debate tbh.

Doesn't make what I said any less true.

The brexit debate, whilst serious on one level, frankly isn't going to destroy or make the country one way or another. - We're in the EU right now and life is shit for far too many.

Massive structural change will make a massive difference to people's lives. Brexit will make us worse off, yes. Don't doubt it. But it's a side-issue and a pantomime.

 

[Deebs]

Doesn't make what I said any less true.

The brexit debate, whilst serious on one level, frankly isn't going to destroy or make the country one way or another. - We're in the EU right now and life is shit for far too many.

Massive structural change will make a massive difference to people's lives. Brexit will make us worse off, yes. Don't doubt it. But it's a side-issue and a pantomime.

In your opinion. Yes, it maybe rough for a while but that does not mean it will be rough forever. Please leave the rhetoric behind.

 

[Scouse]

In your opinion. Yes, it maybe rough for a while but that does not mean it will be rough forever. Please leave the rhetoric behind.

It's already been the worst economic decade ever. Wage stagnation and productivity drops mean that we've gone backwards since the crash. Brexit will compound that in the medium term. Long term? - well, if we *do* leave properly (we won't) then we'll have the chance to make something of this country.

But we won't. The controlling interest is still in the hands of capital. And turkeys don't vote for christmas.

 

[Deebs]

It's already been the worst economic decade ever. Wage stagnation and productivity drops mean that we've gone backwards since the crash. Brexit will compound that in the medium term. Long term? - well, if we *do* leave properly (we won't) then we'll have the chance to make something of this country.

But we won't. The controlling interest is still in the hands of capital. And turkeys don't vote for christmas.

The crash was not due to Brexit. I know that times will be tough for a while and I have said, on numerous occasions, we have a spineless PM. To leave properly is to say to the EU fuck off, we take the no deal route.

 

[Wij]

The EU dictates how we run our country. That is wrong in my mind. Happy to make sure the goods we sell are safe but not happy that the EU can dictate rules on VAT for example.

Rules yes but rates not so much. Also that's an EU not single market thing. Switzerland complies on some areas but not others. Not much of an argument against the single market and how does it ruin any thing anyway?

 

[Deebs]

Rules yes but rates not so much. Also that's an EU not single market thing. Switzerland complies on some areas but not others. Not much of an argument against the single market and how does it ruin any thing anyway?

Um not sure what you are reading but I am happy for a single market where the rules ONLY apply to goods and nothing else. That is not what we have today. We did have this 40 years ago though.

 

[Job]

Peak Dunning Kruger here.

It is a long drawn-out legal process of give and take and vested interest pandering.

It is not who has the biggest dick.

Your always pointing out how weak and irrelevent little England will not get a good deal against the might of the EU.
Thats all you hear on the Guard comments...we cant stand up to them...etc..etc.
So I say we are powerful and its.

It doesnt work like that.

 

[Wij]

Your always pointing out how weak and irrelevent little England will not get a good deal against the might of the EU.
Thats all you hear on the Guard comments...we cant stand up to them...etc..etc.
So I say we are powerful and its.

It doesnt work like that.

That's because it doesn't. Listen to someone who does trade deals fora living like Jason Hunter.

 

[Scouse]

The crash was not due to Brexit. I know that times will be tough for a while and I have said, on numerous occasions, we have a spineless PM. To leave properly is to say to the EU fuck off, we take the no deal route.

I never said the crash was due to brexit. It's nothing to do with brexit. But what we're going to do is follow the worst decade in economic memory with another (at least) a decade with the same again.

But either way the point I'm making is - it's not going to make wholesale changes to our living standards anyway unless we make wholesale reforms. Brexit won't achieve that.

 

[Wij]

Um not sure what you are reading but I am happy for a single market where the rules ONLY apply to goods and nothing else. That is not what we have today. We did have this 40 years ago though.

What's wrong with the market in services? They are traded. Having common rules makes the market work better. Same argument as goods.

 

[Deebs]

I never said the crash was due to brexit. It's nothing to do with brexit. But what we're going to do is follow the worst decade in economic memory with another (at least) a decade with the same again.

But either way the point I'm making is - it's not going to make wholesale changes to our living standards anyway unless we make wholesale reforms. Brexit won't achieve that.

Can you quote credible sources that we will have another decade of shit like the decade following 2008? I really don't get it, a vote was cast, much like a GE, christ I fucking hate it everytime Labour wins a GE but you don't see me making a fucking song and dance cos it was not what I wanted.

 

[Job]

Trade deals is just social engineering anyway.

How the fuck can the EU base their club on trade deals in a global world.

 

[Deebs]

What's wrong with the market in services? They are traded. Having common rules makes the market work better. Same argument as goods.

Rules which apply to goods and nothing else. Read my sentence many times so you don't ask me silly questions about other aspects of the EU.

 

[Wij]

Rules which apply to goods and nothing else. Read my sentence many times so you don't ask me silly questions about other aspects of the EU.

It doesn't answer my question. What's wrong with having rules that ensure that insurance policies can't just welch on their obligations to pay out for no good reason for instance?

 

[Deebs]

It doesn't answer my question. What's wrong with having rules that ensure that insurance policies can't just welch on their obligations to pay out for no good reason for instance?

I am not sure you understand. I am for rules on goods but not on anything else. I don't want some twat in Brussels telling me I have to increase VAT or that our markets cannot advertise imperial weights.

 

[Wij]

Can you quote credible sources that we will have another decade of shit like the decade following 2008? I really don't get it, a vote was cast, much like a GE, christ I fucking hate it everytime Labour wins a GE but you don't see me making a fucking song and dance cos it was not what I wanted.

Ok. Here isa prominent leaver explaining why 'going back to WTO' is bollox and would leave us fucked:

What’s wrong with the WTO Option?

Seriously. Follow Pete North. I don't like him but he knows his stuff and explains exactly what a disaster no deal would be.

 

[Deebs]

Ok. Here isa prominent leaver explaining why 'going back to WTO' is bollox and would leave us fucked:

What’s wrong with the WTO Option?

The point is @Wij I don't give a fuck. I just want us out of the EU as I have outlined in my earlier messages. Can you not understand that?

 

[DaGaffer]

The thing is, we should have just told the EU we are leaving. Period. No deal. The people want out. As for the GFA that was agreed when both countries were in the EU and it made it easy to sign up to an agreement without a hard border. Now when the UK leaves the EU the problem is a totally different one. If the UK was not part of the EU do you think that the GFA would have been signed by both the UK and Ireland? I suspect not. I would hate for the violence to return considering I live in Aldershot and we suffered with the IRA attacks, I remember the constant Military checkpoints.

I fully believe that we should pay our dues when we leave the EU. Btw, I qualify for both an Irish and an Italian passport if I want one. Have I applied? Nah. Will I? Not that I can see at this point. Also, I have 2 children and 1 grandson to consider, I don't know how they voted but they did ask me for advice. I told them to do their own research on the pros and cons and make their own decision. Not once have I ever attempted to influence someone into voting for what I believe and I never will.

So throw Northern Ireland under the bus because it's a bit inconvenient? Good to know. No wonder "perfidious Albion" is such a well-known phrase outside the UK.

 

[Deebs]

So throw Northern Ireland under the bus because it's a bit inconvenient? Good to know. No wonder "perfidious Albion" is such a well-known phrase outside the UK.

I never said that. I have lived under the fear of the IRA living in the home of the British Army. Where the fuck did I say throw NI under the bus?

 

[Wij]

I am not sure you understand. I am for rules on goods but not on anything else. I don't want some twat in Brussels telling me I have to increase VAT or that our markets cannot advertise imperial weights.

We have our own vat rates. Road signs are in miles per hour. We buy beer in pints. How big a deal is it and it's it worth millions of job losses?

Also pints are goods.

 

[DaGaffer]

I never said that. I have lived under the fear of the IRA living in the home of the British Army. Where the fuck did I say throw NI under the bus?

Because if you abandon the GFA at the altar of Brexit that's exactly what you would be doing.

 

[Deebs]

Because if you abandon the GFA at the altar of Brexit that's exactly what you would be doing.

See my previous message about the GFA.

 

[Deebs]

We have our own vat rates. Road signs are in miles per hour. We buy beer in pints. How big a deal is it and it's it worth millions of job losses?

Also pints are goods.

Millions of job losses? Source please.

 

[Wij]

Millions of job losses? Source please.

From the government's own figures about the impact on GDP:

The Government's Own Brexit Analysis Says The UK Will Be Worse Off In Every Scenario Outside The EU

And then extrapolating from the job losses in previous recessions. No figure is reliable here but it will be carnage.

 

[Deebs]

From the government's own figures about the impact on GDP:

The Government's Own Brexit Analysis Says The UK Will Be Worse Off In Every Scenario Outside The EU

And then extrapolating from the job losses in previous recessions. No figure is reliable here but it will be carnage.

But what about the reduction in unemployment since 2016? Does that not count?

 

[DaGaffer]

See my previous message about the GFA.

Leaving with no deal (your preference) breaks the GFA, returns Ireland to a hard border and fucks NI right up. It also fucks up the Republic but the next time the British give a shit about that will be the first, so that's not a consideration worth worrying about.

Here's the thing, the British (and by that I really mean the English) really don't care about Northern Ireland; (they barely care about Scotland or Wales); the level of ignorance shown about Britain's obligations (both before and after the vote) has been spectacularly ignorant. Before the vote the problems with the border were repeatedly pointed out by the Irish press and politicians, and ignored by the leave camp because Britain is so super-special and Brexit would be a doddle.

 

[Wij]

Leaving with no deal (your preference) breaks the GFA, returns Ireland to a hard border and fucks NI right up. It also fucks up the Republic but the next time the British give a shit about that will be the first, so that's not a consideration worth worrying about.

Here's the thing, the British (and by that I really mean the English) really don't care about Northern Ireland; (they barely care about Scotland or Wales); the level of ignorance shown about Britain's obligations (both before and after the vote) has been spectacularly ignorant. Before the vote the problems with the border were repeatedly pointed out by the Irish press and politicians, and ignored by the leave camp because Britain is so super-special and Brexit would be a doddle.

Don't count us all in that. Many of us do :/

And yes. We would be obliged under WTO terms to enforcea border.

 

[Deebs]

As I mentioned before, if the UK was not in the EU when the GFA was drafted, fuck knows how it would have passed. I, personally, care for the Union and would not want it to break up. You say British but mean English, you have only been in Ireland for a few years, I have lived in Aldershot for 42 years and was a prime target for the IRA. Your experience of living under a threat of terrorism is what exactly?

Again, I think the current government is out of touch. That is not the same the will of the people is thinking.